Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

We tried for that at the end of WWII, the Americans wisely chose to write off the debts for loan lease as a tax loss rather than take us on board, they may be loud but they ain't stupid.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Ok ... how about the eleventh Canadian province:D We'd have to have different voting qualifications for Brits tho': only those who can skate or field dress a moose would be allowed to vote.:alright:

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Eric.....have you got to be able to do both?
I can skate, but I have never tried to field dress a moose.....You did say Moose and not mouse didn't you?

Well, there have to be some light moments to this serious subject.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Many thanks for that D.I.G.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Skating will do ... and I did say "moose" ... Teela Brown takes care of the mice. The other too lazy sluts don't do mousework.;)

And if you like skating, you can move freely to Northern Saskatchewan and skate 11 months of the year. A knowledge of and a fair degree of skill with firearms are definite plusses. Bears don't respond to "shoo"; and [deleted] off seems to make them angrier than normal ... and normal is bad enough.:dancedog:

And it's a long way from Calais, other frog places, the eyeties, and the krauts ... not to mention the jocks ... and the rest of the EU. And we don't have Eton, Oxbridge, and The City telling us what to do. Oh, and the bacon is decent; so you can enjoy your bacon butties.:D

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

I think Eric is trying to mislead us into thinking it will be easy, he's not quite written that statement as is shown in the fine print.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Eric it sound like a veritable paradise.
I'll pack my case!

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

My brother served in the R.E.M.E. for twenty two years, my wifes brother served in the Royal Navy for fifteen years and our son served in the 1st Royal Tank Regiment for six years, yet none of them ever mentioned Spams.

Their usual discriptions of the Yanks was either, (all the gear but no idea) or an even better one was, (the U.S. military is 10% women 40% black and 100% thick).

Yours as ever, stay happy, Taddy.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Even in the '70s DinG - I worked on the joint unit at Teufelsberg, what a struggle at times but the Berlin PX was a good deal.
Also worked for one of the largest US Defence companies for almost 10 years - which was very frustrating at times, but a great company to work for in all aspects. Once you got used to and accepted their national psyche life was good.:D

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

part of me thinks these so called defections are part of a plan to somehow make the out option appear to be for morons

grove who has failed in every position he has been entrusted with and couldnt even spell despite been in charge of education and a clown like boris

im not paranoid i just happen to know what politicians are capable of which is pretty much anything other than decency and honesty

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

I'm with you there Accyman.
It won't be long before someone comes out and says that those who want to leave are ill educated and lacking in the brain department.
Honesty and decency shouldn't ever be in a sentence that relates to politics.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Seems like those posting have their positions staked out. But there are a couple of questions that you guys maybe able to help me with. What will be the questions on the ballot? I predict it won't be a straightforward one:rolleyes: What percentage of the vote will constitute a victory? I'm assuming, not necessarily correctly, that the "In" crowd (I feel a song coming on:dancedog:) would be happy with 50% + one, something the "Outs" might not go for. Will the government stack the deck by using tax revenue to fund the "INs"?

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

The question on the ballot paper is very clear and straightforward.
It has been published and I am sure most people will have seen it.
As for the second question a majority of one is still a majority.
My understanding is that the campaign will be funded from the public purse, with the IN protagonists having the larger budget....unfair, but then we know exactly what the current incumbents hope will happen.....and that is that we vote to stay in(anything else means a lot of work for those at the Palace of Westminster).

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Ah ... found THE QUESTION. But I don't see it as being all that neutral or simple. There are probably millions of voters who are somewhere in between "in" or "out". Question is, which way will they swing? It seems as if Cameron's "deal" is more important than I first thought. Seems like what folks may be asked to vote for is that deal. The waverers might be tempted to vote for staying in the EU with changes. So the DEAL, with all its convoluted language and complicated provisions actually becomes THE QUESTION.

And I don't think a majority of one is sufficient. A miniscule majority might just become the issue in the next election, perpetuating division.

Parties which win elections are famous for claiming "We have been given a mandate by the people ... etc.":rolleyes: Whichever way you look at it, 50% + 1 ain't no mandate.

British foreign policy has for centuries been based on a balance of power in Europe. Leaving the EU will leave Britain without influence. I know the world has changed, especially since WWll ... you now have to consider your best buddy, the USA. But the US has a vested interest in Britain's remaining a member of the EU. Expect some serious arm twisting from the Yanks, particularly the Democrats who look set to win the Presidential election ... as long as the Republicans are bent on self-destruction.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Well, the so called deal is actually no deal at all because whatever was agreed by those members at the recent negotiations cannot guarantee that these proposals will not be veto'd once the result of the referendum is known.
Now if the UK electorate votes to stay in we are stuffed.....we got nothing.....we will be left looking like right lemons.
If they vote to come out then it really doesn't matter......because their influence will have less bearing on the daily doings of the UK.

Something like 60% of our laws come out of Brussels.....from unelected bureaucrats.....people who really have no interests in the good of the people in the UK.....people who we cannot use a democratic process to remove.

The EU ties our businesses in red tape. They make business harder to conduct because we, the British play entirely by the rules. Other countries( like France) cherry pick which rules they will follow.....nothing happens to them, there are no penalties imposed on them.

We buy more from EU countries than we sell to.
Germany talked about imposing trading tariffs if we leave.....let them.
The whole of our trade with all of the EU amounts to 44%. We buy more from them....and we could impose trading tariffs too.
The EU needs the UK in there because next to Germany we are the largest nett contributor.
If we left then, Germany would be left to shoulder the burden of the financial mire that is currently the Eurozone.
The EU is the most undemocratic, bloated and corrupt organisation going.

As for leaving the UK without influence.....Eric, that is a joke. We have very little influence in the EU.....we are a voice that goes unheard.
We need to look away from the EU......we should not be shackling ourselves to an organisation that can shift the goalposts once the vote is in.
Would you pay an untold amount of money for a car.....the make ,model and specwhich you would not be told until after you had handed over the money?...because that is what this 'deal' is akin to.
I just hope that the electorate can see that this is a mirage.....an illusion painted by smooth tongued snake oil salesmen.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

They've already been sticking their oar in, Kerry, Obama & a few others which was given short shrift from Liam Fox at a "GO" meeting he said :-

“The current President of the United States, when he tells us that Britain should remain in the EU… when the U.S. has an open border with Mexico, and they have a court that can over rule the Supreme Court in the United States, then maybe they can start giving us some advice”.

And of course the EU have been stirring things up to, when they were told to wind their necks in they said they only wished to "inform" the British public as to the "value" of staying with the EU.

Brussels told to say out of referendum amid fears of a pro EU advertising blitz | World | News | Daily Express

Yeah right!

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

We do not need the US or Brussels to advise us how to vote.....both of those parties have their own vested interests for the status quo to remain.
Those agendas may not be beneficial to the UK.......we know that the EU has used strong arm tactics in the past......Ireland and the Lisbon treaty spring to mind.

These incidents only make me more suspicious of the stuff that is going on in the back rooms, make me more inclined to distrust what those in power are telling us.

