morallity and employment
 

i was reading on another thread regarding morallity and employment

i decided to start a new thread rather than hijack that one

if you where on benefits, and they told you you had to take a job, that was against your moral/religous beliefs, would this be acceptable?

would those beliefs, outweigh those of "claiming benefits", some have no moral problem having state handouts, whilst others dont see it as a right and do have.

at what stage do your morals have to take a"back seat", or would they never and irrelevant of the consequence you would always take the moral high ground ?

Re: morallity and employment
 

I don't have any religious beliefs. I don't draw my morals from religious scripture either. So I guess the answer would be. Yes I would.

But putting myself into the mind of say a Muslim hving to work at Slingers. If I was that person. I think it would be justifiable to say no

But what jobs out there are immoral for someone outside of religion. Working as bartender in a stripclub?
Being a guitar tech for the dude from take that?(highly immoral haha)

how many potentially immorral jobs are out there?

Re: morallity and employment
 

Vegan in a shoe shop?

Re: morallity and employment
 

During my working life, I did things that some would say were against morality(I could have invoked a conscience clause, but I didn't)......how did I square them with my conscience? I felt that if I didn't do them then someone else would....and perhaps do it with much less care and lives could be put at risk.
I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Re: morallity and employment
 

Rob...while you aren't religious...most morals stem from religion....and are sort of ingrained on us as children.

Re: morallity and employment
 

Do they? or where they just hijacked by religions to make them (the religions) work better?
:confused:
I brought my children up without any religious guidance, but they do have morals.
:)

Re: morallity and employment
 

but there is the arguement that through you compliance it perpetuates the "thing" that you feel you have to do.

if everyone took a moral stance, then there wouldnt be anyone else to do it

4 vegetarians, starving to death, have a pig.........

Re: morallity and employment
 

4 omnivores starving to death, have a vegetarian.........

Re: morallity and employment
 

I guess it would depend on how desperate I was for money (that is benefits not being stopped, or an actual wage).
I have been unemployed before, when I was not up to doing my usual job. I didn't claim benefits-it might be seen as a moral highground why not-I just thought I am able bodied and I am not totally skint, so I am not sponging off the government
Lol!
There are loads.Well -I am a vegan, I have been vegan 12 years and not eaten meat since I was 11. If I was put to work in a slaughterhouse, butchers, McDonalds, leather shop, fish market, any shop that encourages cosmetic testing (such as certain make up stalls or working for a corporation such as unilever) then I would likely appear in the Daily Mail shortly following.

Other examples I can think of, anybody who is precious about sex-working in any part of adult entertainment.
Pacifists working for anything to do with the army or other armed forces?



There are more absolute personal ones as well-we were speaking about the H'sborough disaster on another thread-am pretty sure none of the victims would be happy working in a shop that sold The S*n, or working for the same-just an example. People whose relatives have died from lung cancer, working in a cigarette factory? Working in an off license if you're strictly teetotal.
There's a line between morality and pride. Not taking a job you are over-qualified for is the latter!

Lol by that definition I have no morals! :D
Actually though, I often say veganism IS a religion as by the sociological definition. It's a set of beliefs and values that people live their life by, collectively or otherwise. It amounts to the same. It was a personal decision though.

Good question/good thread! :)

Re: morallity and employment
 

I am unemployed, I do claim, I am not sponging off the Government, I have contributed all my life I'm taking out a little of what I've put in.
If you are entitled to claim the system is there to allow you to claim, it is those that have a very narrow outlook that consider all the unemployed to be spongers and scroungers because it makes them feel better having someone to blame, this, I consider to be morally wrong.

Re: morallity and employment
 

My son's girlfriend, Martina, was a vegetarian and tried to be a vegan for some time -in the end she had a load of problems with allergies and her health was suffering (she's intollerant to zinc anmong other things) so her doctor advised her to return to a "normal" diet without many things which contain zinc - she will now eat lean meat but nothing on the bone or with fat -sort of squeamish I suppose. Her reason for becoming vegetarian was a moral one against the battery rearing of animals for food and connected mis-treatment.

You say you are a vegan - was it a conscious choice or just something that happened over time. Do you wear leather, do you eat cheese made with rennet or just the veggie sort, will you drink milk, I suppose you won't eat eggs. Not trying to be polemic just to understand how you can follow through such a difficult choice of lifestyle...

Forgot to mention I have a friend who gave up eating meat as a student 'cos she coulnt afford it and has never eaten it since (30yrs) -that's what I mean by it just happenng over time...

Re: morallity and employment
 

The hard part in that case is getting past the interview. My partner's been for jobs where he's known a lot more than the interviewer, through experience as he has no qualifications at all. He would gladly have taken such a job but usually got nowhere once the interviewer realised that my other half knew what he was talking about and posed a threat to the interviewer if he had got the job.

