Re: Council get something right!!
 

Re: Council get something right!!
 

No the Area Councils figure is the total budget of £145,000 staffing £180,000 grants [though last year they were cut so many times it ended up at about £45,000 in total - about half the £180k though is controlled by the cabinet - another Britcliffism] divided by the number of people who turn up. It comes to about £7,000 per meeting, or if you consider just the admin £3,500 thereabouts. There are 27-30 Area Councils in total a year. Average attendance in about 20-30. Its about 7% of our Council Tax.

Wardens are after all costs £19,000 each so thats 16 wardens. What the Labour Party was trying to say was there is a credible alternative on the table. Britcliffe hates this for another reason. His total election strategy revolves around blaming the government for EVERYTHING [ie hiding HBC affairs and playing to the anti Blair swing voters]. This includes Wardens, in his strategy is the icing on the cake of central government pulling funding. And he cant afford to lose that argument or else his whole blame game strategy collapses like a house of cards.

The government gave a fixed amount for a fixed period with the intention that the Council will take over the wardens. Which is what we are proposing. The Panopticons arrived at just the right time to once again move the people of Hyndburn round the board cleverly so they are facing the wrong way at an important time.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

You said it brother!

Re: Council get something right!!
 

I'm not fully following your argument, Terry. My understanding - and correct me if I'm wrong - is that the Panopticons are the brainchild of MPAA and that they would provide the initial capital funding. Further silver would come the NWDA although as to what purpose was never clearly identified.

Like most good people of Accy/Hyndburn, one look at the proposed designs is all that was needed to convince one that this was not only a colossal waste of money but a desecration of that lovely landscape, namely the coppice.

Irrespective of Britcliffes' posterings, are you telling us that you abstained on the vote on this? Could you tell us why? Councillors are elected - irrespective of their party - to make decisions on our behalf. We are not interested in empire building or grand titles, but simple and effective decision making. If you can't do it, then I suggest you don't stand next time round.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Planning lawe is very strict and non flexible.[because an appeal in court can be costly to HBC]. Its about ticking boxes. Health and Safety, access, use, character. very few decisions fall in the grey area and if so, they go to the Planning Committee.

This would go the planning committee but not based on personal views, but strict planning law and regualtions criteria.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Let me get this straight Graham, NWDA decided that it wants to give us a panopticon and plonk it in a public park, it then submits a planning application and provided that all the access and safety issues are covered the council is required to pass it, irrespective of the wishes of the people of the borough, who's only say in this is a half arsed "tick the box" consultation exercise?

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Sorry Graham...why did I call you Terry?

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Re: Council get something right!!
 

Well if I had my way I would burn the constition so we could end political games for ever and do as you propose. However the current Conservative group have a mandate from us the people and that includes political games. Thats democracy. Vote Labour and I'll personally persue the end of silly nonesense. As for resigning. I work hard for Peel. Very hard. And when Labour lost 500 seats last summer my percentage went form 65% to 69%. People outside Peel may not know me but people here do.


Oh and I am here to take critsism, I am not always right, I expect anything I say to be thought about and challenged because thats progress.

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Bollocks to the "officers"....whatever their opinions, councillors should do the job they are now handsomely paid to do, and that is to vote and overrule them in matters such as this.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

I'm with Tealeaf on this. I don't give a hoot that the funding for the pantopticon comes from external sources. I just don't want to see any ludicrous structure on top of the Coppice. It would appear from the Observer poll that the majority of Hyndburn resident's don't want it either. For once it seemed that popular opinion was being listened to.

We need councillors who are interested in what the people of Hyndburn think. To abstain from voting for reasons not connected with the panopticon itself strikes me as somewhat irresponsible.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Funding and the consequences of funding would not be a consideration for Planning or any officers to do with planning. The officers advice would be on H&S and access, character and all other legal regulations.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Actually, Graham, its good to see a Councillor on here and making such a contribution. I wonder what your opinion is on that other colossal waste of money known as the HyndburnLife site?

Re: Council get something right!!
 

I take in board what you say. It was thought about. However Hyndburn if you hadn't noticed is going down the pan - £27m in debt now - and the issue isn't the Panopticons, and making a political show out of the Panopticons is not the answer to our problems. As I said. Britcliffe knew he'd suck a lot of people in with this issue rather than the budget. It is important to stay focused on priorities. Its hard but you have to be realistic.