If I am honest I do not see the vote going the way I would like it to go.....or if it does, then I can see the EU doing some side stepping in order to coerce the PM not to leave(I'm sure that I read that even if we vote to come out, David Cameron is not obliged to do what the electorate wants).
As I have said, if we leave then the whole house of cards could come tumbling down.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Cameron did a 360 degree public speech with the help from the BBC

this new approach of banning the public and a fancy camera angle may be all that is needed to change peoples minds

but remember if we leave we are jumping in to the darkness as cameron says.....

but if we stay in we sink further in to the abyss he forgot to add

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

The BBC are the most politically biased set of goons.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

They are, but not usually in favour of Tories.
I am already fed up of hearing the thinly veiled threats of what MIGHT happen if we vote for Brexit.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Aye but its Labour this time that are selling the public down the river are they not? according to the media the Torys are split.;)

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Yes, but as you know Cashy in the eyes of the Beeb,the Labour Party are the favoured child......it will give those luvvies at the Beeb no end of joy to see the Tories falling out over this so called deal that Dave has extracted from Brussels.....there is nothing they like more than seeing the Tories in disarray.

I personally could not care less about the parties. What I care about is that we regain some backbone and get the hell out of the EU.....it is sucking the life out of this country.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Just checked the odds: 4/11 on staying, 15/8 on leaving. But this is a race over the sticks, and favorites have been known to fall. The polls seem to reflect those odds. But polls change and lots can happen in four months. One can't ignore the ongoing refugee problem, for example. As an aside, from the colonies: in the last four major elections in Canada (Quebec, BC, Alberta, and Federal), the polls proved dead wrong, leaving me to believe that the campaign with its speeches, debates, and electioneering will be very important. Demographics are important too. Masstricht was about 23 years ago; this means that voters under 35 (not too many interested in politics in their first 12 years) have never known a world without the EU. I know it's a simplification, but those 35 and younger are Europeans. Among those older, there are many ... and I'm one of them ... who don't think of Britain as a European country.

And why am I interested, even to the point of reading up on the history of the EU ... I have time on my hands until the hockey playoffs begin.:D In other words, I'm bored, and would rather pass the time educating myself than watching re-runs of "Finding Bigfoot.";)

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

If we leave the EU will farmers have to start farming their land again instead of getting paid to sit on their arses ?

i bet france are crapping themselves because if we leave they will become the last EU port of call for asylum seekers and refugees

if we leave i think it will be a domino effect and others will follow

how funny it would be if greece and the other dead beat countries that contribute sod all were all that were left lol

greece dosnt get a capital G until its paid its debts :-)

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Ain't that the truth. That's why the yanks are going to get involved. Not that they give a flying [deleted] about Europe ... hell, 90% of yanks couldn't find europe on a map; and 94% of them can't spell it ... but self interest is a great motivator. Even Canada has an interest: The Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement. If the UK leaves, this agreement is just so much asswipe.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

well if trump wins hes telling china to stuff it so theres open opportunity to sell poor quality tat to the USA and if anyone can make cheap knock off tat we can :D

because anything else we ever did of worth was neglected and sold off by crooks or MP's as they are more commonly known ....... ya know like the ones who want to stay in the EU because they have no faith in the UK to run its self

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

What about all them poor euro mps .......

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Agreed Cashy, but when the EU are lining the Beebs pockets Ma, of course they'll support those in favour of staying in.

BBC admits receiving millions in grants from EU and councils - Telegraph

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Eric, I have been giving your comment about a majority'.....and 'mandate' quite a bit of thought.
In our general elections we have a first past the post system.
So this means that if there are only two parties,the one who gets the most votes wins and governs. They have the mandate to govern because the people who voted gave them a majority.
If there are more than two parties in the election, then it is much less likely that the party which gets the majority are the party that the most voters voted for(and therefore have a mandate to govern).
In these situations it is highly likely that the governing party got far fewer than the combined votes of the other parties.
The only way for this to become a level playing field is for us to ditch the first past the post system,in favour of proportional representation.
This was proposed in the past,but declined as it was considered that us badly educated plebs would never get our heads around the concept.

However the referendum question gives only two options(this can be likened to having only two candidates).
It makes the likelihood of an outright majority more likely.
I know that you are a very well educated man(far better educated than I am) and that you don't need me to,outline this for you, but there are others who might gain something from this explanation.

And yes Son, you are right about the relationship between the Beeb and the EU.....which as I said in previous posts limits their ability to be unbiased.

Many politicians will also have their eyes on the prize too....the EU gravy train.....which is why I treat their views with a large lump of scepticism.

The intervention of the EU in the law making process for this country means that our MP's can sit on their rumps and do LESS for more money....the guys in Brussels are doing their work for them......better still, when their constituents complain they can give a Gallic shrug and blame the EU.
Now isn't that the best of both worlds?

It is time to take our coats and hats off the EU peg.
We do NOT need them.
Our farmers can go back to,farming, the fishermen can go back to fishing our waters unhindered by EU red tape and regulations....we can buy mis-shaped fruit and veg(just as tasty, just as nourishing).

We can police our borders in the way they should be policed, we can ditch the ECHR.
We can deport those rapist, burglars and other criminals which have been allowed free let to do their dastardly deeds here, with not a glance to Strasbourg to see what they think.

None of this is going to be easy, but to take the easy option.....the one which sees us mired into this illusion of a reformed EU(as Jim Royle would say 'reformed my ar$e) is not something I care to think about.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

I have decided to exit this thread for a while.
I have pretty much said my piece.....and each time I read or hear some argument about this subject it makes me angry, makes my blood boil and puts up my BP(not good for me at my age).

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

has there been a mention of eligibility to vote

such as must have a British passport ?

why have they called it brexit it sounds like a cereal theres nothing wrong with exit or g.t.f.o

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

the f in my above post is FLIP i dont want to appear to be breaking forum rules

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

I don't know if it's education, or intelligence, or just that I'm more than normally curious. Not so much about being "smart." "Intelligence" is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; "smart" is knowing not to put one into a fruit salad. But I think, for me anyway, it's mainly curiosity; as the man said ....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETN9eNOA6vw

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

there is talk that cameron will not survive if the exit vote wins

he also wouldnt survive been hit by a car at 70mph

the trick is getting him in front of my car should the exit vote loose

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

The UK?s EU referendum 2016 explained - UK Parliament

For your perusal...and so that our MP and his Rishton puppy can't claim to be better informed than us

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

looks like i was sorta right earlier on when i said the deal with the EU cameron is bragging about wouldnt last long if we stay in

turns out none of the agreement cameron came to is legally binding and can be over ruled in a heartbeat even if all the other counties agree it can be overturned by the European court

cameron spouted nothing but meaningless words to try and trick the nation in to thinking things would change when they wont

now i may just be thick accringtonian whos brain cant grasp the complexity of the EU but people a lot smarter than me have said this

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

And then there's this

EU burying power-grab laws until AFTER referendum | UK | News | Daily Express

If people are foolish enough to vote "stay", then after the referendum the UK are going to be put through the wringer by a vindictive, spiteful EU hierarchy out to get their pond of flesh & then some. All to put us uppity little islanders back in our box & teach us & anyone else with ideas of reform that there is no freedoms only those the EU upper echelons allow us.

If that's what you want, then tick the box, but if you've any hope for your future freedoms & those of your kith & kin, it can only realistically be 100% out!

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

According to today's Observer's interpretation of Graham Jones' views , and you all know not to rely too much on the veracity of the Accrington Observer , well I'll quote the rag......" The Hyndburn and Haslingden MP Graham Jones told the Observer that he would be voting to stay in the EU , despite wanting to withdraw . "

That's a bit puzzling to me .

