who represents Hyndburn 9Accrington and district) in Europe

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by Greg Pope

There has been a lot of rubbish written about the Treaty

...or perhaps this is the "rubbish" you're referring to, "Looking at the content, the result is that the institutional proposals of the constitutional treaty...are found complete in the Lisbon Treaty, only in a different order and inserted in former treaties...Above all, it is to avoid having referendums, thanks to the fact that the articles are spread out and the constitutional vocabulary has been removed." quoted from former French President, Valery Giscard d'Estang, ardent EU supporter and architect of the original European Constitution.

[Greg Pope]

That's precisely what I mean. The Foreign Affairs Committee did not conclude that the Treaty ceded new powers to Brussels (unless by that you mean the sensible extension of majority voting - we couldn't really have all 27 countries having a veto on everything) and indeed it concluded that the most important area, Foreign & Security Policy, will remain a matter for individual countries rather than for the EU. One of the reasons that I'm confident about what the Foreign Affairs Committee said is because I am a member of it. Wynonie, if you send me a PM with your address I'll happily send you a copy of the report.

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by Greg Pope

(unless by that you mean the sensible extension of majority voting - we couldn't really have all 27 countries having a veto on everything) and indeed it concluded that the most important area, Foreign & Security Policy, will remain a matter for individual countries rather than for the EU.

Hardly seems that way to me, when you read quotes from the report like this, "We conclude that there is no material difference between the provisions on foreign affairs in the Constitutional Treaty which the Government made subject to approval in a referendum and those in the Lisbon Treaty on which a referendum is being denied."

As for the extension of majority voting, it may seem "sensible" to a federalist, but to someone like me who believes in the independence of the UK, it appears less so. It basically means that there are now more areas where laws which the people of this country do not want, can be imposed upon them simply because other countries do want them. I'm given to understand that majority voting replaces unanimity in 62 new areas under the Reform Treaty. Under the abandoned Constitution, it was 61.

It seems more and more apparent that the Lisbon Treaty is a European Constitution by any other name. We were promised a referendum on the former...why can't we have one on the latter?

[Greg Pope]

This is exactly why I argued against putting the line in about the foreign policy aspects of the Treaty being the same as the Constitution, as people would read it out of context (as all the newspapers have) and conclude that the Treaty and the Constitution are the same, which they are not. Incidentally, the FAC report runs to two volumes and over 250 pages, is largely supportive of the Treaty and is opposed to a referendum - something which was specifically rejected by the Committee several times.

I am not, by the way, a 'federalist' but it is just common sense to have majority voting in a 27 member state organisation. By all means argue the case for leaving the EU if that is what you want, but it makes no sense at all to want to remain in the EU and at the same time wreck it by giving Lithuania or Cyprus or Malta a veto over everything!

[Wynonie Harris]

I'm not really bothered about Lithuania or Cyprus or Malta...I'm quite content to let them run their countries the way they want to. I'm far more concerned about the UK and what happens when there's a majority vote on something which is against the wishes of the British people. As for whether the Lisbon Treaty is the same as the European Constitution, I reckon that wiley old fox, Valery Giscard d'Estang had it about right...same old thing in a different order!

[bullseyebarb]

Way to go, Wynonie!

[steeljack]

Seems since there is now majority voting in Brussels and Strasbourg (see Greg Pope's comments above) the EU is now in fact the United States of Europe , so when are you guys going to start sending only ONE team to the Olympics and ONE team to the World Cup not 27 ? ....logic says that if you Europeans can have 27 teams in the Olympics and more in the World Cup, the USA should be allowed 50, Canada 14, and Australia 6 .
just curious, look forward to comments

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by steeljack

Seems since there is now majority voting in Brussels and Strasbourg (see Greg Pope's comments above) the EU is now in fact the United States of Europe , so when are you guys going to start sending only ONE team to the Olympics and ONE team to the World Cup not 27 ? ....logic says that if you Europeans can have 27 teams in the Olympics and more in the World Cup, the USA should be allowed 50, Canada 14, and Australia 6 .
just curious, look forward to comments

Think you're quite right and as the European Superstate takes hold, I reckon it may well happen. What puzzles me is that most people in the UK seem curiously indifferent to the fact that they are slowly but surely losing their independence, effectively leaving the way open for Greg and his fellow-Europhiles to do their worst!

[Bagpuss]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

What puzzles me is that most people in the UK seem curiously indifferent to the fact that they are slowly but surely losing their independence, effectively leaving the way open for Greg and his fellow-Europhiles to do their worst!

Weel your side of the discussion has not been lost on me.

[cmonstanley]

Originally Posted by blazey

I find it quite exciting that greg pope posts on accyweb, does peter britcliffe post aswell?

a peter britcliffe groupie what ever next

[Bagpuss]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

effectively leaving the way open for Greg and his fellow-Europhiles to do their worst!

I think Mr Popes stance on this issue could see him losing his seat at the next election.

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by Bagpuss

I think Mr Popes stance on this issue could see him losing his seat at the next election.

Well, if Acrylic Bob decided to stand against him, I reckon ole Greg wouldn't have a cat in hell's chance!