Re: morallity and employment
 

Not pride, perhaps it's morally wrong to take a job you are over-qualified for?

You take this job and someone less qualified but with a better mindset to be able to do the job is thrown onto the dole instead of you.

Re: morallity and employment
 

Well said Less, you are in the position that my partner has been in several times during his working life . You are entitled to the measly sum doled out by the government, it's not sponging. Having read your recent blog it is all too easy for employers to take advantage of folks in your situation.

I do find it difficult however to condone the attitude of those who, having been out of work for whatever reason for x number of years, keep on producing children for the state to support and then demand a bigger house for the family while they all sit at home watching sky tv with a fag in their hand. Yes I now that's a stereotype but I guess the benefits system has made this a lifestyle choice for them while making it hard for singles and couples who want to work.

Re: morallity and employment
 

I worded it wrong-if *I* had been on the dole, when I could walk into a job VERY easily, and I had money and means of getting money if I needed some, *I* would have been sponging.

Many others also do stay on the dole when they could work and they do not make an effort to, preferring to not work. However I truly don't think everybody on the dole is sponging, apologies if it sounded like that.

Benefits are there for those who need them, and when I was unemployed, I didn't need them.

If you don't look after your diet (even if you do eat animal products) you can end up deficient. It's easy to not be deficient in anything on a vegan diet, but you do have to know what you are doing particularly when your body is used to certain things that it is no longer getting from the same sources. It was a conscious choice, due to morality. The meat industry=the dairy industry. Animals die at the hands of both and I am an animal lover hence my decision.

No, vegans don't wear leather, use dairy or consume eggs.

You aren't being polemic, however you are making assumptions. :) 'Such a difficult...'
It isn't difficult for me, at all. It's second nature. :)

[
Yes I'd say that's a possible scenario..

^^That also drives me nuts. I know the 'fat cats' generally are as much to blame as the type of people who behave like that,and I won't deny it probably is the fact I am more exposed to the latter, that makes me so angry about it. Then again, how many people would go to work, to get less money , than they get for NOT going to work? I think that happens often with the current benefits system.

Re: morallity and employment
 

Yes, it is a stereotype, yes, these people exist but they are a very small minority, it is however easier to lump all the unemployed together with this minority because as I have said before, it is far easier to use the unemployed as scapegoats than it is to invest in real jobs, morally wrong but oh boy, how the smug people among those lucky enough to have never been unemployed love to jump on the bandwagon and put the blame on the unfortunate.

Re: morallity and employment
 

An assumption that most would probably agree with -it is not an easy choice to follow through to the end with absolute scruple, so well done if you find it easy -I would not.

So many of the products we use regularly do have some animal content so it's almost impossible to be completely vegan in a certain sense.
Just a simple example: a book - some of the inks may have an animal origin as well as the glues used in bindings.

Re: morallity and employment
 

I do find it very easy. I think if you feel strongly enough about it, then it becomes second nature. It is an assumption though.
And I agree, I would go so far as to say depending on definitions , it is almost impossible to be 100% vegan. But I do my absolute best and that's all I am capable of :)

Re: morallity and employment
 

Other people would do it for money.......money seems to transcend morals.
You might argue that I also did it for money, but my input for my wage was across a far wider range...what I mean by that is, the person who would do this thing for money would do only that...and with little care for the outcome.
I cannot say more.

Re: morallity and employment
 

i seem to remember something about Martin Mcguiness, he was claiming benefits, although he had been elected as a british mp, but refused to take up the post on political grounds, but still continued to claim benefits

and gerry adams was also claiming benefits, as "unemployed barman"

should you be allowed to refuse work and continue claiming benefits, and where do we draw the line?
religious belief? political beliefs? moral beliefs?, are these things not the same?

and how far would thinks have to go,before we "ditched" our morals, who was it that said"we are only nine meals from anarchy'

Re: morallity and employment
 

Less, there have been religions from the beginning of time...I'm not just talking about Christianity here, but pagan religions that preceded it...and without recognising it they have insidiously permeated into our lives over the millenia...even in the homes where no religion is practised, the children will be taught right from wrong.

Re: morallity and employment
 

Right and Wrong are not religious.

If anything, religion is the opposite of Right and wrong, how many Religious leaders of all faiths will encourage bigotry and murder in the name of their God?

Compare that to the number of people brought up without 'religion' that can see when our 'betters' are just as evil as any other amoral twisted being?

Re: morallity and employment
 

As an omnivore I have no qualms about eating animal flesh.

For purely selfish health reasons I care about how the animal lived before I ate it.
So I eat 'free range and organic', because a happy healthy animal, killed humanely, is more nutritious.