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

I noted today that the UK government have applied to the EU to get some funding for the folk affected by the floods over the Christmas period.
Now my cynical and warped mind wonders if this ploy has an ulterior motive......folk getting funded(even if it is ten miles down the track) might just be softened up into voting with the 'stay' camp.

JCB......yes that is puzzling.
Maybe what he means is that he would like to vote with the 'outers' but has been told by his party what to do.....that is to vote to stay.

Yes, Son.....I firmly believe that whichever way we vote the peevish and spiteful Organisation that is the EU will try its best to find ways to punish us for having the audacity to stand up against it....to try to take back our own independence.
I am off again now to hide from this subject.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

jesus christ id fell better represented if he flipped a coin when making decisions

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Yes DinG, I saw how they were delaying a vote on increasing the unaudited EU budget by 7 billion £ or E per year because they don't want it to have any effect upon our referendum. A number of EU leaders are already saying that nothing will change for UK, but at least one other country is to hold a referendum to determine whether they reject the Merky immigrant quotas.There are so many instances of information being spouted about staying that is inaccurate - and the Stay lot are even forging documents in an attempt to garner support.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

A member of the top brass military was supposed to have signed a letter to say that our safety and security is at risk if we vote to leave the EU.
It turns out that he did NOT sign this document, and furthermore he feels that we would be safer out of the EU.
Of the 100 FTSE companies who signed a letter saying we will be impoverished if we leave the EU, it turns out that a large proportion of these companies have a vested interest in remaining in the EU because they get money from this corrupt organisation.
I have just listened to some woman on Sky news spouting a load of twaddle about the Schengen Zone. She said that as we are not part of it, we will be protected against migrants coming here, but if we leave the EU then the border will shift from Calais to Dover.....that migrant camps would appear in towns along the south coast was what was implied.

The Schengen Zone would not protect us if the EU gives migrants passports.....they would be allowed free let into this country by the very fact that they have an EU passport......so, it follows that more would come here.

When trying to sift the wheat from the chaff of information you have to look beyond the face value of what you are being told.....ask yourself why this person is telling you this, ask if they have a vested interest......and ALL POLITICIANS whatever their shade of political opinion have a vested interest......staying in gives them someone else to blame for anything that goes wrong....With the economy, with security, with housing, with the NHS, with benefit, with every aspect of your life.

Consider your vote carefully,because this is the last chance we will ever have to take charge of our own destiny.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

I suspect that well over 95% of us will be puzzled by such a statement, nothing new about that, after all he has told us we know nowt.

I would like to make my own statement, I would like to see a Labour M.P. voted in at the next elections but not if it's this guy.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

I asked our local MP (CON) if the same level of benefits is available in all member states of the EU, this is his reply.

"When you say "the same level of" benefits, then the answer is no. The terms, conditions and amounts of benefits payable in each EU member state is decided by the Parliament of that EU member state, and the nationality of the recipient, so long as they are an EU citizen, will have no reflection on the terms, conditions and amount of benefits payable. It is for individual states to decide the nature of the "in work" benefit an employee can receive."

Now you don't need a degree in medieval Greek to work out, that because the levels of our benefits are higher than many other member countries, we are a preferred destination and therefore at a disadvantage.

The EU directive on this matter states:-
"This entails the right not to be discriminated against on the grounds of nationality as regards access to employment, remuneration and other conditions of work. The application of the equal treatment rule means that such persons will be entitled to in-work benefits in the same way as nationals of the host Member State"

I think that UK's levels of benefits discriminates against the entire nation.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

He should speak to as many constituents as possible, after all hes supposed to be our representative. imho

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Cashy, the referendum vote is an individual personal vote, not a political one. Therefore, in my opinion Graham Jones is just like the rest of us on this one - a purely personal choice. However, I hope he does not use his position to try and persuade others to follow his decision.
I too am somewhat confused though - he thinks we will be better off out of the EU but will vote to remain???????

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Yes Barrie, that's intelligence in action....is it not ?

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

i wonder how i wanted to stop and the red light but i opted to go through it would go down with a a police officer ?

mind you i think it describes labour voters they really dont want to vote labour but end up doing out of habbit

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Well yes, his vote I thought within the referendum should be private, as in going with his conscience if he actually has one, however that won't prevent him climbing the slippery ladder by fooling a few other voters will it?

As for using position, can we have a referendum on that? I will once again pluck a figure from the air, 95% of us would think he has got beyond his competent position and proves it in the Obbo'.

Whatever you do though don't consider anything I say to be of any use in this debate I KNOW NOTHING, as he will no doubt tell you if meet him, or disagree with him, by the way Graham, you still haven't shown us a link to your original 95% claim that we know nowt and aren't bothered about the E.U. even though I and others have asked for it.

If you have time to spare from your fence sitting could you finally show us your proof?

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

He won't. He's a politician. They all speak bozwallox....

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

if we leave the EU we should have a boarder control half way down the channel tunnel so its easier to send unwanteds back

theres already a space suitable for doing this made when they sent the drills off to the side

just unload the unwanted and put them back on the return train to France without them ever setting foot in to the UK

that will probably sound racist to some but i dont care on single bit because governments consecutive failure upon failure to control the issue has led to many many people been fed up on this topic and no one will believe anything a politician says about the issue because every single one of them that has had the power to do something has only made the issue worse

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Here's an article and map from YouGov of the most eurosceptic/europhile areas in the country:

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/02/28...c-map-britain/

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

After the matter of the auditing of the EU accounts which were not signed off for several years I have a couple or so other concerns on whether or not to stay in the EU.

This website shows that the auditors have been able to sign off the accounts every year since 2007 but there still seems to be some questionable misappropriations of money:- https://fullfact.org/europe/did-audi...ign-eu-budget/

Anyone who has a small business knows how much red tape arrives in the post.

Other black marks against the EU are the interpretations of "free movement" whereby every Tom, Dick and Harry can enter any country with hands outstretched for as many benefits they think are their "human rights". There's nothing more galling than to see a foreigner bring his whole family on a "package holiday" spent in a foreign owned house so that they can register yet another child's birth in order to have larger benefits than that offered in their own country. Frankly I'm sick to death of Eastern European women and other foreigners being housed & given cash with no other visible means of support but making money on the side by fake marriages. The French with African heritage seem to have a penchant for scamming our housing benefits too as can be seen in some documentaries. It's obviously easy to go to various councils, obtain a house, then secretly sublet whilst they actually live in France. Then each month hop over the Channel to collect their rents and benefits. Further, that we have to accept convicted foreign thieves and murderers without a murmer is another bugbear.

