On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I won't be here on Monday evening to read the replies but look forward to doing so when I return.

Some points I'd immediately like to raise are:

1) Why does this panopticon have to be on the Coppice? Why can't the Coppice be left alone and a work of art be placed elsewhere?

2) Who is going to look after the thing when we've got one? Even earthworks can be vandalised.

3) As regards this idea of concentric circles of earth with gathered rain water between - have the safety aspects been considered?

4) Please explain how anything stuck up on top of the Coppice is going to be of benefit to the town and bring investment in.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

i just nipped out for a pack of ciggys from the margram and when walking back home i looked up at the coppice and thought of the following

if it is been put on the coppice to attract people to accrington and generate revenue what good is it up on the coppice as when people are up there looking at it they wont be spending any money for starters unless were building a shopping complex up there as well

people coming to see it will simply drive right to the base of the coppice and walk up to see it so again totaly bypassing the town centre

the way i see it the most revenue it will attract is a few busfares from the few people sad enough to come to accrington just to climb a hill and look at some alleged piece of art and go back home


i have many more problems with this project and other questions but will let somone else have a turn :)

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Glad you could show yourself at last Gayle, It's a pity you could not be straight forward like Graham Jones who gained much respect on this site simply by being honest.

You said..." I am a resident of Hyndburn and thus entitled to have an opinion on this subject. I must stress that any opinions that I express are mine and mine alone, they are not necessarily the views of any other member of any organisation which I am involved with. As I am also closely related to this project I am in a unique position."


Sorry, but that is untrue! YES, You are entitled to an opinion as much as anyone else on this site BUT, You are paid as a press officer to convince the public that the Panopticon project is the way to go. For those Accy web members who have missed Gayles intro comments, they are here: please click

The comments made by the members are genuine worries by the residents of Hyndburn. Mr. Peter Britcliffe tells us that we are in debt and cannot afford the upkeep of the area but whatever design is placed on the coppice, WHO will pay for future maintenance? WHO will stop grafitti? If the Panopticon is going to be such a great crowd-puller, are there going to be toilet blocks built as it is so far away from Accrington? Will the Hyndburn council make the Panopticon available to all including the infirm? At the moment, only the more fit people can access the dangerous climb up to the top of the coppice, Have you personally been up there?

Loads of questions, with I am sure more to come, but P.Britcliffe has so far failed to answer any of these, perhaps you can?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

MMM............Sounds interesting...............a piece of art on top of an hill?........Who the hell is going to go and see that?.......The only time i went up there was in the dark at night with my cb in my car and spoke to people far and wide.
Who had this brainwave?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Haven't you got one lined up in Colne then Jason?








.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I certainly hope not,there are enough sites to look at on a saturday night!!

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

For the benefit of everyone else, I've copied the text from Gayle's first text. I hope you know what you've let yourself in for Gayle.



Some of you will be aware that I have been viewing this website for the past few weeks. I have shied clear of coming on in person because I did not want to antagonise some of you anymore. However, it would appear that I have become the public face of the Panopticon project within Hyndburn whether I like it or not and therefore, I am getting the majority of the flak for it. I can’t help but take this personally because some of you have made it personal.



So, I’m here and I’m willing to answer any question about the Panopticon project. I will answer any question as truthfully as I have the knowledge to do so, if I don’t know the answer I will tell you that I don’t know the answer. I will not answer any postings that I consider to be abusive or irrelevant. I am a resident of Hyndburn and thus entitled to have an opinion on this subject. I must stress that any opinions that I express are mine and mine alone, they are not necessarily the views of any other member of any organisation which I am involved with. As I am also closely related to this project I am in a unique position.



I understand that art is very subjective and it is everyone’s prerogative to like or dislike any individual pieces of art – there are some artworks that I don’t like but that doesn’t mean they are bad. There are two issues at stake here 1) the rationale behind the project in the first place and 2) the aesthetics of the design. Let’s not get these confused because they are two very, very separate things. It is possible to appreciate the rationale behind the project without liking the design – if that’s the case then let’s work together to get a design that the majority would be happy with. If you don’t understand or know the rationale behind the project I will happily answer any questions for you.



I will return on Monday evening to post answers. If you send me a private message I will reply by private message. If you post your question within the thread I will answer within the thread. I do not want to inflame the situation any more than it already is I simply want to open a discussion that will ensure that you have all the facts. I also want to put some people straight on some things that have been said about me.



So first of all let me get a few things off my chest and bust a few myths that have been posted about me personally over the last few weeks;



1. I do not hold any power whatsoever, I am a press officer. That means that I have to make sure that the media hear about anything that is happening.

2. I will not receive any bonus when the Panopticon is built. Salaries paid in the Arts are very low, compared to industry.

