Asian Disaster
 

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It's almost too enormous to contemplate isn't it Sara? I think sometimes bringing it into perspective by seeing a few individuals and how their lives have been devastated by loss of friends/family/homes/possessions sometimes helps.

Similarly with the 9/11 tragedy. So hard to know how to react or what to say.

I have seen messages on other boards where the reaction has been "It isn't us so why should we care" and I find it very difficult to understand such a reaction.

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Quite right Gobsmacked, it is to enormous to comtemplate, and the people that say 'It isn't us so why should we care' all i can say is they must be heartless bast**ds.

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It is devasting what as happened i have been watching a lot on sky news. It makes feel very lucky that i live in this country even though i do slag it off a lot of the time.You have to feel very sorry for the people in asia, makes you think how gratefull we should be with the riches we have.

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It is hard to know what to say......all the platitudes in the world don't alter a single thing. Nature is a wild beast. I suppose all we can do is be very thankful that it didn't happen to us, and if we are in a position to do so, donate to one of the charities who are trying to help those unfortunate people to pick up the threads. And if you have any religion, pray for those who lost their lives......and for their families to be given the strength to cope.

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Although I agree with your sentiments theirs not a lot anyone can say. This is a tragedy that could not be foreseen and tonight with the total racing towards One Hundred thousand souls there is little we can do other than contribute to the needs of the aid agencies and prey for those left clinging to what’s left of life out there. I would encourage every one to make donations directly to the main agencies like the British Red Cross and Save the Children or through the Foreign Office. Those that have little money or nothing financially to give I am sure that your thoughts and prayers will be just as important. Others can always help further when the Asian Community makes local requests for food parcels or clothing. Last but not least this is a time for putting race and religion aside. For those who may have lost people or know some of those who have lost someone you have my utmost sympathies….

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I've just read the front pages of today's newspaper and it makes me feel so helpless.

As Doug says we can all do something however little by donating to the aid agencies. I cannot imagine what it must be like out there.

One thing which really touched me was the bit which says that despite their own terrible losses the people were doing all they could to help the holiday makers too. In times of need barriers come down and people just help other people. This is how it should be.

I wish I could do more. I see the pictures of those little children lost and alone, scavenging for food and drinking stagnant water and I feel so useless here. I want to be able to put my arms round them and just love and help them. If a little money that I can spare can help at least that's something. if we all give a little it mounts up. I don't think anything this bad has ever happened before in my lifetime.:(

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This is going to sound really horrible and cynical, but here goes....
How about Bagladesh, Rwanda, Cambodia, North Korea, Sudan, Ethiopia, to name but a few.

Certainly the disaster is large, and is a smack in the face for the civilised west, but the world has endured larger disasters, coped and carried on. What is perhaps more shocking about this one is that it is a natural disaster. And what perhaps is more shocking still, is that there are worse disasters to come as a result of our greed and complacent misuse of natural resources.

What happens when Sea levels begin to rise as a result of Global Warming? Where will the population of Bangladesh go when the sea covers it completely? We worry about and resent the levels of immigration we have to endure at the moment, but how will we cope with many hundreds of millions of refugees?

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All of the above are tragic A-b and I'm not going to enter into an argument about what is or isn't worse than any other.

The sea won't only cover Bangladesh it will make a bit of a mess of East Anglia and The Wash too, not to forget Holland. Will the sea defences be able to hold it back? I have no idea.

I don't personally resent immigrants, I only resent immigrants who expect me to live their lifestyle rather than trying to adapt to ours, even then "resent" may not be the right word.

I'm not sure if this is the biggest disaster ever, the newspapers say we haven't even got the tip of the iceberg yet because there will be many more deaths from disease etc due to children drinking from rivers where corpses are floating. I cannot beging to imagine that. I complain about the taste of water from my tap.

Sometimes I think I am just far too self-centred.

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I quite agree Willow. The threat of disease is probably the most frightening thing about this. Avian flu is a disease waiting for a suitable vector. Epidemiologists speak of 'when' not 'if' it spreads. It looks as though this might just be the opportunity it has been looking for. If that becomes a pandemic I shudder to think of the millions who will die before a vaccine becomes available. What is it that the ancient chinese used to say... May you be cursed to live in interesting times. it looks as though 2005 is shaping up to be an interesting year.

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The difference here is scale. To add a little perspective, if an earth quake of this scale was to occur off the south coast of Iceland this would be happening to us.

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And, presumably, the east coasts of Canada and the United States. By the time the tidal wave arrived there the devastation would be of truly biblical proportions

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and how do we know it won't happen?

All those prophetic disasters seem far too possible these days. Or is it just that news travels faster so we get to hear about things?

