The Last Straw - Page 11

WillowTheWhisp · 20-10-2006, 09:04

How can you check any visual ID in any situation when the person is wearing a veil? I noticed on the bank door as I went in yesterday that there's a picture of a motorbike helmet and underneath it says "Friend or foe? We don't know. Please remove your helmet before entering." Yet surely the same applies in the case of a full face veil.

I was talking to a woman in the bus stop yesterday, as you do, and a black shape floated past us. There wasn't even an eye slit, this outfit totally covered the person from head to toe. It must have been possible for her to see out but impossible for anyone else to even see her eyes. Until recently we never saw anyone dressed like this in Accy.

The woman I was speaking to said "Oh, would you look at the state of that one!" Was she being racist? Well I don't know but maybe it will affect your opinion if I add that she herself has brown skin and was wearing a shalwar kameez with the scarf resting on the back of her head and loosely draped around her shoulders.

Gayle · 20-10-2006, 21:29

I was asked to take part in a radio documentary on this subject yesterday. It was recorded so I don't know when it's being aired.

The main question was about parallel lives. I think someone in the media used that phrase lately. I actually argued that everyone leads a parallel life with their neighbour, whatever the cultural background of that neighbour.

garinda · 30-10-2006, 08:01

Slightly on a tangent, but there is a programme on Channel 4 tonight about Muslim women who are fighting for equality, which would allow them full access to Britain's mosques.

Dispatches from channel4.com

jambutty · 30-10-2006, 08:55

I saw that programme garinda and I support the Muslim women in their quest. Any organisation be it religious or secular that alienates sections of their followers by sex, colour, age or any other way either positively or negatively doesn’t carry any credence with me.

Now if only Muslims would support our way in that we non Muslims recognise each other by facial recognition and remove the veil in a one to one meeting instead of using the issue to confront.

garinda · 30-10-2006, 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

I saw that programme garinda and I support the Muslim women in their quest. Any organisation be it religious or secular that alienates sections of their followers by sex, colour, age or any other way either positively or negatively doesn’t carry any credence with me.

Now if only Muslims would support our way in that we non Muslims recognise each other by facial recognition and remove the veil in a one to one meeting instead of using the issue to confront.

Have you seen it already?

It's not broadcast until tonight.

If you have I might very well be getting the same digital tv as you.

jambutty · 30-10-2006, 12:21

Sorry garinda, I haven’t actually seen that Dispatches programme. What I saw was news items about it and had it in my mind to watch this evening and it all got mixed up. I would like to plead insanity if I may.

However it doesn’t change my opinion.

What’s the betting that no Muslim will agree to my offer.

jambutty · 31-10-2006, 11:15

Well that Dispatches programme did reveal one very interesting fact. It would appear that each mosque committee led by a male Imam can put whatever interpretation it likes on the Koran. Thus some mosques allow women in to pray, albeit in their own area, and some do not. It’s is all down to the Imam and the strictly male committee. Apparently the Koran does not bar women from praying alongside the men in a mosque but treats all followers of Islam as equal.

One other point came through quite clearly is that some of the male members of a mosque got quite vociferous with the film crew and one even resorted to foul language, telling the camera crew to f*** o** whilst another issued threats against them. Not exactly a good advert for Islam. Then during meetings with the women the men made their point in a bullying and aggressive manner.

In my view the sooner that Muslim women get an equal voice on a mosque committee the better. Should that happen, and it is going to be a long hard fight, then the chances of Muslims integrating with the rest of us will be drastically improved. In fact I am convinced that it would happen quicker than many people could hope for. We non Muslims, men and women, should support their cause wholeheartedly.

The key to integration whilst retaining their own culture and none confrontational religion, are the Muslim women.

Women the world over have an affinity with each other, regardless of culture, colour or creed, that is not matched by their male counterpart and it is this affinity that will bring about integration if they are allowed a voice in Islam.

However, I would still ask a veiled Muslim women to remove her veil when in a one to one situation with me. She can see and read my face and judge from it whether I am sincere and truthful in my comments and it is only fair that I am able to do the same.