The UK isn't the only country to want changes and this has been highlighted with the influx of refugees and igrants, which I think was not only due to Mrs Merkel's invitation but also there was another massive surge from September 2015 onwards when Putin started bombing civilian homes. I don't think he did this solely to assist Hussain, he did it to (1) cause a diversion away from Ukraine, and (2) to disrupt and cause concern to Eastern European countries who hadn't thought that they would have to take in any foreigners never mind tens of thousands as is being requested. For decades, they have had to cope with Soviet beaurocrats on their soil they're not ready to be "multi cultural".
-
EU President, Donald Tusk's letter has addressed my main concerns (bits are copied & pasted below)

commitment to increase efforts to enhance competitiveness. We will regularly assess progress in simplifying legislation and reducing burden on business so that red tape is cut.
recognises that in light of the United Kingdom's special situation under the Treaties, it is not committed to further political integration. It also reinforces respect for subsidiarity, and I propose that the Member States discontinue the consideration of a draft legislative act where a number of national parliaments object to it on the grounds of subsidiarity, unless the concerns raised can be accommodated. The importance of respecting the opt-out regime of Protocols 21 and 22, as well as national security responsibilities is also underlined.
the clarification of the interpretation of current rules, including a draft Commission Declaration on a number of issues relating to better fighting abuse of free movement.
The draft Decision of the Heads notes, in particular, the Commission's intention to propose changes to EU legislation as regards the export of child benefits and the creation of a safeguard mechanism to respond to exceptional situations of inflow of workers from other Member States.
-
If these are met, I'll possiblbly be voting to stay in the EU - unless my offspring's argument can persuade me otherwise :-)

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Lucysgirl, if you believe the fairy stories spun by the likes of Donald Tusk then you are either naive or deluded.
Once the referendum result is known, especially if the electorate votes to stay in the EU, all of these reforms will be kicked so far into the long grass it would take an intrepid explorer to find them.
The EU needs us to stay in.
We contribute a large chunk of money to this corrupt organisation.....and our influence( because we are a small country) is negligible.
The EU compromises our security by allowing the free movement of people from the EU (many of those refugees/asylum seekers/migrants whose origins, backgrounds and allegiances are unknown)have been given EU passports which gives them free movement.....and once they get here they are not going to want to leave.

The negotiations by David Cameron were a joke...He asked for very little and got even less....and what he thinks he has achieved will vanish like spring snow because the other members will not support these measures....They are not guaranteed in any way to be binding.

We really do need to leave. We need to be the authors of our own fate....We do not need to be part of the undemocratic EU, where the bureacrats (who are unelected) make the rules, and because they are unelected we cannot get rid of them.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

My reply to Margaret hasn't appeared - apparently I was timed out and now my letter is lost in the ether.

It's teatime but I'll be back :-)

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Lucysgirl, I will look forward to that...your posts are always interesting and considered.
However I do not share your optimism of the reform of the EU.
It is never going to happen.....and not only is it not going to happen, whichever way the electorate votes, the other member states will try to find some way to humiliate the UK for trying to seek reforms.

This organisation was sold to the British public as a trading organisation.....not as a political federalist state.
We sell less to the EU than we buy......and yet the bureacrats have been talking of slapping tariffs on any goods which we might want to sell within the EU. Does that not remind you of school yard tactics?

The migrant crisis has been mismanaged by members of the EU.
Letting in people who are economic migrants rather that true refugees is entirely wrong.....and for these people to say where they will go proves that they are NOT refugees.
Our future lies in a different direction.
If we vote to leave, then I feel pretty sure we will be sent away to consider our errant ways, and come back with a better answer.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

every single deal cameron makes to keep us in the EU can be turned back after the vote and more than likely will be

there is absolutely nothing preventing any deal been broken once a stay in result is made

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Exactly.....and they (the top knobs ) in this bloated corrupt organisation have openly admitted this.
So anyone who votes to stay in is off their onion.
There is no chance that the EU will reform in a way which serves the member countries.
Those at the top of the EU organisation are there not to make our lives better. They are only interested in making their lives better.
Why should we bother electing MP's if all our rules and regulations are coming out of Brussels.
For Goodness sake, it is a poor show when we have to go 'cap in hand' to ask if we can remove the VAT on women's sanitary products.
That is just one example.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

if anyone for one second thinks that any Euro MP from another country ever acts on behalf of the UK or for the benefit of the UK they are complete idiots.No other country including the UK will ever act favorably for another country at their expense and will try and shove burden on to each other as long as it is away from themselves

sadly the Labour party is riddled with these idiots and are led by an even larger idiot

If we leave the EU i hope we never get a labour government in power again as they will sign us right back up

if we leave the EU we need another party to compete with tories because the most scary thing at the moment this country faces isnt ISIS its another labour government under corbyn

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

International News yesterday (3/3/2016): Due to bankers not receiving large bonuses and investors losing money, prices of houses in Knightbridge, London have gone down by nearly 5% and Chelsea's by 2%

Europe together with others have successfully managed to remove one of the troughs the pigs ate at.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Apologies for being late to respond - I've had computer problems.

I have a cloth ear when opponents on any side can only sneeringly parrot the phrase "fear factor tactics" as I want to hear what facts that people wearing red, yellow, blue, etc. rosettes have experience of. I can then surf and do my own research and come to my own conclusions.
About five years ago Cameron said that he thought the next Treaty would take place in 2016 and I mistakenly thought that if he won the election he would hold the Referendum AFTER the Treaty and been negotiated but before it had been signed off. This forthcoming Treaty would include signatories of the usual diehard extreme leftwing socialists aswell as more moderate and new members who could ally themselves to new ideas for the future of the EU.. It's a shame Boris mentioned the notion of voting NO with the expectation of an immediate renegotiation by frightened EU Nations who want us to stay because of the international clout (and money) that we have. I had the same idea but now that the cat is out of the bag the other EU members know they are on firm ground.

(1) The argument that we buy more from the EU nations than we sell to them. I have two answers to this.
(a) We are not self sufficient: For this reason we have always had to import raw materials such as food (grain, etc) as well as wool, cotton, etc. Additionally, now that we have already dug up all of our reserves of iron and high quality coal to keep our iron and steel mills producing we are

(b) A rich man buys more than a poor man, thus as a rich nation we buy more than poor little Belgium, Greece, Italy, etc.
-

(2) The membership of the EU costs a lot of money that we can use on other things. Membership of any club, whether it's a keep fit club or the EU club they all cost entry money. We have to look at what the market & its alternatives have to offer. We know that we could leave the EU and do a deal similar to other nations but we'd still have to pay to be part members and we wouldn't have a say in any of the Treaties. I don't have figures for costs of all the Associations that the UK belongs to, i.e. The EU, the G12, the UN, the WHO, etc. etc.but I should imagine that whatever alternative(s) we put in place of the full EU membership it will still cost eye watering amounts of money and I doubt we would save much in the long run. The EU would probably be a bit like British Telecom when its customers left them in droves. Where once they charged for the landline plus whatever calls were made, they now send a minimum invoice for the landline plus an amount for imaginary "family" calls that never took place..

(3) We don't need the EU and can go it alone and make our own trade deals with other nations. Of course we can, we did it before and we could do it again. We've always had innovative Brits whose products left the shelf as soon as they arrived. However, there's a difference between the costings of what we used to sell and what we sell now. Since WWII the costings of our products and services have risen to include; H&S measures, EEC Standard testing costings, paid tea breaks, maternity pay, etc. I'm asking myself which Nationalities are paid enough to buy what we have to offer? Would the majority of people in countries that do not have these overheads affford to, or be prepared to, pay extra for our products? I can't imagine the majority of the billions of workers around the world that don't get benefits such as the NHS, paid tea breaks, maternity & child benefits being able to afford our high prices. Bryan and I used to export a modest amount of our products around the world (but not inside the EU) - the form filling was horrendous and I know from my son's experience that goods he's bought over the years from Scandinavia, Australia and USA he's had extra banking & exchange rate costs plus he's had to travel to Preston to pay import tax. It will take a few years to negotiate our own trade deals to give our export/importers reasonable import taxes, especially as we already know that the USA protects its own, they even refused entry to tons of emergency goods sent them a few years back.
I'm all ears.
Rena

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Rena, it was worth waiting for...and I hope your computer problems stay sorted.