3. Slightly off track but whilst I’m busting myths, the Vagina Monologues did not cost anyone to put on. I was given the rights free by the author, everyone in it gave their time free of charge, I paid £30 to hire James St Club and posters cost £42. We made £420 in ticket sales and after deducting the £72 that I had spent I gave the rest to The Women’s Centre on Abbey St.

4. Finally, and again off subject a little – Mid Pennine Arts would never advocate graffiti. We spend a lot of our time on education programmes and out of school activities to keep the kids off the street.



I hope you take my presence here as a good thing, and treat it in the manner in which it is intended, as an open and honest attempt to talk. As a resident of Hyndburn I too want the best for our town.

I look forward to reading your postings and joining you again on Monday evening

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Gayle

1.how would this work of art be best viewed
2. will there be any provision for the disabled (DDA) to gain access to this work of art.

Two basic questions to start things off.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Fellow webbers, please don't let this become abusive, l think it's good that Gayle is going to try and answer our questions.

My question, does this grant have to be spent on the Coppice, which seems to be one of the main objections, we love it as it is why guild the lily? Would the same grant not be available to be spent on a town centre project, or does it have to be spent on 'landscape' art?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

How about using the grant for something worthwhile................like a childrens local charity,or for the elderly?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

l'm not saying we've been rude so far, but we have given her a fair amount of stick in other threads, lets have a clean fight:)

Another question, how much of the grant will be paid to the artist?
Is there a breakdown of how the grant will be spent?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Sorry Garinda but if you check, you will find that she has only one post to her name and that is in the "intro" thread! I took the liberty of moving her comments to the "General Chat" thread so that more members were likely to read her comments and reply to them.

I personally disagree with what she says and more importantly, the way she says it However, she IS a member and is entitled to air her views.

One other thing bothers me and that is that commercial advertising is not allowed on the site and she is blatently selling policies on line! If she asked permission from Roy or the moderators that would be fine but considering that her one and only thread was started in the intro thread, I am very doubtful that this is the case.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

We will be keeping our eye on this thread to make sure things don't get to heated :) I am certainly not going to get in the way of an open discussion with someone who knows more than most of us about the Panopticon project.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I look forward to reading this thread when I get back at the end of the week and hope that there will be some good answers.

I don't think the grant money can be spent on anything other than a work of art to tie in with the other panopticons such as Burnely and Rawtenstall but I don't see why it has to be on the Coppice. I think I'd be willing to put up with something somewhere else which would have the advantages of being easily accessible by all and easily visible and reasonably vandal proof and requiring little or no maintenance.

Any chance of something which fits that bill?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Has everyone seen this on the Panopticon website?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

That statement alone shows a total lack of understanding of Lancashire weather.

It will not merely collect rainwater in the winter months. It will not merely collect "small ribbons" of water. What about when it chucks it down for days on end? What about the soggy wet horrible summers like we had last year? Will there be any drainage at all? How deep are these furrows and how deep will the water become? Has the possibility of a child drowning in the stagnant water been considered? The safety aspect alone is one for concern.

And please, please, please not more trees. We've already got trees which make the Coppice look alien to those of us who remember it in pre-tree days.

I would be happy with a refurbishment of the monument and shelter and leave the rest alone.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Have you read the rest of the site. I wondered what a panopticon was, here it tells us.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Well there you go:

Quote:

Panopticons is an ambitious four-year project to create six new architect-designed landmarks for East Lancashire – one in each district. They will take the form of shelters, viewing platforms or beacons and will be built on high-point sites on key routes around the East Lancashire Regional Park, commanding stunning views

We'll have a shelter please. A nice big one so when it chucks buckets down up there we'll all be able to keep nice and dry.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

[QUOTE=Busman747]Sorry Garinda but if you check, you will find that she has only one post to her name and that is in the "intro" thread! I took the liberty of moving her comments to the "General Chat" thread so that more members were likely to read her comments and reply to them.

l just meant that Ms. Knight's name had come up in other threads recently on the same subject, which did become a bit personal even though as a recent columnist in The Accrington Observer she has made her public profile open to discussion.

[Off thread l know but re: art's in Hyndburn, she should be congratulated for helping to bring theatre to the Borough that was a lot more interesting than the usual second-rate tribute bands, and Cockney has beens that we are now being offered at the Civic Theatre.]

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Unfortunately someone in the public eye connected with a controversial project does tend to draw a bit of flak. I'm sure we'll gladly praise her where praise is due. It's just this panopticon business which a lot of us are none too keen on and her name and email address were put forward as the person to contact if we wanted to make our views known.