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Have a look here, there's lots of news about the tidal wave but there are other equally as harrowing stories too...

http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf

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http://www.networkforgood.org/topics...ahoo&cmpgn=CRS Loads of different ones.

https://secure.ga3.org/02/asia_earth...ce=aqt04_yahoo Oxfam

If you want to donate on line look at these website..

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You can also donate on line with,
www.dec.org.uk
or have your credit/debit details handy phone 0870 60 60 900
it's easier to get through on phone than web site.

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ten years later when ppl have long forgotten about it a tv channel is going to do a documentary about this - and then we will only know about the true figures of this tragedy.


its times like this i wish i was qualified as a doc i'd love to go adn help over there

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Saw a sickening report on the BBC news last night, re the indian government restricting access to remote areas for aid workers who want to assess the damage and co-ordinate the relief effort. So thousands will go without help because the indian government doesn't want to loose face.

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I think that one of the things that shines out from this terrible situation is the kindness being shown to survivors, regardless of their race or religion. And heroes, the people who have put their own lives in peril to save others. I also think about the aid workers who are having the awful task of cataloging the fatalities and collecting DNA samples, and my heart goes out to those who have the task of contacting relatives with bad news.

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What a truly HORRIFIC disaster...............

Words seem silly right now. Like so many others, wish we could do more than just donate money.

A-b did not see the news about Indian goverment, but sounds right. Can anyone else remember reports about The indian goverment testing Nuclear Bombs DEEP in the indian ocean a while ago. For every Action there is an equal Reaction :(

My thoughts and prayers are with ALL touched by this disaster.

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Link here to satellite photographs of the disaster in Indonesia and Sri-Lanka.

http://www.digitalglobe.com/tsunami_gallery.html

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I remember that. There's an answer for the people who called it an act of God and blame God for treating humanity so cruelly.

We can't expect to treat the earth the way we do and for it not to have consequences. Unfortunately innocent people suffer.

Thanks for the link A-b. I was reading an AOL blog yesterday written by someone close to the rescue areas etc. I should have made a note of it.

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I shall donate nothing, other than offer a few observations:

1) Numerous institutions had predicted an earthquake/tsunami in this region; while the science is such that it's timing cannot have been calculated, recomendations were made for early warning and alarm systems. These would have been relatively inexpensive. What happened? Nothing.

2) There are alot of odd figures being bandied about. The Swedish government, for instance, is saying that about 3,500 of it's nationals are missing; the British government is saying a couple of hundred. Why the discrepency, given the fact that that there would have been far more Brits out there than Swedes? Are we better swimmers than the Swedes, or just less docile? Can anyone explain this discreprency?

3) Why are governments now involved in a bidding war, each trying to outdo the other in the amount of taxpayers money they are going to give in "aid"? Most of these funds will invariably end up in bureaucrats' pockets or alternatively supporting the charity industry. Well, there's not much I can do about my taxes ending up this way, but please don't stick the collecting pot in front of me.

4) Some years ago, about 1 million people were killed in Rwanda (thats in Africa for those of you that don't know), in an act of systematic genocide, over a period of 3 months. What was the response from the West? Buggar all until it was all over, and then a couple of paragraphs in the papers and the odd item on t'telly. Why this discreprency?

5) Anyway, we'll all be back at work next week and the TV schedules get back to normal...I wonder what the disaster next Christmas will be ..2003 was the Iraq eartquake, 2004 SE Asia, 2005.....Canary Islands Tsumami?

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I read the Independent this morning and they had an interesting little table showing which countries had contributed what amount to the relief effort. One would imagine that since most of the countries affected are either wholly muslim or have sizeable muslim populations that the oil rich middle eastern states would top the list of doners, wouldn't you.

Quatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates and Turkey have managed to scrape together between them a total of £13,052,400. While the Great Satan and it's lickspittle, Great Britain, have so far managed £233,000,000 (not taking in to account public donations). Funny, that!

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It's getting worse, is'nt it? Now we find the government has organised 3 minutes silence on wednesday. Why 3 minutes for 150,000, few of whom are UK Nationals, when Rememberance Day is 2 minutes for 1.5million? I for one will not be observing 3 minutes silence, nor 2 minutes, nor 1 minute; I shall observe nowt.

This is getting as bad as that one week of madness we had when that woman Di and her mates paid the price for breaking the speed limit in Paris a few years back. Mind you, I suppose the scousers will be having their 3 minutes of silence. Thats all that lot seem to do these days.

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While I think you are entitled to your opinion Tealeaf.....I agree with Willow that it is a sign of respect for all the people who lost their lives in this tragedy.......what is 3 minutes out of a life time?

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Couldn't have put it better myself Margeret and Willow.