No, we are not self sufficient, but that does not mean we have to go 'cap in hand' to the EU...and yes of course the rich man is always going to buy more than a poor man...but he is always always going to be on the lookout for a competitive price......and I beleive that the EU can prevent us from providing a competitive price by increasing the amount of red tape that businesses have to wade through.
The EU has also been seen to be biased in favour of nations other than the UK when we have been looking to participate in trade deals........Siemens got subsidies that made their rolling stock more competitive than Bombardier which produces similar products in this country(that is only one example...I am sure there are many more).

Now this club we are in.....if it seeks to use such underhand tactics, then we have to ask why we are in it...and whether the benefits are really worth the costs (personally I don't think they are).
I think that there is a general continental dislike of the UK.......I think that they see us as upstarts... the French cherry pick which rules they will follow and which they won't and seem to get away with it...whereas the Brits follow the EU rules to the letter.

As for still having to contribute as being a part member and having no say in what happens...well as far as I can see we have made absolutely NO impact on any of the votes we have made in the past(none of them went in our favour....this is because we are a small country so influence is negligible)...so there will be no change there at all.

Yes, you are right...we can go it alone. No-one says that this is going to be easy, but at least we will not be dictated to by the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels...as to what we can do.....who we can employ, on what terms we can employ.
Maybe we could even have our own bill of rights which will allow us to deport those who come here and commit crimes......other countries within the EU seem to manage to do this but for some reason we can't.

I never wanted to be in the EU.....and this our last chance to determine our own destiny.
The so called 'deal' that our esteemed PM had managed to get out of the snakes in the EU is worth less than a sheet of used Bronco toilet paper.......and believe me whether we vote to stay in or come out....you can guarantee those over on the continent will poo on us from a great height for having the audacity to even think of confronting the sclerotic, bloated, corrupt organisation.

Now, I need to go and have a lie down and let my blood pressure come back down to normal levels...right now it has a yellow duster in its hands and is knocking cobwebs off the ceiling.

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I live in Germany, but I want to see UK leave the EU. I travel back once a year for a couple of weeks to see family & friends, the change in the make up of what was once my "Home" Country disillusions me anew every time & it's getting worse year on year.

I think I can appreciate the change more readily as an occasional visitor than those who live amongst the creeping change day to day. Living amongst it the change doesn't appear so profound, but believe me, my England ceased to exist many years ago due to the insidious EU.

To my mind, out is the only way.

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It is also time we took back the control of our borders....to be able to determine who we will allow into our country and who we won't.

Our towns have really changed beyond recognition....and some of them I do not visit anymore because I feel like I am in a foreign land.

I will be voting OUT.......and I do not think there is any kind of argument/discussion which will alter how I feel.
I do not need politicians giving me a load of bullshine.....their prognostications are bogus, because they truly do not know how things will pan out whatever happens after the 23rd of June.
They want us to stay in as this means much less work for them to do.......and less responsibility too.

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Apologies for overlooking and not answering this point.

I put the blame squarely on the shoulders of the British Press for selling it as "The Common Market", when it wasn't quite the truth.

I don't know about anyone else but from a memoir I read in the 1960s I knew after WWII that the French had peddled the idea of European countries with Iron and Steel industries coming together to form a trading Organisation and I knew we had turned it down. I equated the "Common Market" viz the E.E.C. as just an extension of the Iron and Steel trading bloc whereby countries not having that industry could also trade without borders, e.g. without importation taxes. The phrase "Common Market" does not sound as menacing as the "European Economic Community" which I'm sure would have raised more than a few eyebrows but would have had people questioning the aims and ultimate goal of such a community, especially as it was known at the time that it was fashionable to be a far left Trotskyite in some parts of Europe.

You and Dave in Germany say you don't recognise this country these days - I can say that when Bryan's overseas posting was finished and we came back to England 1970 we couldn't believe the changes made in just a few years away from home. It seemed as if the then government had opened a flood gate & got rid of and replaced all the smiling Gracie Fields/Charlie Chester/George Formby type shop keepers and bus conductors - especially galling was newly installed foreign shop keepers charging an illegal price for a Milk Marketing Board bottle of milk and the foreign conductors not knowing what a bus terminus was.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

My memory goes back a long way too.
I recall the European Economic Community being promoted as a trading organisation, rather than the huge political beast it has become.
Yes, the media did dub the EEC as the 'common market'.....I think this was done because using the full title was a mouthful, but also, as you say, it seemed less of a threat.


This so called trading partnership has never had equality at its heart.
Take for instance the Common Agricultural Policy. Farmers were paid not to cultivate their fields. Not to produce foodstuffs.
Why was this do you think? Well, it does not take an Einstein to work out that if we did not produce our own food then we would have to buy it....and we would have to buy it from one of the countries in the 'common market'.
Do you remember the butter mountains....the wine lakes, the surplus of good produced by the 'common market'?
These found their way into our shops and made home produced stuff far less competitive....so producers gave up producing food for the home market....and as the 'common market' had made our food less competitive in our own country, it was obvious that we would not be exporting our food to them......so competition against their goods was wiped out.....and that is a 'market'?

A couple of years ago there was a huge outcry against the practice of fish being caught and not being saleable due to some barmy EU regulations.

Many varieties of apples have died out because they did not meet the EU criteria.....this was not because they were not good to eat, but because some bureaucrat had deemed them to be illegal to sell( I long for a lovely Russet Apple...But never ever see them nowadays).

I consider myself reasonably politically aware. (Even though I do not have any political affiliation)I do not just swallow what the media tell me, I like to seek out information so that I can make informed decisions.

I have not got a clue as to who my MEP is.
I do not ever remember voting for an MEP.
I do not recall ever having been canvassed for my support for any MEP. I do not ever recall what policies my MEP promoted....what he/she offered to gain for our area.
I am pretty sure I am not alone in this.

If you went round Accrington today and asked 100 resident who their MEP is I would be surprised if 2% could tell you.(many would not understand the question unless you ask them in their mother tongue - which is not English, which they haven't bothered to learn)
As far as I am concerned Turkey is not in Europe....and yet this country is being admitted to the European Union. How long will it be before They are asking China to join?

The EU is anti democracy. I have never felt more strongly about an issue than I do about leaving the EU.....however difficult this may be, it is better than the prospect of remaining in this self serving organisation.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

All that having been said, I consider that there are only two hopes of getting out of the EU.
Bob Hope and No Hope.....seeing as Bob Hope is long dead it can only be one thing.

If we vote the wrong way we will be sent back to do it over until we get it right(right in the views of the EU, I mean)....did I say the EU was undemocratic? Oh Yes..... I did. This just proves it.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

That might have been the case when there were only a handful of members who mainly kow towed to the whims and wishes of Germany and France. When Major managed to get them to agree to opening up the membership we've had a better record of thwarting the big guns.
Other western European countries also have their benefit systems hijacked. From what I hear from my German cyberpal and also from foreign newsreels I think we have a very good chance of:
(1) closing the door to people who haven't got a job to come to.
(2) putting an end to sending large benefits abroad to support families in their own countries.