So often we seem to be faced with nameless "powers that be" who do things which we grumble about afterwards. It would be much nicer if we could have something the majority of us could feel happy with and have no need to grumble about afterwards.

Main requirements I feel should be:

No destruction of well loved areas.
Little or no maintenance.
Safety.
Access for all.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Personally I am hoping that she will start her own thread.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

On Behalf of Gayle Night - 28-03-2005 00:52 - yeah right

Whoops.... Upset you did I, Three Karma points off for asking that you show someone who had the bottle to come and answer your questions. Well there lies a truth. It’s not really about Gayle Night or the Panopticon project. IT’S ABOUT YOU AND YOUR ******* OPINONS isn't it. Get a grip. Yeah your views are important, but so are those of the good people of this site. So pack it in and let people ask there questions..........Thank you.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I am confused, who was that aimed at Doug

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

The reason this thread was started was because Ms Knight asked people to post questions etc in her intro thread and that is contrary to forum rules so Busman set this one up so we could all post our questions in here.

Incidentally her name was spelt incorrectly when he did that. It should be Knight, not Night.

I'm just wondering to myself now if it might not have been best to get opinions from the inhabitants of Accy (not just people on here but by newspaper polls etc) before anyone was commissioned to come up with any designs at all.

I don't think it's a vendetta against Ms Knight. she's just the spokesperson and so is on the receiving end of our comments. If she posts in other threads which have notjing to do with this subject I don't think she'll be treated any differently than any other AccyWeb member. At least not by me. If she has time to join us here more regularly I hope she enjoys it.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I was getting paranoid for a minute then. Shh, whats thats behind me?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

The problem I have willow is that people are not really asking questions in this thread. Those that have ask questions are likely to lose out because of the back ground chatter, the all point of taking it on ones self to move the thread as been lost. You have a number of fine and responsible questions being asked and then a load of chit chat clogging up the thread. That all I was asking that people leave this thread for questions for Gayle. Is that not what Busman intended? If so why deduct points for making a genuine point. If this woman decides not to participate because some can’t leave it for people to ask there questions then its those people who are doing Accrington and its people the disfavour

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Maybe it would be better if she held an online discussion in AccyChat

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I'm very sure that the Moderators of this site know what their doing and I'm sure that they would have put Miss Knight on the right track....Maybe a report to them would have highlighted Miss Knight error. That’s there job is it not….

Just to beat this doggy a little further. I was not criticising Busman or his motives. What I was doing was asking that once done a little self control should have been exhibited and people should be given room to ask questions. If you want to debate we have more than enough threads to do it on…

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

bl**dy hell Neil, now that I want to see........:)

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Well she wanted to come back on Monday and answer any points posted in her thread. That was the way she chose to do it. Apart from a little wander by someone defending her in another context I thought most of the thread was panopticon orientated. Hopefully she'll be able to fish out and respond to the relevant bits.

In a way it's better having the replies posted in a thread rather than in a chat room and only seen by those able to be there at the time. If she posts here than we can all come back and read it later (like me who will be off on hols and unable to read what she says until I get back) It's better to read her own words than just have a report of what she said by someone else who was in the chatroom at this time.

This way there's no risk of her being misquoted.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

probably not one of my better ideas. Might get a bit mad. If things got out of hand she could always leave.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

As an ex-inhabitant of the area may I be permitted a question? Is there an opt-out clause or is the Panopticon a fait acompli apart from finalising the design?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Good question. It looks like it is going to happen no matter what. Just a case of the council doing what they want and ignoring us voters like usual.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I am not a biker but it looks that good I might start. I think it would be ruined by bikes. The police would do nothing to stop it either.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I do not think the idea of your giant ripple that could only be seen by helicopter, or your steak pudding mounds mean anything to Accrington. I would of thought if you had done something of rememberance for the Accrington pals on coppice there would not be any dispute.

We will remember them.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Well flame me down for saying this if you like, but I for one am all for having some form of artwork on the coppice. I am not saying it necessarliy has to be one of the designs so far put forward, but something up there to show that accrington is indeed a town trying to move forward and progress is definitely a good thing. This artwork should represent the here and now. Come on people lets get progressive ???

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I too am in favour of the project, but could we please just have questions for Gayle on this thread and please let's try not to answer them ourselves with more misapprehensions. The whole point of this is that she knows what she's talking about and we don't necessarily.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by PurpleLass The whole point of this is that she knows what she's talking about and we don't necessarily.

Hmmmm, well, that remains to be seen.
But I do agree, lets have some questions for Ms Knight. Here are a few quick ones to be going on with.

1. Since the Coppice is such a sensitive area, why can this project not be located elsewhere in the borough?

2. Why do we appear to be stuck with Mr Beard as the designer. Can we change him for someone else?

3. What is the point of having a landmark that can only be seen from the air? I don't know whether you have noticed, but there are not that many owners of light aircraft in the borough.