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Classic diversionary tactics...... The day Britcliffe goes is the day that Hyndburn will start to improve.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Quote:

Oh and I am here to take critsism, I am not always right, I expect anything I say to be thought about and challenged because thats progress

That's a fair comment graham.
Just picked this one up from tonights Lancs evening telegraph
http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/la.../NEWSACC0.html
This area was totally trashed during the market development, I know it needs re-vamping but why was it not made part of that market development, it was enabling work in the first place to allow for the new build, so as part of that contract it should have been made good on completion, total bad management on HBC's part.

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Hold on a minute...was this the meeting that was deferred because of the Walkers/Dingles kick about last tuesday? May I ask if you voted to defer this meeting and if so what your vote was?

Re: Council get something right!!
 

I'll take any critsism as long as its constructive. A lot of people think councillor, freeloader, likes his own voice etc... I work in factory and live on a poorish street in a poorish [and declining] neighbourhood and pay taxes as anyone else. How will the Panopticon alter the problems around here?? It won't naerly as much as budget decisions - like wardens. The budget is the priority not Panopticons.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Britcliffe asked me because he knows I am season ticket holder and wanted to 'spead the blame' AGAIN!!! I believe in consensus and the views of the other 15 Labour Councillors. They were for keeping the meeting as scheduled. It had been resheduled once by a fortnight originally to suit PB.

My view. My neighbourhood elected me and I accepted by putting my name forward. Dont like the heat get out of the kitchen. However my son would have really gutted to not have gone.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

It's simple. The Panoticons,if given the go-ahead, involve current maintainance expenditure in future years; no-one wants them, so why make make matters more difficult?. A simple and resounding "no" to the Panoticon is all that would have been needed and then down to the nitty-gritty of the 2005/6 budget.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Correct. Either £250,000 shopuld have budgeted into the MSD or the damage not incurred. The whole MSD was and is a disaster.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

yes, it would get a yes advice on the bottom of the report then 5 Tories and 4 Labour Councillors would vote on it.[on legal grounds only that is]

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Can you therefore tell us how much it cost to defer the meeting, and if in the budget set for 2005/6, a sum is allocated to pay for future deferred council meetings to allow for Dingles/Walkers/Stanley footy matches, Britcliffes excuses, etc?

Re: Council get something right!!
 

sorry I missed this one.

The real decison takes place at Cabinet. Planning is only a legal check that it passes neccessary regulations/guidelines. Planning is very strict and narrow focused. Cabinet will have decided the big decsion prior.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

No unfortunately. Its our building so there was no cancellation charges or staffing charges because it was overtime. There ws some cost because it clashed with an Area Council in Clayton which had to be rescheduled. THe figure banded about was £1000 but I am not sure about that.

More importantly was the Rishton by election. If it had been called on the 5 May it would have cost £2,000 but now its next week it is £6,000. PB thinks the hight turnout of the 5th will mean a loss opposed to holding it next week means that Rishton has the chance to 'bash Tony Blair' before the general election and win a local seat. Is that honest politics?

Re: Council get something right!!
 

But presumably the overall council is sovereign over "cabinet" and should sufficient Tories rebel against a cabinet decision and throw it out there is nowt that Britcliffe or anyone else can do.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

>>Correct. Either £250,000 shopuld have budgeted into the MSD or the damage not incurred. The whole MSD was and is a disaster.<<

Which council department then is, in your opinion, responsible for not ensuring that the development was planned and managed correctly?

Re: Council get something right!!
 

IMHO Nigel Rix and Hyndburn First. Hyndburn First was cut to much slack and allowed to operate as a quango by PB and the Tories who wanted to move away from Labour Town Hall fiefdom. Except the beast had two heads. The rest is history. Welcome Blackburn and Darwen Council Regeneration Arm to run Hyndburn.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

No. Council has very few powers now. It passes the budget thats all. Plus any constitutional changes and passes the minutes of meetings. Thats it. Everything else ends at the Cabinet. Its a very closed system designed to fast track desicions.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

The Panopticon threat is something on many people's minds and a lot of us suspect it could end up leading HBC even further into debt. As Tealeaf says what about future maintainance and even the peripherals such as improving access to the site which doesn't come under the umbrella of MPAA?

Can't HBC just decide not to have a panopticon and then get on with life?

Point taken about your son being gutted if he couldn't go to a football match but would it have been possible for you to opt out of work if the match had been played in an afternoon?

Has he ever thought of supporting Stanley?;)

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Re: Council get something right!!
 

I have only been there once. It was externally funded jointly with Pendle. It seems a bit glossy. What exactly is wrong with it as I don't know?