(3) I'm pretty sure that now mass migration is occurring and other member countries are now experiencing the same problems we have, they'll want some mechanism to curb them becoming multi cultural countries too. For this reason I think that they'll reinstate the old veto system which they removed because they were sick of us using it - but so that they can save face it will have a different name of course..

(4) For the same reason as (3), I think they'll introduce (a) time restrictions on failed job seeking migrants and (b) a four year rule, then you go home, for asylum seekers. Both categories, who up to now, have been able to use free legal means to prolong their stay.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

I like your optimism Rena, but do not share it.
Some of the things you have said are what David Cameron put forward. We are led to believe it was a struggle to get concessions such as stopping migrants from sending benefits home to children in their home country(benefitting their economy, not ours)and a time restriction on migrants who fail to find employment.

The concessions which our PM says he has an agreement on may disappear like summer snow when and if the referendum results are for us to stay in.
This is because those who gave assurances in those negotiations will not be the ones who have the ultimate say so.......and we have been told that at the outset.....so these promises don't really exist in any real sense.
We will also be made to pay(and not necessarily in financial terms) for having the gall to suggest that the EU needs to reform.
If this suggestion had come from some other country(and I know that since we have made it clear that we do not like the way the EU is going, others have also said that they would like reforms) then I think it would have been looked upon more favourably...but we are the 'upstarts' and need teaching a lesson.

No, let us get the hell out of there!

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I'm enjoying this debate Margaret, but I think I might have to make more than one posting to cover the points you made.


You said:- "A couple of years ago there was a huge outcry against the practice of fish being caught and not being saleable due to some barmy EU regulations."


For the last 30-40 years I have had steam coming out of my ears and I bounce off the ceiling whenever the subject of EU Agriculture and Fisheries Policy comes up. I've written to every government and given poor Greg Pope an ear bashing - all agree with me but the wheels of the Commission grind slow. I was most definitely put off Farage and his party when he couldn't be bothered to attend the meetings to set up a revised policy.
I totally blame the Commission's dunderhead short sighted Fisheries Policy these last several decades for the decline in fish stocks. The scheduling of these meetings has to change and also the length of time taken to change regulations has to be shortened and red tape got rid of..

The members sitting in the Commission seem to have all read some rosey book that historically describes a collection of fishermen's boats in a harbour/port as a "herring fleet" or "deep sea cod fleet". From these phrases they set out the regulations whereby a boat owner is allowed to catch a quota of a specific species. They also didn't take into account that fish don't live in one space, they travel about thus in a week when ther's no herring the fishermen return empty handed, yet in another week there's an abundance of them but the regulations were so rigid that the catch had to be restrained and even a small excess of herring had to be thrown back into the sea..
Just like on terraferma, there's a pecking order where large fish of prey, such as cod, eat smaller fish and smaller fish eat even smaller fish, etc., etc.
e.g. mackerel eat sardines..... pollack, hake, tuna and dogfish all eat herring

This means that even though a fishing boat might have gone fishing for a shoal of herring he would most likely catch the fish that was preying on the herring. Once upon a time all fish could be brought back to the fish market and sold, but under the Commission's regulations that ended. No account was taken that fish mingle in the sea and tons of unlicenced (and unfortunately dead or dying) fish were having to be thrown back into the sea.

The silliest scenario I ever saw was in a "fly on the wall" documentary where several small fishing boats had seen on their radar an absolutely massive shoal of herring. When the nets were hauled out of the water it was discovered that they were full of fish officially called "sprats" (very small type of herring). Of coure they had to be thrown back into the sea for the seagulls to gorge themselves on. Yet within view was a very large trawler happily hauling in net after net of the sprats because they had an appropriate licence

There's one sad postscript to the town I was born in. The fishing port is devoid of ships and buildings, as the latter have been demolished.but not replaced. The fishermen families want a memorial to the men who sailed and died at sea. The bright young things and sophisticated incomers on the council have allocated what they think is a suitable space for this, which has upset the locals because that just happens to be where for hundreds of years the fish guts and entrails were cast.

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I'm nodding my head at this point Margaret:

You said:-
"Many varieties of apples have died out because they did not meet the EU criteria.....this was not because they were not good to eat, but because some bureaucrat had deemed them to be illegal to sell( I long for a lovely Russet Apple...But never ever see them nowadays)".

A whole pub full of us were incredulous that they wouldn't accept our baking apple. I'm sure we all like the continental apple strudel with its addition of nutmeg to taste but you still can't beat the tasty British (baking) Apple pie, which used to be far less pricey than the other varieties..

Cox's orange pippins has always been my favourite but I mostly blame the supermarkets for the decline and disappearance of many of our once popular apple varieties. Their excuse being that their customers would only accept perfectly formed fruit such as the newly invented but tasteless French "golden delicious". I notice this last year or so that the supermarket has started putting a few baking apples on their shelves but the price is exhorbitant, probably due to its rarity these days.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

I used to get my Russets from various markets.....they can keep their Pink Lady, their Gala, their Braeburn and the Mac Reds(though you don't see those very often these days)....I like Cox's pippins too....and I still see these from time to time and I buy them to go with lettuce on a salad.
My points were to illustrate the inane rulings which have come out of this trading agreement.
I think the Fishing policy did for Fleetwood, and Grimsby too...but back in 2013 I think the fishing quotas were relaxed, but by then the damage to our fishing fleets was complete....and again.....no more competition from those pesky Brits.

The topic of the EU does nothing for my health as I get very irate at the things that have happened in the past and we have just blithely accepted them as a done deal.

I am a bit like that other famous lady who was called Margaret, but only in the respect of 'this lady is not for turning'.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Not sure if you're aware or not but the Dutch will be holding a "vote" tomorrow on signing up to an EU agreement for further integration of the Ukraine into the EU fold. Apparently the other 27 member states have agreed to this (UK included, did anyone ask you your opinion? I thought not!).

It wasn't that long back that tensions were rising in the region between Russia & the EU/Ukraine due to EU "Expansionism" & Russia feeling somewhat miffed about encroachment into their sphere of sovereignty. Although not headline news it's still going on, and the "Remainians" are saying being part of the EU is good for our security!! Really???

Makes as much sense as prodding a hornets nest with a stick!

http://www.wsj.com/articles/dutch-vo...ope-1459762411

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Let us hope that the Dutch do send ripples throughout the EU. It is way past the time when action needed to be taken...the status qou doesn't cut it anymore.
It is time many of these nations woke up and smelled the coffee.
If things continue in their current vein, I can see the racial tensions being a cause of great conflict throughout the EU....I won't say war, but I think it will come pretty close to it.

It does not auger well for security does it?

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

I have just read some more about this Dutch referendum and although it is asking the Dutch people to vote, the Dutch government do not have to follow through on the results...so a 'No' vote would not mean that the Ukraine would not be further integrated into the EU.If the government agree to further integration of Ukraine, then that is what will happen regardless of the views of the people........so is this to be considered a pointless exercise? I don't know the answer to that one!

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Lucygirl, am I just reading crap or is there something that I don't understand about your ramblings?
I'm not ducking for apples nor am I fishing for euro compliments, just put what you mean in simple sentences that I can understand, please.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

You are not reading crap, you are reading obvuscation...