4. The Furrows are designed to fill up with rainwater, fine. But, what about the safety aspect?

5. The design is said to be 100 metres in diameter, how does this equate with the previously stated aim of preserving the existing trench layout of the site and how much damage is going to be caused by earth moving machinery?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Why don't we just wait for her to start her own thread so a sensible ish discussion can take place.

This thread would be better off closed.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Quick question , I presume a study has been done, so How Much is it going to cost in the long run for the upkeep of the final design, ie not just the cutting and trimming of grass but the pathways, roads, shelters??,litter collection etc. I also presume that Hyndburn will pay for this upkeep is it in the scope of the council tax or will it have to increase or cause an increase in the future?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Hi Gayle!!

Just a couple of quick ones for your perusal. The inward investment for path upgrades, carparking ect . Who will follow this up, HBC or the Regional Parks scheme? How definate are you of this money appearing? Why was this not costed into the regional parks scheme project?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

This one's a bit more practical;given the scale of this "art",presumably it's not something you could dig by hand....Coppice/JCB how????

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Good evening everyone, thank you for posting questions

But once again I start with an apology. I did not know protocol and posted my initial letter in the wrong place, thank you to Busman747 for putting it in a more accessible place.

For information, I was invited on a couple of weeks ago by a member and although it’s taken me a little while to pluck up the nerve to do it I had hoped that we could have a discussion without me getting even more flak for doing what I was asked to do.

Anyway, onto the subject in hand. I will answer every question in order that they were asked – I’ll sort of skip over the conversation bit in the middle of the thread. If I disappear for a few minutes it’s because I’m answering private messages individually, I did say that I would do that.

I will state FACTS if I know them but if I don’t I will be honest explaining why I don’t know them. I will once again stress that any OPINIONS expressed are mine and mine alone – they are not the opinions of any organisation that I am involved in (by that I mean Oswaldtwistle Players, Hyndburn Women’s Forum or Mid Pennine Arts).

So it would make sense, I think, for me to explain the origin of the project. Bear in mind I only joined it a year ago and the project has been running for almost three years already so can't give you specific dates of events but I can get things in the right order. This might be a bit longwinded but I’ll keep it as brief as possible because I do want to get on to answering your questions.

Around three years ago ELP (East Lancashire Partnership) and NWDA (Northwest Development Agency) developed the idea of a Regional Park as a marketing tool for the whole of East Lancashire. This encompassed the six boroughs of East Lancashire:- Blackburn with Darwen, Burnley, Hyndburn, Pendle, Ribble Valley and Rossendale. They sourced some money from Central Government for the regeneration of this area to make it appealing to businesses to set up camp here and to make it less appealing for residents to move elsewhere. They approached Mid Pennine Arts to create some artwork and thus the LAND project was born. The LAND project is involved in working with the public to create things like waymarkers in forests, teaching willow weaving as a skill, and other earthy related traditional arts events. This was not high enough profile for ELP and NWDA so they asked MPA to come up with the idea for a higher profile project. MPA came up with the idea for six landmark sculptures, the PANOPTICONS, on the hills of East Lancashire, one in every borough. At that point, from what I understand, the six Councils were approached and all of them agreed, steering groups were formed and internal officers (in most cases the Arts Development Officer) were appointed to progress the project.

An open competition was held by RIBA (Royal Institute of British Architects) to select the first three designs for Hyndburn, Blackburn with Darwen and Pendle. This was open to architects around the world, including local architects. They received 180 entries, Mid Pennine Arts narrowed it down to six designs for each borough and the winning designs were selected by the specific steering groups for each borough (by the way, Mid Pennine Arts has no vote in any of the steering groups and these groups are made up of Councillors, Officers and people who have specific involvement in the immediate vicinity of the proposed site, i.e. local community groups who are active around that area). At that point the Halo (the big UFO shaped design) was selected for Hyndburn. As you may know, it was later rejected after media scrutiny and a change of leadership from Labour to Conservative within the Council. What you may not know is that it is now being sited on Top O’Slate in Rossendale and has attracted £300,000 extra investment for that site. Anyway, we started stage 2 in January this year to get the remaining three designs for Burnley, Ribble Valley and Hyndburn.

This was done differently by appointing a Curator for the competition and by inviting specific up and coming architects to pitch for each site. Again this was done to the steering group (members now include Cllr Brian Walmsley and Cllr Tony Dobson, by the way). The steering group selected three architects to produce draft ideas. These three ideas were exhibited in January around Hyndburn and comments forms were completed by members of the public – designs were also shown in the local papers. Working from the comments forms and with their own instincts the steering group unanimously selected Peter Beard’s earth work ideas to go forward. Again, I’ll remind you that Mid Pennine Arts had no vote at these meetings. Although, I’ll agree that it was the one that we favoured at the office there was no influence involved.