As for the chap that said I should resign and jumping out of decisions. I am not a dishonest person and I do not approve of dishonest politics.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

I respect peoples views who have thought through the Panopticons and make an honest decision whether for or against. Was it Sarter who said progress comes from revolution and counter revolution?

HBCs debt is £27million. 33,000 Council Tax payers. About £800 each? Many loans taken out at fixed rate because of boom and bust of 80's and 90's, some as high as 14% fixed. Average Council Tax payment is about £130 to HBC. Even if we knocked 20 quid a year of the £130 it would take how many years to pay?

We cant maintain the coppice. sadly there are only two options Engish Nature as nature reserve and thats a long shot and funding I am not sure about and the substantially funded Regional Park. Yer makes yer decision, yer lives with it.

Stanley. We go when we can. It great to stand on terraces where you want to it and not be fleeced for simply being a foot fan. BTW last year the Labour Group voted to either reject all free tickets [with free bar] or accept them and donate every penny to charity. So if you see me in the bar, I'll be adding it all up and there will be a cheque given the Lab P Sec.

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I must qualify that: A yes providing it met regulations. Of course a no if it didn't.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

A least there will be a £75,000 saving, for the moment.
And PB welcomed Blackburn with Darwen :eek: So who are they responsible to,or are they to be allowed to do as they please

Re: Council get something right!!
 

[QUOTE=WillowTheWhisp]The Panopticon threat is something on many people's minds and a lot of us suspect it could end up leading HBC even further into debt. As Tealeaf says what about future maintainance and even the peripherals such as improving access to the site which doesn't come under the umbrella of MPAA?

The question is Will the Regional Park provide ongoing funding? If so how much? then we should make our decision on that.



Can't HBC just decide not to have a panopticon and then get on with life?

Yes. No Panopticon and lets get on with improving the site. No matter what happens the FoAH will carry on working for improvements. Life would be a damn site easier with the Panopticon though from funding discussions we have had.



Point taken about your son being gutted if he couldn't go to a football match but would it have been possible for you to opt out of work if the match had been played in an afternoon?

I am lucky, yes. The boss wouldn't have missed it for anything. He alters the factory schedule for England World Cup and European Championship Finals. Unusual I know though England matches it is becoming a bit more of the accepted norm now.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

To cabinet and PB. Its a straight forward contract. They are very good. What did PB say. No No No to Panopticons and No No No to Blackburn. Bill Taylor [Blackburn BC] was like Hitler with his tanks at Hyndburns door didnt he say. Across PBs dead body.

Just another press headline that sucked many folk in when you look back because the real debate was stifled and people only had their fears to go off. Deja Vu.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

>>No. Council has very few powers now. It passes the budget thats all. Plus any constitutional changes and passes the minutes of meetings. Thats it. Everything else ends at the Cabinet. Its a very closed system designed to fast track desicions.<<

If this is so, then what is the point going to all the fuss and expense of electing so many councillors? And where does the idea of democracy feature in all this fast-track jerrymandering?

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Ay Blackburn with Darwen have some "grande" ideas/plans, don't know if HBC can afford them

You mean he left with the normal "Golden Handshake"

Re: Council get something right!!
 

And how many more like him are still in position?

Re: Council get something right!!
 

funny you should say that bob.

Richmond Council who are all Tory or quasi Tory have been studying Hyndburn and in the brief chat I have had with several of them they branded it awful and described PB as dictator. She described the cabinet as a disgusting & continual election roadshow. And it is. And thats Tory outsiders.

I suggested sarcastically to the Tory leader that the Labour Group would appreciate this monopoly on power if we got back in and she gave me an awfully hard disgusted stare and said "no matter what party benefits its disgusting". Sometimes Tory allegiances can be extreme so the thought that Labour might one day have that level of power clearly cleared her thought processes. I just wish Tories in Hyndburn could be as lucid in their thinking.

The last 5 years have been disastrous. In 1999 we were 10.9m in debt, now its 27m. Still you can always blame Tony Blair at the ballot box. Might make HBCs problems much worse, but it still makes some people feel better.. [ i say that sarcastically from canvassing on door steps - forgive me]

The one year we had in power we discovered how awful it was. It was probably that level of personal stress that caused the Labour Leader Ian Ormerod to have a stroke.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Couldn't possibly comment of course.

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We have got a fantastic Managing Director. PBs best ever decision. David Welsby. Can't say enough good things. Still, cant make a silk purse out of sows ear.

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by the way if you wonder why the long thread. I am laid up ill with the flu and acheing all over. It dilutes the pain.

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Yes really interesting to read, thanks Graham. What party do you represent, and in which ward? lf it's not being too nosey!

