Tony Blair..good bloke

[chav1]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

That's right, Mancie, let's ignore Blair's many shortcomings and talk about what happened 20 years ago. Nowt like living in the past, is there?

well we look to world war 2 when we need reminding of mistakes so why not look back a bit sooner to remind us of what happens when coservitaves are in power

[Wynonie Harris]

Right, so because of what the Tories did 20 years ago, we should now regard Tony Blair as "a good bloke". Well, he's not my idea of a "good bloke"!

[chav1]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Right, so because of what the Tories did 20 years ago, we should now regard Tony Blair as "a good bloke". Well, he's not my idea of a "good bloke"!

i think the guys an idiot but why vote somone out whos going to be replaced soon , no point voting cameron in he looks evil to start with and on top of that hes a tory so basicly regarless of what policies he has or what comes out his mouth there isnt realy much else needs saying about him

personaly i would shoot the bloody lot of them and start afresh

[mani]

i think tony's had its moments of brilliantness - and his moments of weaknesses

the fact he went into kosovo and was so determined to - and the first global leader to made him look like a a global player and was widely respected for this. after gettin bitten by this bug he made the grave errors of iraq when there were clearly more area's of the world that needed atention and htey turned away

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by grannyclaret

well i liked him... better than maggie thatcher

Granny...is that in the past tense? You liked him, but now you don't...or do you mean that you liked him better than Maggie Thatcher?

I don't trust the man...he is like a snake oil salesman...big on talk but little on effective action.....all smoke and mirrors. But then aren't all the politicians the same? In it for what they can get and screwing us for every penny they can? To me they all seem to be a load of kitehawks!

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I don't trust the man...he is like a snake oil salesman...big on talk but little on effective action.....all smoke and mirrors. But then aren't all the politicians the same? In it for what they can get and screwing us for every penny they can? To me they all seem to be a load of kitehawks!

That just about sums up my feelings perfectly. But, this thread is about whether or not Blair is "a good bloke" - not Cameron, or Major, or Thatcher. Mancie thinks he is - I reckon he isn't; in fact I think, to use Margaret's memorable phrase, he's "a snake oil salesman."!

[garinda]

I like him for righting what in my opinion were very unjust laws.

In the end all power corrupts, he's served his purpose, and it's time for a change.

[andrewb]

I won't argue that hes done a lot for the country, but he has a unique talent for talking things up when they're really not.

I absolutely detest when he stands in Prime Ministers Questions defending the NHS etc with the same facts and figures every week, completely ignoring the fact that the NHS was better 10years ago according to many people who actually work in it.

If he could actually say "Look, we got some things wrong, the NHS is in a state" and let the people who know (doctors and nurses) have more input, then i'd have a lot more respect for him.

As for Thatcher, the normal doom and gloom speakers will bring up the 3million unemployment and such, but it had to happen at some point when things could be manufactured/extracted cheaper in other countries. I think you should really be praising her for what she did about the trade unions, she had a lot of balls to do it, and people who were FORCED to strike by the unions can now get down to work.

[West Ender]

Originally Posted by entwisi

isn't there more Civil servants now than there has ever been though west ender? Perhaps its just coming down to a sensible level. with regard to underpaid, there was an article recently that looked at teh whole package including pensions etc and found that public sector was way ahead of those whe worked in teh private sector.

No, there are far fewer than 30 years ago, doing twice as much work (or trying to).

Regarding pay, most people equate Civil Servants with the "higher" Civil Service and, I quite agree, many of them are very well paid. I'm referring to the "groundforce", the workers who get the real jobs done - the people whose jobs are on the line. The absolutely top pay for them is just over £18K, despite the amount of knowledge and skill they need to do the job well and the degree of responsibilty they require - probably equal responsibilty to an office manager in Industry. The final salary pension, which is being phased out, works out that such a person could retire with a pension of £9K a year - if they have put in 40 years service. Twenty years would give them £4500 a year. It's not a free pension either, we have to pay for it just like anyone else. If there are any other "perks" perhaps you could tell me what they are - because I don't know about them.

[CusCus]

Originally Posted by West Ender

No, there are far fewer than 30 years ago, doing twice as much work (or trying to).
If there are any other "perks" perhaps you could tell me what they are - because I don't know about them.

Better pay than an equivalent paper pushing job in a company office
Better holiday allowance than a paper pushing job in a company office
More "time off sick" on mondays and fridays than paper pushing job in a company office
Better job security than a paper pushing job in a company office
Better pension than a paper pushing job in a company office

Now you know!

Funny, they (low paid civil servants) moan so much but are very, very, very reluctant to resign and join the real world with a rest of us.

Secretly they know they are on a good number.