Peter Beard was then allowed time to redevelop his design. He took on board all the comments from the steering group, he avidly read the local papers and letters that came to the office and he attended meetings with a local school and local community groups. He then produced the new design which is the point we’re at now.

So, a bit long winded but essential for the discussion I think. One of the things that I want to get out of this discussion is what your actual objections are – is it the site that’s causing a problem, is it the aesthetics of the design or is it the over all rationale behind the project that’s bothering you? After I’ve answered all the questions I’ll put a poll at the top of the thread for you to complete.

I’ll keep plugging away at the questions, feel free to add more at the end and I’ll get to them too.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I think a concern of many people here is about the future upkeep of the project. How can we believe HBC is going to manage this when we all see the state of our local parks.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Questions from Willow the Whisp



1) Why does this panopticon have to be on the Coppice? Why can't the Coppice be left alone and a work of art be placed elsewhere?

This is a tricky one in some respects as I wasn't around when the decision to use the Coppice was made. However, from what I understand Mid Pennine Arts, ELP and NWDA took advice from Hyndburn Borough Council and officers from the Council. I can understand it being chosen as an appropriate site as it does give fantastic views across the borough and is the closest to the key town in the borough. It would also be fair to say that it does need a bit of tlc at the moment and the extra money that the scheme can attract should be able to help there.


2) Who is going to look after the thing when we've got one? Even earthworks can be vandalised.

The responsibility of maintaining the site does remain with HBC. I think the issue here is that HBC don't really maintain the site at the moment. Peter Beard, the architect feels that the actual earth work should only need strimming once or twice a year to keep it tidy. As for vandalism an earth work is the least likely to attract vandalism as compared to other options we had. But, I know this is a serious concern so please allow me to consider this carefully before replying.


3) As regards this idea of concentric circles of earth with gathered rain water between - have the safety aspects been considered?

What I think Peter Beard means is that they will form and grow in the same way that the trenches have. I personally agree that having them collect water is not ideal and so perhaps some drainage system should be incorporated.


4) Please explain how anything stuck up on top of the Coppice is going to be of benefit to the town and bring investment in.

It starts a ball rolling and has a knock on effect - this has been shown in other towns so we know this to be a successful model. Gateshead is frequently quoted as the best example of this. People were against the Angel of the North but since it has been built the town has started some huge regeneration schemes, most (not all) of which have come to fruition. It attracts attention and publicity and says 'hey look what we're trying to do'. Accrington has an extremely staid image and by embracing a piece of modern art it will help to change that image. I've had requests from serious BBC 2 programmes about featuring the scheme and Accrington in particular. Once regeneration starts business start to return, retail improves and residents stop leaving for elsewhere. No one has ever claimed that the Panopticon in itself is the be all and end all of our town's problems but alongside the other things that are happening in the borough it all adds up to quite a strong regeneration outlook.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

It may not significantly increase the number of actual people who go up the Coppice per se, although I'm sure a few extra people will visit it and then pop into the town whilst they are around. Mostly, it will attract attention to the town in a positive way and will help to promote the town to businesses and retail. Take a look at any brochures promoting Gateshead to business and they always include The Angel of the North. It is like using a shorthand description of the town.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

It may help if the project funding was explained. From what I understand no HBC money will be spent on the project.
If this is true then it is in fact a freebie for Hyndburn using someone elses money that we would not have to spend on anything else anyway.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

My main objections are the siting, why can't it go on Oswaldtwistle Moors, there's more room and won't be as obtrusive and there is some parking.
You mentioned Anthony Gormley's 'Angel of the North', l don't think the chosen artist has the same cache on a world stage. l think a more well known artist would have put us more on the map and given us more prestige.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Answers to Busman747's questions

Quote:

It's a pity you could not be straight forward like Graham Jones who gained much respect on this site simply by being honest.

I thought that was precisely what I was doing by coming on the forum.

Quote:

WHO will pay for future maintenance?

HBC will be responsible for future maintenance as they are now.

Quote:

WHO will stop grafitti?

It is very hard to paint graffiti on grass which is what the surface of an earth work is made of. I don't expect graffiti to be a problem. However, on the subject of graffiti, Peter Beard has been in touch will English Heritage and they have said that if we submit an application to them for some funding they will most likely provide the means to refurbish the monument and shelter - something that has been long needed.

Quote:

If the Panopticon is going to be such a great crowd-puller, are there going to be toilet blocks built as it is so far away from Accrington?