(now on to the 'new age' bit);)
I believe that plants have sensory feelings too.

Experimentation - Plants Have Feelings Too

So if your only reason for being vegan is your concern for animal welfare, the I suggest you try
breatharianism

Re: morallity and employment
 

i think we all belong to a "social morality", but then i also think we have our own "personal morality"

the social one for things that affect the rest of society, and then those that would prick at your own guilt.

the social ones are without doubt shaped historically by religion, but initially where they not formed by personal, sort of chicken and egg i suppose

Re: morallity and employment
 

It's not my only reason but it is my main reason.Sentient is not the same as having sensory ability-I have seen that article before as I do research whenever I get the time and am lucky enough to know some vegans with far more knowledge than I. But as we ARE actually an animal, and not a plant, I am very much more okay with eating plants than I am eating other animals.
Thank you for the suggestion though :)

Re: morallity and employment
 

that is it in a nutshell CFCR.......Less you miss my point entirely.
Men do (in the name of religion) things that they cannot do any other way...it isn't what the religion promotes, but mans interpretation of the religion.

Even social conscience is based(way back in the mists of time) in some religion or other...not necessarily Christianity.
I'm not promoting religion...just offering my opinions.

Re: morallity and employment
 

Are yeh sure? theres one or two cabbages on here.:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:

Re: morallity and employment
 

Perhaps it isn't that I've missed your point, perhaps it is that I've ignored your point because I consider it flawed?

Re: morallity and employment
 

OK then.....if that is how you want to see it......I'm fine with that.

Re: morallity and employment
 

Just because you are unable to perceive what the plant experiences doesn't mean that it doesn't have 'conciousness'.

Re: morallity and employment
 

I won't be the one to try and persuade you otherwise.

Re: morallity and employment
 

lolol!
That is true. We are unable to perceive many things about plants. However we CAN perceive things about animals, they demonstrate their feelings and ability to feel pain and suffering very similarly to how we do. As I KNOW animals suffer, I make my moral choices.
I do not KNOW that about plants, it may be that they feel as much as animals do, or perhaps they do not. That's the difference for me.

Re: morallity and employment
 

As far as I can remember plants don't have any kind of nervous system so they don't "feel" anything. They do move towards light and send out roots to search for water and nutrients but they don't do this "consciously". They are extremely complex and quite fascinating but they don't have a consciousness.

Re: morallity and employment
 

We do seem to have got lost in the many diverse opinions more of lifestyles than morality and employment.
The simple answer I suppose is that if you feel something is morally wrong and you refuse the job you may have to face further consequences such as having your money stopped for refusing work.
There are many people within engineering that wouldn't for example work in the armaments industry, that is their moral right, I don't know if it is their legal right though.
I have no qualms so far as that is concerned I would build anything from a control panel for a drinks production soft drinks or alcoholic line, to the doomsday machine, so I wouldn't be placed in that dilemma, I wouldn't condemn someone else that took the view that this would be morally wrong for them so long as they didn't try to stop me from working and putting food on the table.
:)

Re: morallity and employment
 

This is what I believe also. I am open to new learnings, and if it comes about that plants DO feel more than we think, then I will have new decisions to make.
We do know that animals have consciousness and feelings , though. That's what makes the difference for me :)

Re: morallity and employment
 

That was what your botany degree taught you at the time you took it.

The Extrasensory perception of plants - YouTube

A lot depends on how broad your view is of 'conciousness'.

Re: morallity and employment
 

Chemical reactions and a few electrical impuses don't amount to a consciousness as far as I can see -interesting documentary though - plants are amazing and varied things and are absolutely necessary in the general scheme of life as we know it.

Re: morallity and employment
 

What's to do? didn't the thread go along the way the starter planned?
Was he expecting a big get together of we hate the unemployed and instead got a majority that would rather talk about anything else?
It's a difficult subject, but surely, we can discuss 'morallity and employment', no matter how it's spelt?

Re: morallity and employment
 

where on this planet, do you see my opening statement as an invitation/encouragement of "lets attack the unemployed"?

as i stated it came directly from a post that one member had made in another thread, and it raised a question, i didnt want to hijack that thread so started a new one.

as for the current way the thread has gone, i have no issue at all with thread wanders, any reference i make to them, is a nod to those members who like to use the term when they dont want to answer something, or just use t as an excuse to end a discussion.

i have been unemployed, i have had help from the government in raising my 4 children, i also believe strongly in a cradle to the grave system.

i Have spent more of the tax payers money, than i have paid in (probably, when you take into consideration benefits,education,health**

so why would i want to have a big get together of the unemployed?

or was it just another of your classic baiting/trolling?