Re: Council get something right!!
 

It doesn't. As it currently stands PB constitutionally has the last say on everything and if he hears something he doesn't like he will lie to the opposite extreme to muddy the waters. He generously gave the opposition 2 debates a year, however at the end of the debate the summing up is done by him [can you believe that!].

And of course because we dont have cross debating, you cant challange a lie or a deciet, its always the last word. He rarely does scrutiny and is clever and devious and helped by Tory chairs its always a whitewash. Its totally corrupt and we are going to pay an awful price for that moral corruption.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

The minority party Labour. And Peel Ward. My current research is on Market Halls and our Market Hall, though i feel the Regional Park and ELP should be up there as an issue of the moment to find more out about.

I want to know the who the movers and shakers are within and what is their ambition and what is concrete [money wise etc..] and what is speculative and can we still progress without a Panopticon. And if we dont get one, to lobby for that funding, which of course through the FoAH we will be doing.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

And my other research project is the growing scandal of 'top up' on rents and slum landlords in Hyndburn.

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Thanks Graham, hopefully you will not be in the minority after the next elections.

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Re what you were saying about The lady from Richmond. All power corrupts and absolute power, corrupts absolutely. Does the District Auditor or the Local Government Minister, Nick Raynsford, have nothing to say about such apparently flagrant bending of the rules. Presumably the people from Richmond will be submitting a report to someone!

BTW Raw Onions, My grandmother used to swear by them, Raw garlic is good too! As is pure unset honey.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Cheers!!!!!!!!

cheers

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Re: Council get something right!!
 

Bloody Hell! I`m beginning to regret starting this thread....
Countryside by committee, it makes me sick. So if we don`t have the panopticons and don`t get the additional funding, what do we lose? Let the Coppice return to nature, as it needs and has recieved very little funding over the years. Form a Friends of the Coppice group and renovate the paths ourselves and not get included in the glossy area park literature so our pound shops are a secret to the outside world.
I`m off to the library tomorrow to find out what the restrictions on the gift of Peel Park to the borough are

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Freedom of Information Act, just ask the council and save yourself the hassle of having to think it through :)

Re: Council get something right!!
 

I have found your explanations very enlightening, but I am still not in favour of the Panopticon Project.

I hope you are soon feeling better!

Re: Council get something right!!
 

Thanks Margaret. I am somewhere in the middle to be honest. Whilst some people made up their minds right away, i think a lot of the inquisite people are hanging out for more info and a more balanced view, whichever way that is. Its better to have different opnions and suss out from that what is best. Avoid the lemmings crowd!

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I'm just against ruining one natural monument by covering it in facile, cheap, bad "art".

Which I suppose, on reflection, is also my opinion on the town centre redevelopment.

Anyway I have had enough for one day and I am logging off - goodnight all.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

So when a prospective councillor tells me what he will or won't do if I vote for him he is in fact wasting my time as there'll be nothing he can do to change the way things are?

I was joking when I said "Hyndborg BC" but it's beginning to sound like I wasn't far out. If this is truly the case then I fear the council doesn't represent the electorate at all and it makes not one ha'porth of difference how the residents of the borough feel on any subject.

I'm beginning to feel very depressed.

No wonder the Ardale Clock hasn't seen the light of day again. How long before a Panopticon ends up the same?

If HBC cannot "maintain" the Coppice (although I'm baffled as to what there is to maintain about a hill - the monument and shelter haven't been touched for years except by vandals) why is there this idea that a Panopticon up there is going to produce funding from some external source?

Re: Council get something right!!
 

I`d hate people not to use the Coppice, though it`s not overused at the moment. Most of the paths erosion is due to bad drainage following the overplanting of conifers Or active positive forestry in council-speak.
As for the freedom of information act, forget it. I don`t want to wait months and pay. The council probably don`t know there are conditions attatched to the Peel Park land!

Re: Council get something right!!
 

All power corrupts and absolute power, corrupts absolutely.

I know this is an Accrington thing but hey if we talking absolute power and corruption what about that little Hitler in London old red ken himself isnt he something to do with the Labor party?

Re: Council get something right!!
 

So when a prospective councillor tells me what he will or won't do if I vote for him he is in fact wasting my time as there'll be nothing he can do to change the way things are?

depends. but politically IMHO yes. Of course you can work outside of the Council [which I try and do and raise external monies]. What you are now voting for is not a ward councillor but a collective. who runs cabinet. Labour or Tory and who is your ward councillor is much less important than what colour he flys. Its the cabinet system that has created this.