No, it's unlikely that there will be a toilet block built.

Quote:

Will the Hyndburn council make the Panopticon available to all including the infirm? At the moment, only the more fit people can access the dangerous climb up to the top of the coppice.

The Panopticon itself will not make the Coppice more accessible to the infirm. However, as part of the wider scheme it is hoped that paths will be done so access should be easier. The main route that is used is from Avenue Parade and I agree that is very steep for a wheel chair (also steps make it impossible) but that is not the only route up there. The route via Arden Hall is being reviewed at the moment and Friends of Arden Hall have applied for a lot of funding to look at paths and access.

Quote:

Have you personally been up there?

Yes, many times.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Reply to Jason

East Lancashire Partnership and Northwest Development Agency asked Mid Pennine Arts to come up with a high profile scheme to promote the Regional Park area of East Lancashire. They came up with the Panopticon scheme, a plan to put six landmark sculptures on the hills of East Lancashire.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

There is a Panopticon scheduled for within Wycoller Country Park, on the Haworth Road car park. It was part of phase 1 and has already been through planning permission and accepted. It will be put in place later this summer. It is called The Atom and is a sort of egg shaped viewing room that gives great views over the whole of Wycoller. It also offers a little bit of protection from the wind as the Haworth Road car park is quite exposed.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Yeah C'mon Gayle;how are you gonna get a JCB up there? And really;what is the point when it's basically a kiddy death trap and a rally biker's heaven???

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Quote:

The Panopticon itself will not make the Coppice more accessible to the infirm. However, as part of the wider scheme it is hoped that paths will be done so access should be easier. The main route that is used is from Avenue Parade and I agree that is very steep for a wheel chair (also steps make it impossible) but that is not the only route up there. The route via Arden Hall is being reviewed at the moment and Friends of Arden Hall have applied for a lot of funding to look at paths and access.

Why is all this not included in the initial funding for the poject.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Is there a problem with bikes up there at the moment?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Welcome to the board Gayle. Thanks for joining us and thanks also for the detailed rundown of the situation to date.

I really have to take issue over the comparison of this project with The Angel of the North. the two things are completley diffferent, in scale if nothing else, but also different in cost (£800,000), and completley different in impact and visibility.

Yes, I agree that the angel has worked wonders for Gateshead. But I do not agree that the current proposal will produce similar results for Hyndburn. How does Mr Beard answer the charge that his work is a pale pastiche of the work of Charles Jenkcs, and as such will probably have the opposite effect to that which is intended?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

mmmmmm...............i'll watch out for that one!
I go down wycoller.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Reply to Park381

The art can be viewed in a number of ways. One, from within it. One of the points of a Panopticon is to provide a viewing point so that you can look out at the views of the town, so you have to get into it. Secondly, it can be viewed from the hill which over looks it, I think it's called Hambledon Hill. Lastly, from the air - I realise this is not going to be the most frequently used method but pictures of it from the air will be quite spectacular.

On the subject of disabled access. In addition to the answer in an earlier question - in Rossendale where they will be having the Halo, they have looked at widening some roads to allow disabled owners to drive their cars a little further up the hill than is currently possible and are providing a disabled car park. I don't know if that's a possibility for the Coppice but it will be investigated as one aim is to make it as accessible as possible to as many people as possible.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

You see Gayle this is one of the problems, the cash strapped HBC can't be trusted to maintain it. Who's going to kick HBC's backside when it becomes a dilapadated joke?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Reply to Garinda

Yes, this money does have to be spent on this project (not necessarily the Coppice) but on a Panopticon for Hyndburn. It has not come from HBC and can not be reallocated to anything else, if we don't use it for this we will lose it and all the additional funding that it's likely to bring in.

I mentioned not necessarily the Coppice because the brief was to find a hill overlooking a great view of the borough. Like I said earlier, the Coppice was selected by all the partners in the project - HBC, Mid Pennine Arts, ELP etc as the most appropriate. In Ribble Valley, the site selected was Kemple End. A few weeks ago it was realised that the residents of Ribble Valley, who had little or no objections to the actual designs, were specifically against the use of that site. We are now working with them to find an alternative site.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

As I replied to garinda, it has been given to the project specifically for the purpose of a Panopticon. We can't use it for anything else.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

in 2 years time when there is a pile of rubbish and the project is neither finished nor funded and everyone involved has been promoted and couldn't give a Rats Ar#@ about Accy whos going to pick up the pieces?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Oh, so we are going to have a carpark built up there as well are we?