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My own opinion,ignore it if you wish;disasters like this show the fragility of our planet and the everyday lives we take for granted.This has helped me to put my own petty little issues into perspective and hopefully I will be able to live every day to the full and appreciate what I have got instead of moaning about what I want.

My sympathies to those who have lost loved ones in this tragedy.

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You are right on the button there......it makes any problems that I have, pale into insignificance......and it just goes to show how fleeting our existence can be.....and makes me more determined to make sure I leave something good behind me.
I only hope that those who lost their lives experienced a happy time before they were taken.

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The people of asia must be going through hell now and i want to be the first one to thank the driver of the stanley ultras coach for donationg the money collected in the whip around for him

It is the little thing like that which show a persons true colours

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Also just found out that they raised £1110 at Halifax and £170 at the stanley end alone

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DEATHS ON THE ROADS IN THE UK 2004 = 3,500 Estimate.

Right then, lets have 3 minutes of silence for them. Starting with all you lot above.

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Right Tealeaf I have been quite as asked...

Just found this site worth a quick look....

http://cvilleindymedia.org/newswire.php?story_id=1199

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You idiot, Simon. The Yanks did nuclear tests in the Pacific.......errrrr, I think this earthquake was in the Indian Ocean. As far as I'm aware, the last tests the Yanks conducted were severa years ago. However, our Muslim & Hindu friends on the Asian subcontinent have been as busy as buggary conducting their own nuclear tests in the last few years....where, I wonder? I would like to think that our Indian friends would now possibly be suspending spending on their nuclear programn to put some dosh in the way of their coastal defences.

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I can't believe that people are arguing about this. I am totally dumbfounded by such a callous attitude.

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I think everybody has the right to their opininions...even if you or I don't agree with them.

Callousness isn't the only issue, there are far too many leaders / governments etc. who are equally far more callous, and worse still, pretend to care.

Does the UK care more because we have donated 'n' millions?

Does Saudi Arabia care less because they have donated only 10 million, and raised 155 million for the families of suicide bombers who daily kill innocent people?

To put things into some sort of perspective;
There have been, and will be, more severe natural disasters, but to an individual, the loss of a loved one is more harrowing. It is the scale of the thing that astounds us...and the fact that the media are grinding out each and every heart rendering story to the last drop perpetuates the disaster to the last penny!

Indonesia is a large oil exporter.
India spends countless amounts of money on nuclear weapons.
Sri Lanka has a long time civil war, and spend most of its annual income on arms.
Thailand exisits off drugs, and the sex trade, and nobody knows what they do with their national income, corruption being the "norm".

But none of the above will bring back those who have died in the disaster, nor will things really change in these countries in the near future!

But that is my perspective!

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There seems to be some disagreement about whether or not this is the most severe natural disaster.


As some have said, any disaster is the worst to those involved in it.

Whatever governments do or don't do isn't always the fault of the inhabitants of those countries. If individuals are suffering and I can do something, however small, to help then I'd prefer to do so.

There was a report in the paper showing how this earthquake has actually affected the geography of the whole earth. The only thing I remember previously affecting geography was Krakatoa and that only affected a small area. Volcanic eruptions affect the country where the volcano is, but this has moved whole island groups to new locations and changed the shape of some, by squashing and bending. OK not by miles I grant you. The earth wobbled and has permanently speeded up!

I find that rather sobering. If there are bigger things yet to come then it's even more worrying. When Britain is hit I think we'll be thankful of any help offered by others.

And just because some people, countries, governments appear to be mean and stingy doesn't mean everyone should follow suit. At first the UK government was being criticised for such a paltry sum which was offered, but that was increased. I've seen different figures bandies about as coming from different countries but I don't really care who gives what just so long as people are helped. If human beings helped each other more and criticised each other less it could be a far better world. Yes, I know it's highly unlikely.

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Accrington Stanley have a charity match organised on Sat 29th Jan for the Tsunami appeal;some brief details on website.

Well done Stanley.

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Every disaster of this nature changes the Earth in some way. Tectonic plates are constantly moving and always have been thus explaining the formation of mountain ranges, underwater trenches, continents and volcanos. Many areas have been devastated by these natural phenomena in the past, Pompeii, Te Wairoa, Atlantis and Mu to name a few so-called lost cities/towns/civilisations. If you look at models and diagrams of how the world used to be millions of years ago it has changed quite dramatically. We are unlucky enough to be living in a time where we have now seen this change happen first hand. As Willow has said there has been a definite shift in the locations of some of the islands. I personally cannot begin to imagine the horror that the people affected in those areas must have been through and still be going through. I'm sure that any assistance, however small, would be very much appreciated by the people living in these affected areas. I don't think that now is the time to be getting into a bun fight about who has given what and how many minutes silence a tragedy such as this deserves. These disasters will continue to occur because that is how the natural world is. All we can do is help to pick up the pieces and to bear in mind that next time it may be us.