Tealeaf · 31-10-2006, 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

However, I would still ask a veiled Muslim women to remove her veil when in a one to one situation with me. She can see and read my face and judge from it whether I am sincere and truthful in my comments and it is only fair that I am able to do the same.

Interesting. I wonder in what circumstances would a single Christian male be in a one-to-one situation with a fully-veiled Islamic lady, no other people being present?

jambutty · 31-10-2006, 13:31

What about an interview with an official of the local authority, or the dole office, or a prospective employer, or police for starters Tealeaf? Except that officialdom is so scared of upsetting a Muslim that they have bent over backwards to accommodate their views. The Muslim males’ reaction to any sort of criticism is to threaten violence towards the critic. In other words they want to bully us into accepting their view. You can bet your sweet life if a non Muslim attended such an interview wearing a balaclava or a scarf covering the lower face, security would be called PDQ if they refused to remove the face covering.

Can you imagine a policeman taking a witness statement from a veiled Muslim woman?

The problem is that with a male dominated religion like Islam they want it all their own way. In spite of the claims of some Muslim women to the contrary the female is subjugated by the male. And like any victim some will actually end up agreeing with the oppressor. This oppression has been going on for so long that some Muslim women claim that it is their wish to wear the veil, when in fact it is a dictat from the Muslim males. They do so because they know that to rebel will invite violence against them so they agree to appease their aleged masters. There are Muslim women’s refuges you know!

The Muslim male doesn’t like the ‘Western’ way because it would strip his power over women.

Tealeaf · 31-10-2006, 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

What about an interview with an official of the local authority, or the dole office, or a prospective employer, or police for starters Tealeaf?

Yeah...what about such situations? Is it with or without the veil, and with no-one or someone else (female) present? I dunno...

kash · 31-10-2006, 14:50

Quote:

This oppression has been going on for so long that some Muslim women claim that it is their wish to wear the veil, when in fact it is a dictat from the Muslim males.

Have you actually spoken to these women, who chose to wear the veil. the ones i've spoken to are happy and even say that their families don't force them to wear it.

garinda · 31-10-2006, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by kash

Have you actually spoken to these women, who chose to wear the veil. the ones i've spoken to are happy and even say that their families don't force them to wear it.

Women in the Despatches programme last night spoke about how they chose, or not, to wear the veil. Not one of them mentioned male oppression.

What was more shocking was how militant the featured mosque in Blackburn was, compared with those shown in East London and Essex.

A very interesting programme, and for once I'm in agreement with Jambutty. It's Muslim women that could hold the answer for more integration, and understanding from all sections of the community.

katex · 31-10-2006, 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by kash

Have you actually spoken to these women, who chose to wear the veil. the ones i've spoken to are happy and even say that their families don't force them to wear it.

Well, to me, kash ... here in the U.K. 'tis just a matter of good manners .. way we have been brought up .. like taking off your bike helmet.

WillowTheWhisp · 31-10-2006, 20:54

It's probably because in our experience here in the UK anyone hiding their face has usually been the "bad guy".

jambutty · 01-11-2006, 09:15

Of course the Muslim women that you have spoken to will not denounce the wearing of the veil kash – not to a Muslim male. There is a well documented and established syndrome where the ‘victim’ will agree with and even defend the ‘oppressor’. Battered wives, husbands and even children do just that and are in denial when challenged. Long term abductees, male or female have often displayed an affinity for the abductor and pleaded on his/her behalf when released. In short they have been bullied into total submission.

No I have not spoken to a Muslim woman wearing the veil kash. If I did I would need to see her face when she answers my question to try and establish how much truth is behind her claim that it is her free choice to cover her face in public.

What a Muslim woman wears in public is up to her. But as katex has stated, it is a matter of plain good manners to show your face to people when you speak to them and not hide behind some sort of mask. In this day and age it is also a question of security. I’m not saying that all Muslims are terrorists, because they are not. Far from it! What I am saying is that today most, but not all, terrorists are Muslims.

It’s not just in the UK WillowTheWhisp. Criminals the world over have covered their faces when executing their crimes. It’s a ploy to prevent recognition in the belief that they will get away with their crime.