It's a time honoured Tory tradition to appear more knowledgable by posting alleged facts, figures and dodgy personal anecdotes without ever providing proof of content.

And if all else fails..chuck in a slice of racism

Notwithstanding the fact that the government of the day invited these people to come because we had too many jobs and too few people..something her idealistic mate sorted less than 20 years later by destroying jobs in manufacturing, car making, ship building, coal mining and steelmaking, to name but a few, and destroying inherent lifestyles far more than adding a few pence to the price of a bottle of milk or being served by a 1940's filmstar lookalike..

Like I said....obvuscation...

Stay in...Bad

Get out....Good

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Hi to you late comers - I've been wondering when men would re-join the debate.

One thing is obvious to me and that is the difference between male and female brains - we like to chew over absolutely everything, but it seems all the males want to do is sling mud at me.

I was hoping people in various trades would join in, so we could hear views from their perspective and maybe even
(whisper) an estate agent :hehetable:hehetable

You obviously haven't noticed that I'm agreeing with Margaret on everything but I still want to expand the debate.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

If you are interested in the disappearance of certain fruits and veggies etc., may I suggest Mooney's Seeds of the Earth: A Private or Public Resource.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Hi again Margaret - this post is about the absurd butter mountain that you mentioned and where the Policy procedures were so lax that we had goodness knows how many rogues laughing all the way to the bank. They found it easy to buy cheap butter which they obtained from the despatch outwards gate, they then drove their lorries to Ireland and then back into mainland Europe where they got paid the going retail price from the goods inward office.

To be fair, we did have a similar agricultural policy that began in WWII and I know it was still in place when I married in '64 but I don't know if it changed prior to us joining the EU. I'm from the flat lands of the eastern coast which was used for crops (grain and veggies) with a field here and there where cattle and sheep grazed. From conversations with farmers in the local watering holes:: the government agent would come round, they'd discuss what crops would be wanted, they'd be sown - I know after the war in late 1950s, a farmer walked into the bar and said the inspector had been and told him not to pick his bumper crop of potatoes but to turn the land over, at the time I was shocked but that's how our governments controlled the prices in the shops - the farmer still got paid by the government for not producing his potatoes, in other words even if the crops failed that year due to bad weather the farmers could still expect a handout from the government - obviously what could happen if the nation were at war again meant buying from abroad and having our merchant shipping sunk. In the late 1950s I was shown around one of the port warehouses which could hold 4,000 cattle at a time for export, it seemed to me at the time that we were doing quite well if that's how we brought in the money.

All that changed when we joined the Market and those subsidies stopped.

I didn't like the Common Market ag.policy at all although knowing the hardship of the last war, I understood the reasoning behind having a few weeks supply in the form of the mountains of food and drink. What I didn't agree with was the policy of getting rid of the small farmers. Not that France toed the line, of course.

--

Turning to more modern times and the new Farming Subsidies - the old ways of shopping have gone and we mainly use the supermarkets, who resort to bullying tactics to get the deals they want and quite often don't bother to settle their bills and that's not just with the British suppliers but also their foreign suppliers. We probably eat more foreign grown rice & veggies than spuds and sprouts these days so we currently don't need as much farmland, unless we plan for a burgeoning population when it will come back into use again. It's a debatable subject of whethr or not to give handouts and if so how much because we know farmers take in holiday makers, they also have an income from other ideas they've put into practice.

You said: Take for instance the Common Agricultural Policy. Farmers were paid not to cultivate their fields. Not to produce foodstuffs.
If you remember we'd had thousands of cattle shot, the sheep had caught "blue tongue", up in Northumbria pigs were dying of disease that was brought into the country by a government certified pig swill farm and there were reports of farmers so deep in debt that they were committing suicide. They needed help and I think I'm right in saying that Tony Blair managed to get money to pay the farmers to be custodians of the land and money was given to plant trees and rebuild non maintained walls/hedges plus they were to leave land to nature in order that bees, etc. would survive and increase. Smaller farms haven't survived - they're now in land banks owned by supermarkets, etc.and I hope they're not getting any of the money!!!

"This so called trading partnership has never had equality at its heart. - you can say that again. We've had to fight for what little we get.


P.S. This isn't about the Common Market but I was curious about the number of suicides and found this article, which shows it's happening elsewhere.

"In the U.S. the rate of farmer suicides is just under two times that of the general population. In the U.K. one farmer a week commits suicide. In China, farmers are killing themselves daily to protest the government taking over their prime agricultural lands for urbanization. In France, a farmer dies by suicide every two days. Australia reports one farmer suicides every four days. India yearly reports more than 17,627 farmer suicides. — Newsweek 2014"

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Thanks Eric - Have now surfed and seen the gist of the book (as under). Bryan and my ears pricked up when we heard some American company had produced a crop that they'd incorporated a fish gene in. I wrote to our local MP straight away - I think I heard recently that the EU is in negotiations to allow more American trade - this frightens me.

""Terminator Technology AND Monsanto AND Roundup" and you'll start to get the picture. Mooney broke the story, as far as I can determine, and he broke it in this book. Biotechnology, genetic engineering, and the domination of the world by the corporate pharmaceutical and petrochemical companies proceeds apace.
This is one of the most important situations on the planet and one that those not virtually, terminally ignorant and apathetic should at least monitor if not becoming actively involved.
This book should be reprinted. "

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Guinness, obfuscation is not just the domain of the Tory party.....it is something used by all political parties to bamboozle the electorate into casting a vote for them.

They tell us what they would like us to believe(whether there is any truth in it or not), they tell us what they think we want to hear,(they do not credit us with having anything inside our craniums to keep our ears apart) they tell us what they think is good for us......what they think our poor little brains can process(our own MP is a prime example of this)......they rarely tell us the truth.

They use obfuscation freely, but do not call it that. They term it as 'spin'......just a euphemism for obfuscation.

It is going on right now with all the fear stoking about leaving the EU.

What we need to remember is that nearly all the politicians in the top jobs have no recollection of Britain outside the EU......because most of them were not born......so they cannot know how things will fare if we leave.
They cannot conceive of such an idea, because they have absolutely no experience of it.

I do like your very succinct thoughts on the EU though.......
In=bad.
Out=good.
Just keep on telling yourself that.(though I still think it will all be futile - this time next year we will still be part of this organisation and in crap up to our eyebrows.......and that is just so that we don't open our mouths to complain).

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

There are many blokes who can readily asses the facts, formulate an opinion & present a cognizant argument for or against dependent on their view point. Me, I am out & out "Out!" thank you very much, as previously mentioned I live in Germany & have done (from 1984 -93 with the Military & then officially as a legal civilian resident) since November 1993 up to the present time. As an "English European" I've happily wandered throughout northern Europe, seeing how others live, talking to various nationalities & garnering an insight into various mindsets of the differing nations. Some are rabid europhiles, others bemoan the loss of their previous way of life & all this due to the EU's one size fits all mentality. It doesn't work & can't work & will never work as long as there is such disparity between member states.