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Yes, let's help pick up the pieces whilst we can, but when all the money runs out & others don't come to your aid remember that for survivals sake you NEED people with Tea's attitude NOT namby pamby do, gooders!

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I personally don't see anything wrong with Tea's attitude. Two minute silences achieve nothing. I just don't see the point in arguing about it that's all.:D

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Hear, hear. I couldn't agree more. On another tack, what do we make of today's revelation that criminal gangs are cashing in on the trade in children orphaned as a result of the tidal wave?

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If there are bigger things yet to come then it's even more worrying. When Britain is hit I think we'll be thankful of any help offered by others.
and what aid would britain get? and from whom?the brits are so soft hearted and give genorously to countrys all over the world so if we give to them who would give to us.the world is a small place,there are attrocities happening all the time,we only get to see what the media wants us to see! Tealeaf talks as a person that believes charity begins at home!he is right,the people whose lives have been affected by all this will not see a percentage of what has been donated what you will see is a few palaces and grand houses being built for the higher archy.


WHEN THE WORLD STOPS ITS TIME TO GET OFF!!

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:( We have starving children in this country willow and you dont have to travel far to see this!

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Ahh but the world would be perfect without starving children needing to be fed, but, (AND THERE ALWAYS IS A BUT),no matter how generous the majority of people are when it comes to something like this there are always those lucky, selfish , little fat cats there on what is now popularly known as ground zero, that are prepared to take advantage of both the gullibillity of some & the suffering of others that are in need. Do not confuse your own guilt of, "there but for the grace of god.....", with I want to help, if you want to make a difference then never eat anything that casts a shadow! (Something from the Simpsons).

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We shouldn't have starving Children in the world, never mind this Country, but we do & no matter how much you wring your hands suffering will always go on in the world because that is the nature of the beast!

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why do you think we should not have starving people in this country willow?just go down accy centre and have a look around people sat on the pavement begging,people picking fag ends up,kids in dirty scruffy clothes,mums pushing prams about full of stolen stuff(+ the baby)take a step back and you can observe these things on our own doorstep!

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:D actually saw a caring mother the other day ? she was in the asda with two rug rats and she had bought a nit comb, that says to me she cares about the kids health.(havent they gone posh with these nit combs now)

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Just a quick thought, Why if the person that started this thread is so caring did they call it Asian Disaster? If you really cared shouldn't you call it HUMAN DISASTER?

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did the people who have died not come from all corners of the world?

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this is what you call disasters some people have short memories!



How do you rate "worst" when it comes to natural disasters? By the sheer size of the events themselves, the spread of impact, economic cost or the loss of human life?

By any of the above counts, the earthquake off Sumatra rates as a human tragedy, but is far short of the worst events of the past 100 years or so as humanity stretched and squeezed into an increasingly vulnerable planet.

If the measurement is loss of life then the 14,000-plus casualties of Sumatra pale in comparison to the earthquake that struck Tianjin in China on July 27, 1976. The official casualty figure issued by the Chinese government was 255,000, but unofficial estimates of the death toll were as high as 655,000.

A list published by the US Geological Survey includes a string of earthquakes where the death toll is measured in the tens of thousands. These include 200,000 deaths in Ningxia-Kansu, China in 1920; 143,000 in Kanto, Japan in 1923; 70,000 in Messina, Italy in 1908; and 66,000 in Peru in 1970. More recently, 50,000 died in western Iran on June 20, 1990; 41,000 in Bam, Iran in December last year; 25,000 in Armenia in December 1988, and 20,000 in Gujarat, India in January 2001.


Volcanic eruptions have also killed tens of thousands. The worst in recent times was at Mont Pelee in Martinique, Lesser Antilles in 1902, when 30,000 inhabitants of the capital St Pierre were killed. On November 13, 1985, an eruption of the Nevado del Ruiz volcano in Colombia caused a mudflow that engulfed the city of Armero and killed more than 23,000 people.

Floods cause more deaths each year than any other natural disaster, on average. China and Bangladesh, in particular, have been devastated repeatedly. More than 300,000 died in Bangladesh in November 1970 and a further 130,000 in April 1991, from cyclone-induced flooding. The flooding of the Yangtze River in China in 1931 caused an estimated 3 million deaths from flooding and starvation.

In terms of its spread of impact, the Boxing Day earthquake and tsunami that struck Sri Lanka, Indonesia, India, Malaysia and Thailand - at 9.0 on the Richter scale, revised from 8.9 yesterday, the fifth largest ever recorded - compares with the biggest events of the past century, including its biggest quake at a magnitude of 9.5 which hit Chile on May 22, 1960. The tsunami which it created struck not only Chile, but Hawaii, Japan, and the Philippines.