I was joking when I said "Hyndborg BC" but it's beginning to sound like I wasn't far out. If this is truly the case then I fear the council doesn't represent the electorate at all and it makes not one ha'porth of difference how the residents of the borough feel on any subject.

it only matters if a bad decision is found out. And thats 99% a press thing.


I'm beginning to feel very depressed.

I have to live through it. Even if Labour wins power back in Hyndburn with a £27m debt what do you think our agenda will have to be? Its depressing.


No wonder the Ardale Clock hasn't seen the light of d
ay again. How long before a Panopticon ends up the same?

I doubt the Panopticon will go ahead. If your gambling I would say 70.30.


If HBC cannot "maintain" the Coppice (although I'm baffled as to what there is to maintain about a hill - the monument and shelter haven't been touched for years except by vandals) why is there this idea that a Panopticon up there is going to produce funding from some external source?[/QUOTE]

The Regional Park have secured a big pot of grant money for this wider concept of selling East Lancashires appeal to a wider audience.

Someone suggested the Panopticons are more important than the budget and that I was letting Hyndburn down not voting in the sma vote last week at full council.

People who think the Panopticons are important clearly have a scewed perspective. People in Peel would accept an 80 ft concrete cow up there of it meant safer streets, lower crime, better housing, getting rid of landlords, dirty back yards, anti social neighbours, poor job prospects, drug dealers, juvenile nuisance, dereliction and fire starters.

It funny how someone derives at that notion the Panopticons are important. No one has wrote to me ever abut it, nor syooped me inthe streets pf Peel nor rung me up. One lady did mention it after half an hour as a throwaway last week, but she was ringing about Parking tickets and juvenile nuisance. And her opnion was no but wasnt important. The average Joe in a poor area simply isnt bothered.

In fact the only letter writer to Ob to critisise me was upset that I was spending to much time with 'twittering birds and nesting seasons' whilst Peel ward faced real poverty problems. Not true of course. He was going of what he had read in the paper!

At all the resident groups I attend the one issue is when is the council going to invest some money in Peel. Never ever once the Panopticon. People cant be bothered with it. Its not important on peoples agenda around here and as they elected me to put forward their prioroties, then that is clearly the buget buget budget. You'd have to creek your neck to see where the Panopticons features in the list. Sorry but thats Peel Ward.

Now for some people to whom this issue is at their heart this may not be what you want to hear. But you have to respect other peoples considered views. I did the right thing and I'll tough it out with anyone trying to hijack peoples view who elected me. We want investment [wardens a start] in Peel to begin to reverse the decline.

Thats the only message I am getting from the people round here. Peel has now officially dropped into one of the most deprived areas in the country. It has the highest vacancy rates on the Borough 11%, one of the highest landlords at 16%, the highest concentration of bad landlords, some of the poorest health stats. Go and talk about Panopticons on Horne Street where neighbours houses are derelict, abandoned and are fired out by vandals!

Or the needle infested smack den we closed last summer 50 yards from my front door near where my son and his friends play. And the constant stream of smoke screened BMWs screeching by at all hours.

When Cllr Britcliffe puts the Panopticons before that for political gain then yes I will do what is right and ignore the lesser issues and try to force the agenda back onto real issues that affect real people. Why HBC has a £27m debt and why the people of Peel are getting shafted.

I dont expect you to agree, but I hope you respect the facts and where we the residents are coming from.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

I would question the planting and erosion. Horses and access rights have come under a big spotlight as well and most of the top of coppice is plantation free and Arden Hall is a natural and varied ecosystem. And the paths there are abysmal. The cost of maintenance of the historic plantation road is beyond the council and at meetings we hold, people want some investment and it saving.

The planting affects the Peel Park front side of the coppice mainly, however their are 3 main strategic access points, 4 if you count the car park on the A66

The FoIA is one simple letter of request and the legal maximum time of reply is just 21 days. The conditions are kept in Asset Management over in what was Hyndburn First in the Globe Centre and they can be accessed within a couple of minutes. Though the actual terms of any covenenant may be more than a few lines.

They also have a newish database but I dont think that level of detail is on their yet.

Re: Council get something right!!
 

I wouldn't describe inhabitants of Accrington who are interested in their surroundings as having a screwed perspective. Simply because some of us have a point of view regarding the Panopticons doesn't mean we don't have a point of view on other subjects also. But it's beginning to look like it doesn't really matter what the local people think because it isn't even the council who make the decisions, it's a small section of that council. This doesn't sound like democracy.