Re: morallity and employment
 

I hadn't, but you've left the thread alone, it could be a good thread if it's kept going.

I was just giving you that spur to continue what you started. not so much baiting or trolling just wondered why when you started such an interesting thread did you leave it alone?

P.S. I in a sentence aught to be a capital.
;)
:D

Re: morallity and employment
 

:hehetable Watch out for the grammar nazis. No thread is safe

C'Mon lets not start arguing again. Happy thoughts.

Re: morallity and employment
 

ought it?;):D

Re: morallity and employment
 

Bullshine, start a thread that had potential then back off?
What good is that?
I don't want to argue, I want the thread kept alive, come on starter give us more thoughts.

Re: morallity and employment
 

2 reference to spelling and grammar, i am not applying for a job or writing a thesis, therefore lots of mistakes go through, also send a lot via iPhone and that can be fun too, however what does it have to do with anything, when the sentiment of what i said still got there, i am sure i have read on this forum that we dont bother about spelling and grammar, its a little petty dont you think, or as i say its just more baiting, guess we get bored when people get banned.

and it was more of a troll, questioning if it hadnt gone they way id hoped, then making up my hidden agenda

so there you go, work done for the evening, you can put your feet up now, i bit (well had a little nibble);)

Re: morallity and employment
 

Was equally aimed at churchfc :hidewall:

Re: morallity and employment
 

So churchfcrules do you have any moral/religious afflictions that would stop you going into certain jobs

Re: morallity and employment
 

Had you bit, we wouldn't have the useless diatribe as seen above, you would have realised that in a long winded tongue in cheek manner I'm asking you for more input, it started off well wandered along the way (always a good sign) but was left alone to fester and die.
It needs YOU to ensure it grows into a 50 pager.
Now stop acting like a child, and get back to what you started.
:D

Re: morallity and employment
 

see a direct question, now thats how you keep a thread alive!

dont suppose i have any that spring to mind, i was married at 18, and had 4 kids by the time i was 25, i have done some 'orrible jobs in that time, and my primary thought is, it puts shoes on my kids feet!,
i believe we all have a sell out price, as i am fond of saying we are all only 9 meals away from anarchy.

i am now in a position i can afford a little more morality, no kids left at school, only one at home, thank the heavens no grandchildren yet, so not as great a need for me to be "the breadwinner", so i could allow "ethics" to creep in more.

currently im a dj, work weekends and help people spend more of their money behind the bar, thats my job, to make people spend their cash on alcohol, which isnt good for them, or they might be spending their electric bill money, or even the shopping money, but i don't let that worry me.

however, if i was working in an ammunitions factory, that directly supplied boy soldiers in africa, i like to think that now i could say no, but when all the kids were little, i probably would have been clocking on at 6am to get some overtime in!

Re: morallity and employment
 

No it isn't the thread was dead until I poked you in the eye with a long stick, NOW, the thread is just waking up again.
:cool:

Re: morallity and employment
 

ever thought of saying the very same things without the need to try and put the other person down?

you may find it encourages less arguments, and more debate, so people they feel like they can post and keep a thread alive, instead of thinking oh i better not post if i cant be **sed checking my grammar

i will enter into a debate with anyone, who can behave like an adult, and you sir accuse me of being childish, please dont let this thread,if you believe it to have the potential to be "a 50 pager", dont let it degrade into me and you squabbling.

thats not to say keep it on thread, just drop the point scoring, no need

Re: morallity and employment
 

Threads only stay alive while people want to post to them....and even a thread wander(which could be considered to be about morals...although not the morals of employment) will keep a thread 'live' and in some cases will even add to the general interest.
People also have lives outside of Accyweb...these can be something that gets in the way of posting....so don't be too hasty in condemning the thread starter...or for that matter those who meander the thread about a bit.

Re: morallity and employment
 

Good post agree wi most of it, What i can't understand though is how the fact money troubles are gone/reduced etc changes a persons morality.:confused: I am retired had many jobs n a fair few were real crap, I have never considered morals only ever considered what was best fer me family, if some don't like that......tough. If yeh work fer "Any" firm, they certainly have no morals about binning yeh, family or no family "Fact" So why those who earn less than those who run these places should have morals,is beyond me. Have quite a few individual morals, but out else No-Way.

Re: morallity and employment
 

No point scoring just look at how long the thread was left dormant until I woke you up?
instead of hating my comments work with them, I'm smiling while I type this, I hope you are, because we've got the thread going, not yet in the right direction, that's your job, but at least thank's to me it is back in action.