Perhaps the most famous disaster was the destruction of the Indonesian island of Krakatoa in August 1883, when an explosion that could be heard more than 4000 kilometres away caused a series of tsunamis, some as high as 40 metres, which killed more than 36,000 people in the coastal towns and villages along the Sunda Strait between Java and Sumatra.

Its impact was also recorded or observed throughout the Indian and Pacific oceans, the west coast of the US, South America and even as far away as the English Channel.

this is not the first or last!

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I still say we shouldn't have starving people in this country. There shouldn't be people sitting on the pavement begging. I'm not saying they aren't there, just that they shouldn't be.

I have also seen someone begging for money for food but when offered food he refused it because he wanted the money instead. I later saw him drinking from a bottle of cider - very nourishing.

How do you help these people?

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quick injection willow,or coat them with fox scent and let the dogs go...lol.

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Another quick thought, if Children in need is of any use, then, it should no longer be needed. NOT celebrating twenty odd years of irritating the hell out of every-one every year!

:mad:

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I still say we shouldn't have starving people in this country. There shouldn't be people sitting on the pavement begging. I'm not saying they aren't there, just that they shouldn't be.
its a strange word isnt it! or should i have said words?because how many times have we said to ourselves i shouldnt do that or i shouldve done this?(why is my text looking like phyliss out of coranation street?).

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I'm glad you feel grateful though I don't know what for, as for silly of course it was it was meant to be silly, it's just as silly as waking up this morning & finding on the news that the monies donated by the generous & caring people to the 'Disaster Fund' are now having the money cared for by a 'disaster Committee', pardon, excuse me, where has that come from? Did you nominate some-one for Chair-person? I know I didn't, will this end up like Diannes fund or the Faulklands fund? Bursting at the seams with cash earning interest with members not able to decide who is deserving & who isn't , still meeting years after the event & quickly going no-where?

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One thing i have to say is this kind of disaster is above all of us we can not start to comprehend the massive loss of life it turns into a figure which stops all connection that this is actual people with so many people dying and still the mahjour prospect of many more thousands if not tens and hundreds of thousands dying from poor disentry with the spread of malaria being a majour threat now. ON the news it is starting to show the aid getting threw to the first people but it doesnt and cant show all the others who are not in the news the many thousands that are left homeless, and dying just think of how many people you Know and then count how many this is and then comapre this with the massive amount that has died could you keep going if all your family, friends, loved ones and even enimies all died on you.

The only thing that we can do is to respect what these countries are going through many of them are heavily over populated and already lived in squaler

The majour problem with these disaster is that we all want to help we all want to save a life but that is very hard for us as we give our money to the charities but then we never see iot again we see the aid arriving on the news but nobody or not me thinks that it is my money what has bought that aid for them and this is the case. but just hopefully people will have it in thier harts to help the sufferers of this NATURAL disaster which could easily happen to us!!!

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we have respected every country that has had a disaster,people talk about it then forget about it!life goes on.

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Beautiful sentiments Steven I would not contradict with any of them, Nature proves every time that life will always be a struggle but while we can all jump around at the time of a calamity & say shame on you to those that don't wear their hearts on their sleeves, give it another month & ask the same people to spell Tsunami & they will probably ask what do you mean?, human nature unfortunately means we all too soon return to our own selfish ways the first thing that happens is the suffering of others is brushed under the carpet.

I probably feel no less than others about the suffering those poor people are going through. But, I for one am ready to admit that I am glad I am not suffering with them.
:(

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Different children have new and different needs each year and each year the charity is able to help. It sounds like a good reason to be pleased. The children who were in need 20 years ago are adults now and probably contributing towards helping others.

In my experience often the ones who do most for others are those with least to spare.

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Indeed, life goes on for most of us but how much more difficult for those who don't even have clean drinking water or a roof over their heads.

The mere fact that there have been disasters prior to this and will probably be disasters after this doesn't make this one any less tragic nor detract from their need of help.

Why the concern about the existence of a disaster committee? Everything needs some amount of organisation and co-ordination to prevent the very stagnation which critics fear.

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Why are the atheists claiming this disaster to be an act of God ?

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I think that you will find that athiests are crowing because the staggering loss of life would imply a less than caring attitude on the part of the deity, contrary to the claims of believers.

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That's because atheists do not understand the nature of deity nor the purpose of life.

But when you think about it, if they are saying that natural disaster implies an uncaring nature on the part of God they are in fact admitting to the existence of a being they profess not to believe in and so that alters the definition of atheism.