Now I'm getting confused. You say the people of Peel ward elected you to put forward their priorities. Just as I vote for my local councillor based on what he tells me he will do once elected. But from what you've said earlier regarding what goes on in the Council then the individual councillors have very little effect at all.
I still don't see how abstaining from voting on the Panopticons issue solves any other problem. I'm sure quite a few of the people of Hyndburn feel their views are hijacked when a decision is made to have something on top of the Coppice which the majority of people who voted on the issue have said they would rather not have.
It's none too brilliant here in the Scaitcliffe area either. My main complaint as many of the AccyWeb members will know because they are probably fed up of hearing about it by now, is the rubbish in the streets. It's worse than Whinny Hill tip up here and it starts every bin day when at least one sack ends up emtying its contents down Willows Lane and Ormerod Street. The resulting mess is not cleaned up and then settles in corners and in people's gardens. There is one unmade back not a million miles from Scaitcliffe House where I wouldn't be surprised to see rats and often the smell is appalling. That can't be blamed on residents because that rubbish blows down Ormerod Street, round the corner and lodges in the grass and weeds where it proceeds to rot.

Each time someone puts up for the council they say that rubbish on the streets will be a priority. In my naive little way I believed them at first and voted for whoever made the most promises regarding improving the state of the area. Now I no longer need to wonder why none of the promises have ever been kept because if I've understood you correctly once elected there is very little they can actually do on the council.

This leaves me wondering what on earth we are voting for.

However, although rubbish is my main concern personally and it affects me personally I am also interested in wider issues and I have an opinion on other things. If I were told that a concrete cow on the Coppice would solve my rubbish problems, apart from the fact that I'd query how, I don't think I would be all that willing to accept a concrete cow because apart from not enjoying living on a rubbish dump I also actually do enjoy the wider environment and don't want to see it spoiled by something which would be tasteless and tacky and not in keeping with the area.

I also dislike the latest "improvements" to the town centre - I feel the building which houses JJB sports and Wilkinsons is out of proportion to the rest of the area and that the market isn't half as good now it is so cramped.

Surely we are entitled to our opinions on the town as a whole even if they will be largely ignored.
It's not only the people of Peel who have problems but wouldn't it have been a simple matter to vote one way or the other and then move onto other issues? All of these things affect the residents of Hyndburn some affect a small minority and some affect the majority but all are valid.

I think it was Tealeaf who brought up the subject of the deferred meeting for the sake of a football match. That seems to have taken up rather more time than a vote for or against the Panopticon would have done.

It's not that we feel the Panopticon is more important than other issues, it's just that we have opinions on the subject and would like to think that the council we elected might take some interest in our opinions.

Somebody else could probably have put that much better than I have.

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Re: Council get something right!!
 

>>I would question the planting and erosion. Horses and access rights have come under a big spotlight as well and most of the top of coppice is plantation free and Arden Hall is a natural and varied ecosystem. And the paths there are abysmal. The cost of maintenance of the historic plantation road is beyond the council and at meetings we hold, people want some investment and it saving.<<

On the question of maintenance, or rather the lack of it, neither party, in my opinion, has anything to crow about. The current state of dereliction in our parks and open spaces is the legacy of decades of underfunding and neglect for which the labour group is equally as responsible as the conservative group.

There is however, a largley untapped resource that might be turned to the benefit of our green areas. The Magistrature appear to be only too willing to hand out Community Service Orders to offenders, could some of these not be directed at reversing the effects of the council's neglect? The costs would be a good deal less than having that well known oxymoron Hyndburn Works doing it. After all, how much does a brush and shovel cost?

I am sure that it would go some way to inculcating a sense of pride, achievement and ownership in the people who worked on such projects and it would also be more healthier for them than sorting filthy clothes in charity shops.

I also think more of an attempt to involve youth groups in reclamation projects would be helpful in countering the "I smashed it because I was bored" mentality prevalent in so many young people. Could there be any objection to nominating parcels of public open space to schools as an area for which their pupils have some of the responsibility for maintenance, in the manner of sponsorship or stewardship. It strikes me that a lot of the problem with vandalism in these areas is because they are not seen by young people as belonging to anyone in particular.

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That's because the country is too damn soft!

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great bob. your signed up. we have an agreement for young offenders to work in Arden hall but we are working on so many things it is good to have another willing volunteer. The committee have welcomed a probabtion services offer last year, so when can you help us bob? They are ready and waiting and you have the support of all the commitee. Thats a serious offer.

As for politicians and open spaces, Labour ones. I hope I am not cast in the same light having not had an opportunity to change anything!