Don't go down the route of what is adult and what isn't, if you do you won't like what I said about your Nazis comment in another thread.
:)

Re: morallity and employment
 

Well there is no money in the world that would pay me to work in an abattoir. Next time I'm in the jobcentre I'll ask em how that would affect JSA if I was offered a job in said establishment. (not that I'm claiming benefits :) )

Re: morallity and employment
 

let me expand a little cash, i didnt mean my morals standards changed, i meant my sell out point did, everyone has a sell out point

we would all do something we didnt agree with, depending on the circumstances, it doesnt mean your morals change it just means you can justify it, rid yourself of the guilt.

Re: morallity and employment
 

guilty spent lots of time in slaughterhouses, trained as a butcher at gateways up ossy when i was 16

Re: morallity and employment
 

I do not honestly reckon thats correct, everyone aint got a sell out point, most may have possibly,I have probably done quite a bit i wasn't happy or agree with, But whats done is done in my book n guilt aint part of the equation to me.

Re: morallity and employment
 

i have to disagree, brief example, i take it you dont agree with taking a life?

however, circumstances may change that and to save a loved one/your life, you would probably change that opinion.

and as for guilt, its part of being human, those without guilt tend to be labelled as a sociopath.

example, a normal person, driving down the road, has an accident and someone dies, even if there was nothing you coiuld do, you would still feel guilty and search for what ifs

Re: morallity and employment
 

Give him a chance, he only started the thread at 11am today, since then, he may have been at work, visiting relatives, out with the dog, watching TV, enjoying a nice Sunday dinner - as Mrs P says we all have lives outside of Accyweb and he's back online now, and other folk have posted in the meantime so its not dead by any means.

Re: morallity and employment
 

Thats sod all to do wi guilt oer employment, which i assumed cos of thread, thats what we were on about.:rolleyes:

Re: morallity and employment
 

i thought we had wandered and were talking about morality in general, my mistake

however there would still be a certain degree of guilt, as i say if you can justify it there is no guilt, it doesnt have to be the type of job but the job itself

about 7 years ago, i was employed by a company that had me travelling around uk spending most nights away from home, plus i was a dj so worked weekends, and also setup the football club, at the time i felt guilty that mrs church, was left to look after the children on her own most of the time, but justified it by earning money, but it got to a stage where it was to much, and i resigned, best job i ever had, from payscale to responsabillity, but they thought they "owned me"

i did carry on working for them but only as a self employed contractor, because the guilt had got too much!

i was going against my own morality, of being there for my kids, and justifying it with money, although for a time i was seduced by the dark side, i brought myself back:)

Re: morallity and employment
 

I missed much of me kids growing up, through work, Many blokes did, Late wife did a damn good job wi em, I can say ive been a little sad oer missing certain things wi em, but certainly don't feel guilty,never did,Don't understand why yeh should,its called life.:)

Re: morallity and employment
 

Correct cashy i have had the same problem myself having worked away a lot including working abroad. It isnt good but as cashy says its life.

Re: morallity and employment
 

normal 9-5 stuff yeah, but when your hardly ever around, i was pretty much on call 24/7 to go anywhere in uk, mainly north of birmingham, scotland, ulster and ireland.

sometimes i would drive for 3 hours to get home for a couple of hours then drive off again for another 3 hours, and do an 18 hour shift somewhere, longest shift i did was 25 hours.
so when i was at home, i wasn't "really there", yes its life but its quality of life

and it should be work to live, not live to work, no matter how much money you make you will never buy back that precious time of your kids growing up

Re: morallity and employment
 

Rubbish never done 9-5 Did 7 days 12 hour shifts when kids were young. plus i was a D.J. as many know fer near 30 yrs as well.

Re: morallity and employment
 

It is good if you can spend time with your children as they grow up, but for many this is a luxury that they cannot afford...and what is more important ....a roof over their heads, bills paid, food on the table and clothes on their backs.......or spending time with them?
A child who knows his/her father is working so that they can be fed and clothed still feels the presence of their dad, and also it makes them see that things do not come easily...they have to be earned.

Re: morallity and employment
 

so whats rubbish, how i felt about my family?

you justified your own actions, and didnt have any guilt over working 7 12 hour shifts a week, that is personal to you, i wouldnt dream of questioning your justification, its personal to you.

by the same token, i dont see how you can dismiss my own feelings on the subject, when as i say its a personal opinion?

it just reinforces my point of the justification/guilt, you could justify it i couldn't, there are a few more "issues" at the time, that are too personal to go into on an open forum, they did however concern "quality of family life", and caused me guilt, that led directly to me resigning from a job, so whats rubbish?

Re: morallity and employment
 

Yeh really got hang ups mate,:rolleyes: The rubbish comment was not how yeh feel about yer family, as anyone wi a grain of sense will see, it was about yer 9-5 inference, Its a waste of time trying to converse wi you n i should have taken me first instinct n ignored yeh.:rolleyes:

Re: morallity and employment
 

Nothing 'Rubbish' about it. You make your choices, and hope they are the right ones.
I have a sneaking suspicion that you are a lot younger than Cashy.
I think child rearing was seen to be the mothers job in our era(nothing metrosexual about the chaps then).......I am of a similar age to Cashy......well my body is....I am only 14 in my head :D.