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Errrm, no. I think the argument runs... "If your god is so caring, how come he let this happen?" The validation of unbelief is implicit but not stated.

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That's a bit rich init Willow, an atheist does not understand the purpose of life!!

That implies that only believers of a god or deity can understand. Sorry Willow, but that's a worrying assumption of religious arrogance.

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I'm sorry if it comes across as arrogant. That wasn't my intention. I'm having difficulty understanding how an atheist can have any opinions about a God they profess not to believe in. Perhaps we need another definition other than atheist to describe people who believe in the existence of God but choose not to revere him.

I also don't understand an atheist having a view on the purpose of life as the only atheist viewpoint I have ever been made aware of (by an atheist) is that there is no actual purpose to life but that life itself is a mere chance happening, an evolution from a primordeal (?) "soup" and that whilst we're here we're here and once we're gone we're gone.

As a Christian I do not share those views but I respect people's right to have them.

If you are an atheist Darby and have a different point of view I would be happy to hear about it.

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Religon Arrogant!!!!!!!!! never;)

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Well my own view on the purpose of life is quite a simple one, and I expect people will disagree with me but that's not a problem. In case you are interested this is the shortened version:

We existed in spirit form prior to birth. Our spirits entered bodies which we currently occupy and the purpose of that is to learn from our experiences here, whatever they may be. Eventually we all die, our spirits continue to exist apart from our bodies. One day we will be resurrected, receive perfect bodies and continue to live forever. The things that we experience and endure whilst in this mortal life may also be for other people's benefit. We'll eventually understand it all in the end. I believe this mortal existence is a very small part of things. I also believe that we only get the one mortal life experience although I know there are many people who believe in re-incarnation and believe they have evidence to prove it. That's one of the instances where I have to agree to disagree with some people.

Again that isn't meant to sound arrogant. It's merely my standpoint. It's who I am and where I am.

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Did you know that religion is the cause of most wars?

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My beliefs are the same as yours willow, although i dont go to church or consider myself a religious person.

Re: Asian Disaster
 

I know that a lot of wars are carried on in the name of religion when in fact the very act of war itself is against the teachings of those religions (Northern Ireland being a classic example. If either side truly believed in what their religion taught they would not have done any of the things they did.) I believe politicians use religion as a means of recruitment and enciting people to violence - like the muslim cleric recently mentioned in another thread.

I do not believe that Islam truly teaches that it is required of members to kill non-believers. I think it's twisted to convince gullible people and unfortunately there are a lot of gullible people.

Re: Asian Disaster
 

Isn't it funny? You have to laugh really> I watched a Newsnight discussion the other evening in which the same question was debated by a moslem, an athiest and the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster. One would expect a chap of the Cardinal's standing to have the answer to the question of how a caring God could let such a terrible thing happen, down pat! After all is said and done, he is one of the people who will gather to elect the next Pope, for all we know he could even be the next Pope! instead we were treated to the most inept and bumbling series of half statements and bluster |i think I have ever heard. Basil Hulme must be spinning in his grave. And even after the athiest described god as a terrorist, the answers did not get any better. Strangly enough, it was the moslem who came out of the discussion with his credibility still reasonably intact, by saying that god was so different and removed from human expectations as to defy all attempts at understanding. Which is to say that; God moves in mysterious ways...etc. Which is nothing we have not heard before and is no more believable now than it has ever been.

The point about athiests that willow appears to have difficulty with is that, for the sake of argument, the athiests is prepared first to assume that the deity exists, and on that basis he then challenges the believer to account for the shortcomings of the deity. When the believer cannot, the athiest wins! The athiest has at no time during the argument accepted the existance of the deity, he merely takes a contrary position to prove a point.

Re: Asian Disaster
 

>> I do not believe that Islam truly teaches that it is required of members to kill non-believers. I think it's twisted to convince gullible people and unfortunately there are a lot of gullible people. <<

Actually the radical Whahabi interpretation of Islam insists on that very doctrine. Funnily enough, the Torah, the Jewish commentaries on biblical law, is equally as radical when it comes to the way in which Christians should be regarded by Jews. According to the Torah it is not unlawful, and is even encouraged, for Jews to kill, cheat, lie to and about Christians and also, where possible, to take them into slavery and buy and sell them like animals. This is not to say that all Jews take notice of the Torah any more than all Moslems take notice of the Wahabi interpretation of Islam.

But some do!

Re: Asian Disaster
 

>>an atheist does not understand the purpose of life!! <<

The purpose of life is actually quite simple and straight forward; it is to heed the biological imperative and reproduce in order to pass on your genes. The meaning of life however is a different kettle of fish.