It is interesting that you should mention Hameldon Hill, has anyone spoken to the owners of Cold Harbour Farm and Miry Farm to see what they think of having to accomodate increasing numbers of people walking across their land? Considering the problems they already have with members of the public using their land, I don't think they are going to be too thrilled.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I haven't got all the facts to hand on this one so I can't say exactly but I believe it is in the region of £10k to the artist. This is not simply for his idea though. This is for his idea, workshops with local schools and for working with the project managing the build over the next two years. Anyone who does a job, which effectively he will be doing to manage the build, would expect a payment.

He will not build it with his own bare hands so the work to build it will go out to tender to approved business (approved by Hyndburn Borough Council). There are no materials being brought on or off the site so I assume that the build will literally be the labour costs involved and machine hire. I hope that a local business will receive the contract and ideally that would be the case, as I said they will certainly get the opportunity to tender for it.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

will there be a cable car running up there as well from the now very little used town centre?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Gayle

The estimated cost of this project is "£50,000" what is actually included in that figure, have there been any site surveys to check if there is in fact enough material up there to complete, have thoughts been given to access for contractors equipment, and damage caused by that equipment in getting to the site.is that included in the £50,000.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

On the subject of vandalism again. The most likely cause of vandalism will be via quad bikes or mountain bikes making grooves in the sculpture. Again referring to Rossendale, the additional funding is enabling them to build fences and stiles around the wider area so that bikers simply can't get that high up the hill. This will hopefully be part of the wider scheme.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I agree wholeheartedly on the subject of rainwater collecting and think it will look unsightly and spoil the over all look. I think that drainage should be incorporated and I will suggest it to the artist and the team. So, on that subject I'm afraid that at this point I can't give you a better answer.

I think what has to be remembered is that the design and the project is in its infancy in Hyndburn and it is right to keep bringing up these issues now so that something can be done about it. I would hate for it to be like Diana's memorial fountain when issues were only raised after the thing had been built.

The only tree that is being considered is an oak tree right in the centre of the rings. This would symbolise the oak-ring-town name. I personally agree that the other trees should be thinned out - it's a bit unnerving to go up there as a woman alone, even in broad daylight.

Funding for the refurbishment of the monument and shelter will applied for from English Heritage and it's been intimated that we stand an extremely high chance of getting it.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

sorry i have to correct you there gayle

the most likely graffiti will be spray paint and fire

both the shelters and the monument are or have been covered in spray paint

the easter cross has been burnt to the ground plenty of times in the past and only last year some kids set fire to the dry grass while i was flying my kite with my son and i had to call the fire brigade to put it out as it was getting bad

all i see it doing is providing a place for kids to meet up and drink booze and leave broken bottles behind and whatever else they choose to do

anyway thats another point but quad bikes etc are the least of the worries regarding vandalism

edit:

i cycle up the coppice on my mointain bike as part of my recovery therapy am i vandal ...?

edit again

sorry gail i thought u meant mountain bikes on the coppice as a whole i just realised you meant riding over the teletubby houses

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

When the three designs were exhibited in early January this year, one of them did incoporate a shelter. The design was rejected by the steering group and by the comments forms that we collected at the time. Peter Beard's earth works were unanimously selected.

Again when we're talking about the wider scheme, we are looking at plans to renovate the shelter or replace it.

In Rossendale they've received an additional £300,000 for things like paths, car parking, disabled access, fencing, stiles and bulb planting. They've got this money from REMADE, who have already told us that funding for the Coppice is highly likely should the Panopticon go ahead. We have had the argument levelled at us that this is blackmail - i.e. you'll only get the extra money if you accept the Panopticon. That simply isn't the case, HBC can't afford to do the extra stuff that's needed, the money has been made available for the sculpture and if the sculpture is built that will give REMADE a reason for pitching in with the extra funding the Coppice needs.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Gayle, you have painted a pretty picture so far but those that have designs on the coppice (Oops, no pun intended) have NOT taken into consideration the views of the locals that use the coppice, the local population that live around the coppice and the fact that it holds fond memories in the hearts of the many that were brought up in the area and they do not want change!


Also, can I bring to your attention an article in this weeks Accrington Observer in which they quote Peter Britcliffe, spokesman for the HBC (and NOT one of my favourite peope) but for once, he is making good sense!

ACCY OB: "But after weeks of controversy, it has again been met with a firm "NO" from Hyndburn Council leader Peter Britcliffe"

P. BRITCLIFFE: "How many components of the word NO do these people understand and how many parts of the words NO NO NO do they not understand?
I have been hearing how the tide is turning but I have had people contacting me over the weekend saying there were only about 20 people at the public meeting including officers, and even out of those not everbody was in favour.
The council has rejected the idea of a Panopticon and, from the response we have had since, it would seem that there would be a possibility of having something that includes a picnic area and the paths being done up and perhaps some small token monument relating strongly to the features of the borough.