For the EU to work, all laws, taxes, language & standards need to be the same throughout the present disparate nation states, It's never going to happen. Wages in eastern europe aren't going to rise to the levels of the west & the west certainly won't accept wage cuts to the levels of the east & do you think the southern states will give up their lackadaisical work attitude for the Nordic/Scandic model of long hours & high taxes? No, the dream of an all encompassing socialist europe, governed by the benign leftist socialist marxists ain't going to happen, but the useful idiots will insist on persevering with their failed experiment, well why not, it isn't costing them anything & they'll be just fine & dandy regardless how much degradation the rest of us have to suffer in the massaging of their egos.

Just give me out any day of the week! It maysn't be the best option, but it'd be our choice, the choice to place an elected member & his/her party, that we choose to represent us, the best of a bad bunch most likely , but at least we can kick the muppets out if they don't buck up & work for us, something we'd not be able to do when being governed from a non-elected EU mandarin select allocated via cronyism.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Son you have voiced most eloquently what I have wanted to say.....in respect of the disparity of the member countries......and also in the failed experiment bit.

As you say it was brainless to expect the likes of Southern Europe to be on a par with the northern rich industrialised members. They did not have a level playing field from the outset. It was like harnessing a mule to a racehorse and expecting a good outcome.

The EU knew that Greece had financial problems for a long time. Yet they railroaded the Greeks into policies and goverment that they did not want....They even installed a government which was aligned to the EU principles when the Greeks complained.....an unelected government......this is the way the EU deals with those who dissent.
Not exactly democracy is it.

What should have happened was that Greece should have been allowed to return to the Drachma, it could then have devalued this(not great).....this would have enhanced the Greek tourist industry and allowed Greece to determine its own destiny.
This would have been painful, but at least the Greeks would know that hard work would eventually pay off and bring them back to solvency(ok, it would take a long time).

Imagine how the UK is going to treated after its effrontery to ask for (paltry) reforms.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

I heard last night that the Government has spent £9Million on a shiny propaganda leaflet extolling the virtues of staying in the EU. The fact which surprised me most was that it cost nearly £500,000 just to create it. I would like to know how we apply for such Government contracts.

Personally, I am in favour of leaving the EU as it has proved to be not fit for purpose. If it was fit for purpose, amongst many other things, the decision makers would be refusing to import the cheap, low grade steel from China which affects all the steel industries in Europe and not just ours. I thought the whole idea of the common market was to control such things. Perhaps they are patting themselves on the back for negotiating such a low price from the subsidised Chinese industry.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Yes, the cost of this shiny new sh...erm, I mean leaflet is being paid for out of our taxes.(I resent MY money being used for something I do not willingly support) this money should be coming out of EU funds....we pay enough in for them to pay to keep us in, for that is what they want.
If we leave, there may be others who follow.
I might just put mine back in the post to 10 Downing St.
With a note on it telling our PM just where he can shove it....and it won't be up his jumper!

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

If you also object to the government spending YOUR MONEY on this leaflet...please sign this petition.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/116762

The petition needs 100,000 signatories to be considered for debate in Parliament.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

money is spent now but i suppose his family could pay the money back out of one of their off shore accounts

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Tried to sign it all I get is:-

You have not signed until you click the link in the email

Looked for a link, looked for an email couldn't find either will try again later.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

It took my e mail link a good few minutes to arrive.....so I am sure it will turn up.
If you know of anyone else who is incensed by this use of our money, please ask them to sign it too.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Hyndburn has provided this petition with 112 signatures so far.
We need more.
Please ask your friends to sign if they do not agree to their money being used(or misused)in this way.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

I just signed up & the reply was pretty much there within minutes (at time of signing 86,6xx or so, by end of confirmation 87,4xx) seems he's gotten right up peoples noses (again) with this one.

Added to that, the "Oranjes" shoved one up the EU too, 61% +/- against on the Ukraine chicanery.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Just took another look a confirmation email arrived an hour later, maybe they were busy, or maybe they add a delay hoping we won't remember to look again, after all, 95% of us wouldn't, as it is I can finally say, it's signed.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Just out of curiosity, must check my signature, for some reason says I've sent from an sm something or other, my signature is supposed to be blank. Modern technology, grr, I didn't know I had one!

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

See! It did it again, when did I get this phone?

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Ain't that the truth. Any attempt at a true EU has failure built into it. And every time a new state joins the chances of failure increase. But as failure becomes more and more inevitable, there are those who say "Try harder. If we do this or that it will work." Horse feathers. Failure is inevitable at some point, whatever the UK decides to do. And as Napoleon said: "Never reinforce failure."

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Now all this got me a'thinkin'. The EU ain't all that massive by Canadian standards; but there's a shiite load of folks living there. There are lots of ethnic groups, cultures, languages, beliefs, and histories. Come to think of it there's only one history; but each country and region had different experiences of it. Over here we have a big country. We have National Parks bigger than countries. The Federal constituency of Nunuvut is about five times bigger than the UK. And "no" this is not a "mine is bigger than yours" thing. Bottom line is, there are only about 35 million of us here. Sure we have a bunch of different cultures hanging around; but nowhere near as many as you find in Europe. And we have only a couple of languages to deal with, plus a few First Nations languages. Lots of things unite us: hockey and a hate of Toronto come to mind. And you would think that with so few of us, we could all get along. Not so. Regional differences are obvious to anyone who cares to look. In the last Quebec Referendum ... call it Quebexit;) ... 49.42% voted to leave Canada, and 50.59% to stay. Now that was a close run thing. If 35 million of us have difficulty getting along, what chance does a EU have? ... about as much chance as a snowball in hell.

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

I'd suggest this as another reason to vote out :-

Prisons See 240% Rise In EU Convicts Paid For By British Taxpayers

The most telling part about the article is the piece which states that Britains nicks are full to overflowing while those of our "European friends" have a markedly decreased population, funny old thing that? :(

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

And todays arguments for getting out!

EU wants control of YOUR pension: Brussels' secret plan REVEALED | Politics | News | Daily Express

Dutch referendum: EU to press ahead with visa-free travel for Ukrainians | Politics | News | Daily Express

The EU is beyond redemption, there is no way it can be changed or bettered for those stuck within its grip. OUT NOW, is the only logical & sensible solution, surely even those who are hard of thinking should've realised this by now?

Re: Referendum is a load of crap.!!
 

Anyone looking at my face can see how disgruntled I am with the Government's Leaflet that dropped through the letterbox today.

Not one mention of Donald Tusk's amendment to "Free Movement" which has resulted in practically every European Thief, Pimp, Conman/conwoman and Murderer freely stepping onto British soil and then vanishing or playing hide and see with our police.

As the government promised an explanation of what the forthcoming Treaty could mean to us I expected an in depth document to arrive on my doorstep. What a disappointment!! I'm an adult, I want details not photographs. What Infant School Brain thought it would be a bright idea to spend £8million pounds on seven "pretty glossy pictures" with an additional cost of £1.5million to have them delivered? Tusk's memo specifically promised more control of our Borders, yet some simpleton brain thought it would be a good idea to hire the author of the "Janet and John" primary school books to outline generalities. There's no words to spell out whether or not we will be allowed to stop the miscreants before they get on, or even alight from the plane, train, ferry or their hired coaches. As we already fine lorry drivers £10K for each illegal, we should also expect coach and airplane companies to take more responsibility and to check whether their passengers carry original, unadulterated legal documentation. It's quite galling that whilst all countries have a problem with fleeing miscreants, it seems we are the only country that exports fugitives who have a ready supply of money stached away and can support themselves "legally" in their new host country.