Re: Asian Disaster
 

You can buy the Meaning of Life here....
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...843765-1476409 :)

Main Entry: athe·ist http://www.merriamwebster.com/images/audio.gif
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity

Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic http://www.merriamwebster.com/images/audio.gif
Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
Function: noun
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

Neither of the above are a crime.

Re: Asian Disaster
 

It sounds to me like the definition of an atheist referred to earlier is closer to the dictionary definition of agnostic. That I can understand. I can see where someone is coming from who accepts the existence of a God but dislikes what he/she perceives that personage to be and therefore chooses to have nothing to do with the faith side of belief or to have anything to do with such a God.

If the purpose of life is simply passing on your genes what is the purpose of passing on your genes?

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It's called biology, and every animal and plant does it

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I don't think that really comes into it.

Humans have sex mainly because they enjoy it, and everything else does it because they can't help it; they are genetically programmed to reproduce

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Willow that is the main question evrybody askes and probably never will be answered

I do not believe humans only have sex for fun because if they just wanted to have fuin surely they would use protection

every animal and plant on this earth is here priamarly to survive and secondly to reproduce and i for one do not really think we as humans are any different except we have a greater brain/ will power to resist these urges like as some people deicede to commit suicide this is against most peoples functions

Re: Asian Disaster
 

Animals and plants reproduce by instinct(who designed that in them?) for the benefit of a greater creation, Humans. That is their purpose in life.

By benefit I mean food, beauty, workers, pets and friends etc

Re: Asian Disaster
 

An athiest, a person who does not, and is unlikley to ever, believe in the existance of a deity, is as shocked and dismayed at the terrible loss of life which occured over Christmas as anyone else. And is further dismayed to hear others pronounce the event an "Act of God". Indeed, is actually quite annoyed at the logical inconsistancy of such an argument, bearing in mind all previous statements by believers that the deity they profess to believe in has only the good of humanity in mind and is all caring and all loving etc.etc.
In an attempt to convince the believer of the folly of their illogical opinion the athiest asks the question "How can your all caring, all loving God, permit this to happen to people whom you claim he cares about?

The believer, of course cannot answer the question in anything like a convincing manner and has to resort to specious arguments about the unknowability of the divine etc. The athiest, observing the believer with egg on his face feels thus further justified in his un-belief. The believer resents the athiest for pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes, but, patronisingly, forgives him anyway and continues to pray in the desperate hope that the deity knows what it is doing. The athiest sadly shakes his head at the believer's inability to accept the proposition that we are alone in the universe, that death is the end of life and that bad things happen to good people for no other reason than that the universe is random and chaotic in nature.

At no point in the argument does the athiest EVER admit that there might be even the remote possibility, under any circumstance, of the believer being right, to do so would mean that he is an agnostic, which he is not.

Thus, the recent Earthquake and Tidal Wave were merely random events. The consequent loss of life, however shocking and regretable are, likewise, random events. There is no more meaning to them than that. In this light, all attempts to explain these events as the actions of a wrathful deity on a section of the population that the believer might consider sinful or degenerate are deeply flawed since the laws of physics are not perturbed by individual human actions.

Re: Asian Disaster
 

The bioloical imperative, the impulse to pass genes on to the next generation, exists in all living things. From the lowliest single-celled creature to the vastly more complex higher primates and is obeyed by all living things at whatever cost. This is why it is called an imperative and not an optional possibility. The Salmon, like many other animals, ceases to have any further useful function after spawning and dies, within a few hours. Humans have some life left to to them after mating solely to ensure that the young they produce are protected and nurtured until they too are ready to mate. The human body is not designed for longevity after a certain age, which is why women go through the menopause and the NHS groans under the burden of the care of the elderly, whose lives have been artificially extended by our genius beyond the normal timespan alotted to us by nature. Thus it may be argued that abortion is "unnatural" solely in that it thwarts the biological imperative.

Re: Asian Disaster
 

I'm going to risk sounding arrogant again but I would like to put forward my viewpoint as a believer in God. A-b describes "the believer's" point of view but that isn't actually my point of view.

In fact I totally agree with the opening sentence of the last paragraph of post 94:

At no time would I ever describe such events as an act of God because I do not believe that he caused them to happen. I do not see them as a punishment by a wrathful deity. I would not have the arrogance to label whole sections of humanity (or even individuals) as sinful and deserving of such acts as a punishment.

Natural disasters are exactly that, natural - usually a result of cause and effect. Something happens somewhere and causes something else to happen somewhere else.

I believe that when mankind was placed upon the earth we agreed with God that we would take responsibility for it. He agreed not to interefere. Thus we would have the opportunity to learn. It's like with our own children. If we controlled every aspect of their lives for them they wouldn't benefit at all. We have to give them enough rope and hope that they don't hang themselves. More often than not they don't but sometimes they do.