Good on 'yer P.B. :notworthy


After this press release, can you still hope to make major structural changes to the coppice Gayle? and perhaps Peter Beard could design a nice picnic table for us?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Why do we have to start things then hope for extra money? if you build a house would you run to the bank and say or we now need money for the roof, any bank would have asked that question at the time of application.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I realise that there are a number of people who don't want this sculpture. I'd be foolish to deny that but from all the correspondence and emails that I've received, the objectors are outnumbered by about 3 to 1. That means around 75% are in favour of the scheme.

When we held a public meeting a few weeks ago, I received 22 comments forms from members of the public returned from people who wanted the scheme (we did not accept any from any officers from the council as we already know their views) and only 3 from people who objected (and two of those kept their options open a bit). There have been four meetings and although the turnout for each of them hasn't been overly high - added together the numbers are significant.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

How many have been cancelled for football games?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I think Britcliffe's objections have more to do with pandering to public opinion than any real concern for the fate of the Coppice. Though given that, as Gayle has said, the steering group is composed partly of members of HBC, it does seem odd that he should be so strident in his opposition to the proposal.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

In hindsight it is always easy to suggest a better way of doing things with regards to public consultation. Mid Pennine Arts acted in good faith by consulting with the council and council staff at the time of selecting the site.

The three designers who came up with designs in January were invited by the steering group.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

It would perhaps have been quicker but in some respects it's probably better if a record is made so that other people can read it at a later date. Also, it might have been a bit confusing for me to have had questions fired at me from all angles. At least this way I can plough through them and ensure I give a full answer to each one. By the way, everyone, I'm on page 3 now.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

If you are using "Materials on site already" to build this earth work, then arn`t you decimating an awful lot of the top of the Coppice which is extremly enviromentally unfriendly. And where does the money come from to reseed the area from which the materials are taken?

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Yes, there is still an opt out clause. It has to be approved by Cabinet first (I think Cllr Britcliffe has made his views on that very clear) and if it gets that far it would need to be approved by planning permission.

Obviously, right here right now we're not likely to walk away but that is a possibility down the line. We're still getting 75% positive feed back from the public about the project and indeed, Cllr Britcliffe in this week's Observer stated that 'it would be wrong to dismiss the scheme out of hand at this stage because of all the benefits it could bring'.

I hope that it doesn't come to the point when we walk away from Hyndburn. I personally think that would be very sad for the town. Accrington is geographically bang smack in the centre of all the other five Panopticons. The other five would receive all the benefits and then Accrington would be like a big hole in the centre.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

No one is being ignored at all. That's partly why I'm here. We need views and opinions to ensure we get the right design for the town. But there has to come a point when it comes down to a majority vote.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

As I've said, the wider scheme could and should involve fencing the site off so that bikers can't get up there. I can't promise that at this point but again, at the risk of repeating myself, that is what has happened at Rossendale.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

It would be interesting indeed to see what those numbers actually were.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

i would think something appropriate to remember the accrington pals would go down much better with the locals.(cant forsee many people objecting to that)but who knows.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Come on folks,give her time to answer your other questions...let her catch up!!:(

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

I agree, perhaps if we'd suggested putting a twenty foot high soldier on top of the Coppice it would not have received so much antagonism as modern art is doing. But, and again, this is my personal opinion, I don't think we should hang the whole future of our town on 80 year old history (Tiffany glass, Accrington Stanley's glory days and Accrington Pals). We have memorials for the Pals in town and I agree they are a huge part of our history and should never be forgotten but we have to look to the future.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

Yes, we most certainly have to get something that moves us forward. One problem that I've noticed though is that the grandeur of the scheme is being diluted somewhat by the process. My personal favourite was the Hollywood sign (actually was far too expensive to build), I liked the Halo and I'm thrilled it's being built in Rossendale, it will be stunning. It's now like designing by committee trying to accommodate everyone and I'm afraid that if we go too far it will dilute the idea so much that it won't have the necessary impact.

As it stands at the moment the current design is going to be the largest earth work in the country so should attract attention because of that.

Re: On Behalf of Gayle Night
 

This latest design is ALSO to serve as a memorial to the Accrington Pals according to Peter Beard!

"The ripple reminds us of the way in which small events can have a big effect. It is also intended as a reminder for ourselves and for our children that our actions can have a resonance and effect on a scale way beyond that of our immediate home."

"The coppice carries strong memories of the 11th Battalion, the Accrington Pals, so many of whose members died at the Somme in 1915."

"High Form is also a homage to the Pals. A reference to the 11th Battalion can be read in the 11 circular folds of the form - a total of 5 ridges and 6 furrows"

If I were not so cynical, I would have believed that P. Beard come up with this AFTER the design!