As for kids. I think we are the only group that has engaged schools in the area. Yes, gone through risk assessment and still got kids on site. We have more activities planned for summer with all 4 primary schools [helped by MPA actually!]. We are just tendering for a £50,000 contract [external funding got by us] for improvements. We have worked as hard as we can.

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I take on board your point and your view and I agree with what you said. All of it.

PB used it as a tool to control the budget debate, to try and expose Labour as some local trendy lefty art loving daft loonies. With an election coming up PB couldnt afford to take any flak so for once he took a cabinet decision to full council 'for a show of hands'. Clever politics. He ran Labours budget out of town, exposed us a bunch of loony lefties and got a council mandate for tricky cabinet decision. The panopticons was a tough hurdle to jump but he cleared without touching the frame.

The reality is this item has come up several times, we have had 8 council meetings since the debate began at least. Members of the public will now not know that Labour proposed 2.9% council tax and the Tories 5%. Or that under Labour 24 wardens will employed straight away or all the hard work we have put in over 3 months for this meeting.

Like the thread says 'Council get something right at last'. PB played it perfectly to the electorate and the chap that started the thread probably thinks better of PB now this decision has made. One of the items not debated was the sacking of the only two bus station inspectors just so we could have a panopticons debate. Is that good governance?

I am an honest person and want the best for Hyndburn. I agree with the chap above that issues should be dealt with in a responsible way.

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>>Thats a serious offer. <<

I'm not going to say yes, now. But I'm not going to say no either. I will need to know an awfull lot more about this before I make a decision.

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Well thanks for all the comments. Its been very interesting. We will keep going, Panopticon or no panopticon. I did like the whistling wall and I could put up with the stone slabs.

And to Bob. Well, we'll keep working on. You know where to find us if you think you can help. Friends of Arden Hall or The Peel Park Bowlers Association. Thanks.

Apologies for the political rant BTW. Sometimes passion comes from the heart.

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Don't need to apologise as far as I'm concerned Graham. It's been a very enlightening discussion and anytime you can pop back and keep us informed of current events I'm sure I'm not the only one who will be pleased to hear from you.

Meanwhile why not just stay and have fun on the rest of the site, or pop over to Jambutty for something completely different.

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Will agree with your comments wtw, as you say most enlightening, look forward to the next one
Thank you Graham.

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"The chap that started this thread probably thinks better of PB now"
No!
Thanks for your many comments, Graham. As this thread was originally only about the panopticon but has diversified somewhat, I think that it`s no surprise that we agree with you on many of the issues posted but they will be on other threads.
I agree with a-b about getting some people on community service to help repair the Coppice paths and I think this was done a few years ago, though a friend of mine has worked with a group of them and said they were late arriving on site ( by two hours ) and bone idle.
If councillors are issued with free laptops and i`ve seen Tim O kane carting his around, why don`t more come and visit us on this site or do they spend there time on Hyndburnlite?

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I don't think your point about the newspapers is right

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I have learned more about local government in this thread than ever in my life before.
I value the passion and honesty that you show Graham.......I wish there were some national politicians who would tell it like it is......instead of feeding us the homogenised pap that they think we want to hear. If that were the case, I wouldn't be in such a quandary about voting in the national elections due in May.

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There are 8 laptops, 4 each [Lab-Con]. I object. They are not a priority. Some older desktops would have done given the financial crises. The govt [our govt] is pushing all councillors to be e-enabled!! The recent report was that this should be rolled out to all 35 [in line with gov 'target'!] but savings would have to found. I don't have one.

So many important tings have gone unreported yet when ever PB speaks it gets printed. About 4 months ago the council realised it ws spending money twice and had run up a double spend of £484,000. They had to borrow that money to pay off the short term debt. When PB blamed Labour for bills in the bottom drawer [an excuse bordering on a lie] in 2003 with the £1.8m overspend he said words like 'under us.. under control.. public could trust.. getting hold of situation...financial responsibilty...strategies..safeguards... etc' and it was all reported. However 12 months on a half a million is mispent [AGAIN!] and how column inches did it make. At that meeting PB got another populist topic put on the agenda and so it goes on.

The wardens. The press keep reporting a shortfall in govt funding. No its not. Thats a lie. PB says the govt has short changed the councl. Year on year grants above inflation have left the council cash rich. Since 1999 the goverment increases are +36%. Inflation is about 20%. And in 2003 Housing Benefit payments were altered and that benefited us by 500,000, [of £8m - so about another 6% on top of 36%].