Re: morallity and employment
 

then vote with yer feet ad hit that ignore button

when you start a statement with rubbish it usually infers you are "rubbishing someones statement", however i gave you the benefit and questioned what you was refering to when using the word rubbish.

and i have no hang up, that im afraid is you, as you have stated previously you dislike me, and hold me in distain, therfore you always attatch the negative to anything i say, always "assume" i mean something negative.

but thats fine, i dont mind, stick to that first instinct and ignore me


and yes margaret you are probably right, as i say i am probably at least a generation away, and attitudes were different, my dads view was more that of cashman.

Re: morallity and employment
 

[QUOTE=churchfcrules;1016683]normal 9-5 stuff yeah, but when your hardly ever around, i was pretty much on call 24/7 to go anywhere in uk, mainly north of birmingham, scotland, ulster and ireland.

/QUOTE]

Was rubbishing yer insinuation that i had been a 9-5 man, Thats not negative its what yeh insinuated, n as fer telling me to vote wi me feet n hit the ignore button, its never been my way, i can easily ignore yeh without that, even though yeh have given the order master, it aint gonna happen.:rolleyes:

Re: morallity and employment
 

This kind of hit home with me..Sorry if this is a thread wander, I had my own key from age of 7, there was Never anybody in when I got in from school and I often wondered seriously what the point of me, was? When my Mum got home from work at 7-8 pm (career woman) and my Dad returned from wherever neither said much to me anyway. I agree definitely that kids need to know things do not come easy and money has to be made-do not think unemployed parents are a good role model for example but, there needs to be a balance somewhere.


^^This, if you start a thread I don't think it means you have to sit at your desk all day waiting to see if others reply so you can be there to comment...?:confused: :confused:

My job probably denotes questionable morals, I'm lucky enough to be a bit of a miser and I don't have many responsibilities aside from vehicles, a dog and rodents! If money got bad for some reason though, I think my morals wouldn't let me go any 'further' so to speak. That's perhaps something other than morals?

Re: morallity and employment
 

[QUOTE=cashman;1016703]no i only implied it if you took my comment as negative, i was talking in general terms, i wouldnt have implied you were only 9-5 without knowing anything about you, but if you interpret everything i say as negative, same argument i suppose as your rubbish comment, only i allowed you to explain that because i wasnt clear what you was saying, your a bit more grouchy than me and just jump on in there.

Re: morallity and employment
 

so if and when you have children, on the moral scales, where will you fall, quality of life, or amount of money?

Re: morallity and employment
 

planning on watching a film in bout 20 mins if thats ok with everyone, red lights if anyone is interested, couple glasses of cider, so shant be able to keep the thread alive im afraid, if anyone feels like, giving it a little bit of mouth to mouth now n again for me that would be great,

When mine were younger - money. Now they are older - quality. You can never buy it back

Re: morallity and employment
 

I would argue the fact that your job promotes questionable morals. Morals to a certain extent are subjective and I personally see nothing wrong with lap dancing. On the other hand, I once had a job over 40 years ago working for Accrington Corporation as a rodent control operative - ie, chucking rat poison down drains, which I'm sure you'd regard as highly immoral!

Re: morallity and employment
 

my dad worked for corpporation in 70s

Re: morallity and employment
 

Doubt if I'd know him as I only worked there for a 6 week summer job in '70 and '71. The regular blokes tended to regard us as bleedin' students who didn't know their arse from their elbows...and they were probably right!

Re: morallity and employment
 

If I had an ideal situation, I would have both! Either a breadwinner (me or my partner, depending on who had most earning potential OR if I was single and could work part time hours for enough money, or my partner could do that, or we both could do that. I'm lucky that it isn't much of a worry to me-and also I really don't envision children in my future at all.
What?!You're leaving YOUR thread?! :D :)
It just demonstrates personal opinion doesn't it. I'm not daft enough to think that rats should just be left to overtake a town, of course it makes me sad, though if I think about painful deaths of animals. Ideally they shouldn't be a problem, but litter, fast food outlets, throwaway society, supermarket ruling meaning that all unsold food has to be chucked...Leaves rats with an ideal environment in which to thrive, breed. I do blame a lot of it on humans. I blame most things on humans!