I also believe that we can pray for help and that such help is often forthcoming, but maybe, just maybe sometimes it is better for us to "go it alone" and learn from our mistakes.

My "why?" questions are directed to the people who do not share my beliefs because I find it difficult to understand what they see as being the reason behind everything.

For me the purpose of life is to learn from our earthly experiences and to progress. Some of us probably need more experience thanothers. Some of us need different experiences. Disciples once asked Jesus why a man had been born blind and if it was a punishment for something he or his parents had done. Jesus replied that it wasn't a punishment. (interesting that they mentioned it could have been something he'd done, that would have had to be before birth considering he was born blind) So what was the purpose? To teach other people compassion? To give Jesus the opportuinityt to heal him? To give Jesus and his disciples the opportunity to discuss life before birth? Lots of interesting possibilities.

In response to post 95 I also think abortion is unnatural (unless it is spontaneous abortion by the body itself) and that artificially extending life is also unnatural. It's a topic we've discussed previously and I think I said then that we are better not to interefere too much with nature.

I only feel that I want to say all this because A-b described a believer's point of view and I wouldn't like people to think that it was mine.

Re: Asian Disaster
 

At no time would I ever describe such events as an act of God because I do not believe that he caused them to happen. I do not see them as a punishment by a wrathful deity. I would not have the arrogance to label whole sections of humanity (or even individuals) as sinful and deserving of such acts as a punishment.
Perhaps not, but there are those who do, and highly vocal they are too.

Natural disasters are exactly that, natural - usually a result of cause and effect. Something happens somewhere and causes something else to happen somewhere else.

I believe that when mankind was placed upon the earth we agreed with God that we would take responsibility for it. He agreed not to interefere.

Where in Genisis does it say that there was any such agreement? Adam was Told that he was to be given Dominion over the animals. As for an agreement of non-interference, how is this squared with events like the expulsion from eden, Noah's flood, The plagues of egypt and the ten commandments, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and the imposition of a messiah? If that is not interference I don't know what is, and can only be viewed as capriciousness on the part of the deity and also bad faith in not sticking to his part of the hypothetical 'agreement'.

Thus we would have the opportunity to learn. It's like with our own children. If we controlled every aspect of their lives for them they wouldn't benefit at all. We have to give them enough rope and hope that they don't hang themselves. More often than not they don't but sometimes they do.

I also believe that we can pray for help and that such help is often forthcoming,

Here again there is the problem of divine interference, which whether invited or not would nullify an 'agreement'.

but maybe, just maybe sometimes it is better for us to "go it alone" and learn from our mistakes.

My "why?" questions are directed to the people who do not share my beliefs because I find it difficult to understand what they see as being the reason behind everything.
Is it really so difficult to accept the possibility of the proposition that there is simply nothing 'behind everything' ?

For me the purpose of life is to learn from our earthly experiences and to progress. Some of us probably need more experience thanothers. Some of us need different experiences. Disciples once asked Jesus why a man had been born blind and if it was a punishment for something he or his parents had done. Jesus replied that it wasn't a punishment. (interesting that they mentioned it could have been something he'd done, that would have had to be before birth considering he was born blind) So what was the purpose? To teach other people compassion? To give Jesus the opportuinityt to heal him? To give Jesus and his disciples the opportunity to discuss life before birth? Lots of interesting possibilities.
And all of them callous and uncaring to a horrifying degree. If I had been born blind just to help someone else understand the need to be charitable I think I would be incandescent with rage and the responsible deity would certainly get no charity from me!

In response to post 95 I also think abortion is unnatural (unless it is spontaneous abortion by the body itself) and that artificially extending life is also unnatural. It's a topic we've discussed previously and I think I said then that we are better not to interefere too much with nature.

I only feel that I want to say all this because A-b described a believer's point of view and I wouldn't like people to think that it was mine.

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I can see why you would feel that way if you do not believe that you were a part of the agreement before birth. I believe that we freely accepted or volunteered for such roles and that it will all become clear to us once again after death.

Of course I can't prove it and I don't wish to argue about it. I'm merely stating what I believe.

Without my faith I would certainly have been unable to cope with the things which have happened in recent years.

I can also understand your objections to those who blame people's sinful ways for the misfortunes which befall them. None of us are without sin of some kind and it is very wrong to feel superior or "holier than thou" and look down on others.

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I have no religion, and do not go to Church...... but I believe in doing the best that I can in whatever way that I can, that will do the least harm possible. I don't know if I believe in a God, but am coming to believe that there is a higher being who (maybe) directs our actions. I am happy to live in a world where people can follow their religion and culture.
The disaster in Asia was a freak episode of nature......not an act of God.

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That makes a lot of sense to me Margaret. :)