Rate rise have been above inflation as well. This year 5% [Tory], last year 3.9 [Tory], the year before [Lab] 3.9 including 1% national insurance that year!, the year before 7.9% [Tory] the year before that 0% [Tory] the year before that 4%? [Tory]

What was reported a lot by the press was this years govt grant. Shortchanged ran the headline. The govt had reset the funding formula and under the new one [compared to what we would have got with the old one] we lost £400,000. PB said - printed by the press - the govt had sold Hyndburn down the river. Well the governments grant AFTER this recalculation was still an overall increase of some 6.2%. It would have been 12% with it. So hows HBC getting a bad deal PB? And why are the papers not reporting the events accurately?

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I have made comments several times in other threads concerning the apparent contradictions in funding and basic arithmetic committed by the Idiot in Chief.
Now do you believe me!

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I haven't posted here before, but I had to comment on some of Coun Jones' comments made earlier about the state of the press.

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While it is true that each and every newspaper has some sort of political bias, and often an agenda on certain issues, to tar the press with the same, sweeping brush is just wrong. As a regular attendee of council meetings across East Lancashire, I am aware that the local press are one of the only groups that do make an effort to attend as many meetings as they can. Radio stations, for instance, do not, and tend to cobble together news reports from the local press, meaning 'facts' can become even more debatable.
On the whole, the press must report the general 'feeling' of a council meeing, or a local issue. Often this seems to be done by guaging people's reaction to issues through monitoring the letters page, or responding to phone calls. But much is done through attending council meetings.
Despite many people's views on PB, it has to be admitted by all that when the leader of a local council comments on an issue, it will generate more interest than when a backbencher speaks. This is unfortunate, but unnavoidable. However it is also a newspaper's job to highlight issues where the counci has gone wrong. A quick search of the LET's archive of neighborhood warden stories, for instance, will show that PB has never been given an easy ride. And just look at the Accy Ob's recent storys on the Panopticons.
My advice would be to keep up the comments on this site, but to add to their weight by writing letters, making phone calls and attending meetings. Imagine if just 20 members of the public attended each council meeting, as is their right!

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Simply as a member of the public, but a member of the public who likes to keep on top of things. I like to know what I'm voting for!
I'm sure I don't get to enough meetings, but every little helps.
After having been on the town centre walk last year, and seeing that more council staff were present than members of the public, it's an issue close to my heart.

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I think Dillon is right. I found stuff on the LET archive while researching politcal bias in the local press for my history A-level (I wanted to compare the present situation to that in the 1930s) which would suggest that the paper has given Britcliffe a hard time. It was the only paper to report Labour things on a number of occasions, and the only one to cover the court case of PB's (now late) ex-partner. I am interested to hear people's experiences of being covered by the media, though

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Despite many people's views on PB, it has to be admitted by all that when the leader of a local council comments on an issue, it will generate more interest than when a backbencher speaks.

Why? Are you saying that backbenchers dont need to be reported on or that if by some sort of nepotism a person becomes a leader he is then more eloquent and knows more about the subject matter so therefore has to have more time given to him. Seems like the local press is getting more like the nationals by having an agenda to report only what they want to hear.

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Well no. What I said was, 'it will generate more interest than when a backbencher speaks.' That is why, I'm afraid, most of the comments on Accringtonweb centre around our esteemed council leader!! And not, for instance, worthy councillors who work just as hard for their area. Ann Scaife for instance, or Dave Parkins, whom I know many people admire.
When PB comments on an issue, he is doing so as the leader of the council. So if he says something controversial, or positive, he is also commenting 'on behalf' of the authority as a whole. It's like when Tony Blair speaks, we pay more attention than when for instance Peter Pike, MP for Burnley speaks. It's just the nature of the game.
However, backbenchers should be reported on more I fully agree.

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So open it may get him in trouble! I imagine PB wouldn't appreciate being labelled as corrupt in an open forum other than a council meeting. (Where Graham can basically say what he wants without facing legal ramifications thanks to our libel laws!)
But it would be nice to hear from others. Anyone know any friendly, computer literate councillors?

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Morally corrupt. [R U an officer?] Anyway there are some things that arent exempt in Council. Basically you have to believe truely what you are asking and you are exempt as I understand it.

As for the papers I think you make some good points. PB does get stick. With a sense of balance, PB should get the benefit of being OUR democratically elected leader. It difficult to measure what is fair and what is fair. Out of curiosity I calculated the last week in Feb Ob and the week following and in column cm it was [Feb 27] 80 CON 11 LAB [Mar 5] 181 CON 80 LAB.