I wrote my first thesis on pornography and the feminist argument that it encourages rape. I argued predominantly against that opinion, that it does not and in some cases could actually prevent a rapist from acting on his/her pulsions-if it were found that lapdancing is of the same genre of 'adult entertainment' then it could be argued that it is actually a moralistic occupation (note this isn't MY opinion, I am just brainstorming here).
I sound far fetched I know, the point I am trying to make is sometimes a job that could be seen as unjust, there is often another side to it...Opposing that.

Re: morallity and employment
 

got up to get a drink lol

thought would carry out some cpr

i see your reasoning, and dont worry i often will argue the case that is not my opinion also, but i think that also comes into the justification/guilt thing i referred to, it also must be based on the primary motive, if the primary motive is money, is it fair to then use a secondary motive as an argument/justification?

Re: morallity and employment
 

I suppose the feminist argument is that lap dancing encourages men to regard women as sex objects and therefore makes them likely to commit rape. Personally I think that's a load of bunkum and the sort of bloke that's going to commit rape will do it, lap dancing or no lap dancing.

The other argument from the "moral majority" types is that lap dancing ensnares dumb, desperate girls who are exploited and abused by their employers and customers. The fact that you're self-assured, educated and very much at ease with yourself blows that one out of the water! :D

Re: morallity and employment
 

I consider that the men who watch are the exploited ones:D

Re: morallity and employment
 

Yes I think that's human nature. If you do a job because you need a job, and you know you are going to get judged, you try find some other justifications or counter arguments. Not just with jobs, actually but everything. Not always, sometimes it's genuine and not a justification, but often.For example I smoked until recently.Always American Spirit organic tobacco but I am actually rejected from the vegan meetups that I used to go to because I smoked, therefore I am seen as a)damaging my immidiate environment, passive smoking etc, and animal testing is done constantly to gain knowledge on the minimisation of tobacco damage-so I am part of that. I used to justify it by saying things like 'I am destroying the stereotype that vegans are all health freaks, and I am a party animal who drinks and smokes-I show that vegans aren't all tree hugging teetotal hippies' and stuff. Sure I do beleive in all that stuff-but would I say it and emphasise it, if I wasn't already opposed for doing it?
Yes, I can see that argument-it works and it has a point to the uneducated and ignorant majority-they are a majority!
Personally, I think rape is nowt to do with sex. It's about power, control, insecurity...Most of the time at least.
Thanks for the compliment :)
I don't know, what people want to think is that dancers do the job because they're troubled, unconfident, 'too stupid to get a real job'.. Forced into it by their pimp!...
I have met a lot of troubled girls who dance. Many dancers I know well have insecurities and issues and need to work on their confidence.
Many PEOPLE I know have insecurities, issues and a need to work on their confidence.
I also know dancers who are self assured , happy, well-rounded individuals who know a good job when they find one.

Lol I say this tongue in cheek sometimes. If somebody wants to pay X amount of money to see what I see everyday in the mirror or the shower, then who am I to argue?
People need money, they need tools to make money whether that be literally tools, or labour and time, strength, brains...
I just use what I was born with. :)

Re: morallity and employment
 

I don't really think it is exploitation at all...more a symbiotic relationship, with each party getting what it needs.

Re: morallity and employment
 

I agree there Marg

Re: morallity and employment
 

Spelling and grammar don't matter, um ya want to see the stick I get:D

Re: morallity and employment
 

Flaming part timer, can't stand um:D

Re: morallity and employment
 

i love a good thread wander, and seen as though its MY thread, here we go

on sexploitation of women, if your partner was visiting a regular website\stripclub\lap dancing club or similar, and you found out, would you feel as angry as if they had been having an extra marital/relationship affair, or would you see it as at least they havent had physical contact with someone else, so no harm done, also is it on the same scale as finding out they look at porn, or is it worse because its not anonymous?

i think many would see it as a betrayal, i guess its more of a question for women, but thats just because i am being sexist and assuming that the majority of the activities i stated above are predominantly male "indulgences", but fellas how would you feel if your partner was doing any of the above, interesting to see how male attitudes compares to female attitudes.

i can see the point, that whilst visiting said establishment, they arent having an affair, as this suppress that need, much in the same way as the argument that it is "supplying a service" to prevent potential rapists carrying out their crimes(by the way, i dont doubt this, but is there any evidence, i dont see how it can be measured, and without evidence can it be used as an argument )

Re: morallity and employment
 

Personally...and it may just be my age.......I would look on it in the way that I look on dogs chasing cars...they chase them, but how often do you see one driving a car?

I might have viewed it a bit differently when I was younger...in fact I know I would.

Myself, I would never visit a venue that had The Chippendales on...or any such act...it does absolutely nothing for me....and that hasn't changed over the years......I would not have done it when I was younger either. I cannot see any entertainment value in it at all.

Re: morallity and employment
 

and what about the latest trend, mummy porn? the adventures of mr grey

Re: morallity and employment
 

We have discussed that here

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...ton-61937.html

Re: morallity and employment
 

Morality? It's an interesting concept but a very human one. Does it really exist?
Animals don't have morality-some have loyalty(to their group/herd etc.) but isn't that just because each individual knows it has a better chance of survival as part of a group? Buffaloes will herd together, horns down, to keep off the lions but once one of them is down the rest run off when they could easily overwhelm the lions.
Humans are only animals- a high form but still only animals with a herd instinct.
Isn't morality a concept we have but only for as long as we can afford it?
None of us on here are murderers but come the day that someone breaks in your home and starts to stab or attack your partner and children is there any one of us who wouldn't pick up that kitchen knife and push it in, hard? Are any of us 'moral' enough to just let it happen?
'Ah no' you say.'That's not murder,that would be immoral, it's self defence'. It's still taking a human life.Against all our human morals!
Most of us wouldn't dream of stealing but if your children were starving, really starving, and their only hope was for you to steal,lie, cheat to get food wouldn't you? Some even kill to get it.
Morality and employment? Morality and anything- only while we can afford it and it has always been a luxury some people can't afford. As long as the concept makes us feel more safe as individuals or a small group we'll indulge in it but come the crunch-!

Re: morallity and employment
 

i agree, as i as always said, everyone has a sell out price, a point that we can justify our actions

Re: morallity and employment
 

Nope, that doesn't float my boat either.(I didn't buy this book, but it was loaned to me, with the words 'you'll love this, I didn't....I couldn't finish it) Badly written and very contrived, the only reason this was written was to make money for the author - no literary value at all. I consider myself a bit of a prude really.
I do not want to read about someone else's bedroom acrobatics...in my opinion(for what it is worth) those things should be private and remain private.

Re: morallity and employment
 

I worked for 35 years at Dhss (now Work and Pensions).

I enjoyed giving away taxpayers money, and bent (not broke) the rules sometimes to help people.
Not all my colleagues felt the same. Some really enjoyed refusing payments which I thought was rather sadistic.

I recall my time paying out 'lump sums' for bedding and furniture etc. -most enjoyable - I made an effort every day to pay out more than the day before.

Before you taxpayers grumble about 'paying out to scroungers', I remind you that the payments were legal, scrutinised, and audited, and I was commended for my competance at applying those rules. The payments did put money into the local economy.

There came the day when 'Single Payments' were to be replaced by the Social Fund.
I could see that people were to be deprived of the basic neccessities of a civilised existence.
I was earmarked to administer this new fund and rebelled against the concept by applying for a transfer to The Public Records Office at Nelson Archives.

I was shortlisted but didn't get the job, but it was enough for the manager to understand that I would not get any job satisfaction administering Social Fund, so my career took a totally different turn into building maintenance and refurbishment, where I gained great job satisfaction by improving the working environment for my colleagues.

So I did make an effort to avoid being part of a system (Social Fund) which I thought was morally flawed. I was fortunate that my employer understood my feelings about it and provided me with alternative work.

Re: morallity and employment
 

I am a bit of a grammar nazi on the quiet. It doesn't matter as much on a forum as it does elsewhere though-it's when I see mistakes in newspapers, advertisements, supermarkets...etc that's when I get riled!

For me the key is 'Found Out'. If he had lied about where he had been, or simply didn't tell me and I found out through other channels, there's something wrong-why's he covering his actions?
If a partner of mine went to a strip club on a night out with his friends and told me he was going to, I wouldn't care unless our relationship was already showing cracks.
I cannot envision a guy saying to me 'I'm going to (insertnameoft1ttybar) tonight, alone and it being okay-if he wants to do it alone he is wanting more than a dance-he's wanting a strip club experience where he is getting sole attention from women. I think that's different and again, would signify cracks in a relationship.
Porn, if I had a partner that looked at porn when I wasn't around, I wouldn't mind-porn's just an aid to self-sex!If he would RATHER look at porn than have sex with ME, then, again-something wrong with our relationship.
Do you know that for certain :p:hidewall::eek:

On morality, you may be right. If we appear to have morals it may be because of another underlying emotion...
I couldn't even tell you waht this book was about. I don't know anybody who has read it-BUT I was standing in a supermarket queue not so long ago and the woman in front was complaining to the assistant, about the fact that this supermarket had it for sale. I actually intervened toward the end, and said 'You know a good idea? If you don't like the book? Don't read it!!'

Re: morallity and employment
 

No.

Re: morality and employment
 

Same thing for me Margaret but with strippers, mind you once had to work at Martholme, when a company hired the room for the night and had strippers on :rolleyes:

Re: morality and employment
 

Being a good Catholic I bet you didn't look.
:p