[West Ender]

Originally Posted by CusCus

Better pay than an equivalent paper pushing job in a company office
1)Better holiday allowance than a paper pushing job in a company office
2)More "time off sick" on mondays and fridays than paper pushing job in a company office
3)Better job security than a paper pushing job in a company office
4)Better pension than a paper pushing job in a company office

Now you know!

Funny, they (low paid civil servants) moan so much but are very, very, very reluctant to resign and join the real world with a rest of us.

Secretly they know they are on a good number.

Oh, I wish that were true. I agree it was, to a degree, when I first "joined up" in 1960 (had you been born then?), which is why I worked hard to get qualifications so that I could. It probably still is for some of the bowler-hatted brigade in London, but for the average foot-soldier the days of the "good number" are long gone.


1) Not so - the "paper pusher" grade starts on £9K a year and rises to £15K.
2) Absolute rubbish - where do you get that stupid idea from? Sick Leave is a complete no-no - to the point where people are going to work when they're ill for fear of losing their jobs.
3) Very little job security these days. Read my keyboard - 25000 to lose their jobs within 5 years, on top of the ones who have already been pushed.
4) Which part of my explanation of the pension system went over your head?

It's all academic, in relation to the topic of this thread. My first point was referring to the "acheivements" of Mr. Blair and, I'll repeat, the public will suffer in the long run from the hatcheting of C S jobs.

[CusCus]

Originally Posted by West Ender

Oh, I wish that were true. I agree it was, to a degree, when I first "joined up" in 1960 (had you been born then?), which is why I worked hard to get qualifications so that I could. It probably still is for some of the bowler-hatted brigade in London, but for the average foot-soldier the days of the "good number" are long gone.


1) Not so - the "paper pusher" grade starts on £9K a year and rises to £15K.
2) Absolute rubbish - where do you get that stupid idea from? Sick Leave is a complete no-no - to the point where people are going to work when they're ill for fear of losing their jobs.
3) Very little job security these days. Read my keyboard - 25000 to lose their jobs within 5 years, on top of the ones who have already been pushed.
4) Which part of my explanation of the pension system went over your head?
It's all academic, in relation to the topic of this thread. My first point was referring to the "acheivements" of Mr. Blair and, I'll repeat, the public will suffer in the long run from the hatcheting of C S jobs.

1) still better than the average private sector wage, and that's looking at mean and median averages in order to not massage the figures by a few mega-high earners (see "public sector rich-list")
2) statistics prove it. Public sector workers take a lot more "sick" time off than private sector workers
3) job security is still better in the state than private sector
4) I read all of it thanks. Pensions are still better in the state than private sector. Let me assure you nothing went over my head and there's no need to insinuate stupidity if you want a sensible debate and I'm more than capable of getting out my calculator and going through a cost-benefit pensions payment scenario using as many discounted future cash flow models as you want.(but hey, this is the internet........ )

Hope the above clarifies. - think the point I'm making is you might think it's crap in the state sector and maybe it is, but the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side.

If the deal is so bad in the state sector, try getting a better deal in the private sector.
Or stop whinging!
(no offence intended!)


At least in the private sector you don't have to put up with the unions stirring it up.

Finally given the evidence to back up my earlier claims you can withdraw the "rubbish / stupid" inferences. Or back up your arguments......!

Sources:
1) BBC. / Chartered institure of personnel development / The Guardian / Office of NAtional Statistics.
For example:
Office for National Statistics calculated that the average public sector worker earns 20 per cent more than his or her private sector counterpart. The ONS’s Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings shows that public sector workers are not underpaid and exploited. Median hourly pay, excluding overtime, for a public sector worker is £10.50, compared to only £8.71 in the private sector.

2) Office of National Statistics / The Guardian / The Taxpayers Alliance / Centre for Policy studies
Average sick leave per annum: 10 days vs. 7 days

3) The Guardian / Centre for Policy Studies / Manchester University

4) none needed


better get back to the j-o-b..........

ps when I was born is irrelevant, as is what is was like whne you joined up in the 60's.
We dont compete with the past

[West Ender]

No, I don't take offense, Cus-cus. I'm just stating facts as I know them to be - not what I read in the Press.

I have worked in the private sector too, in between my 2 spells in public service, so I'm not quite as insular as you assume I am and I can call on experience in both sectors. Oh and, no, I won't "whinge" my way into the private sector at this stage. I'll be retiring in 10 months, when I will be 65, on that fantastic pension.

I'm not going to keep on arguing because, apart from appreciating you will never be convinced I know more than you do about my own profession, I don't want to bore other Accyweb members to death. I am interested, however, to know what you do for a living and whether Mr. Blair been good or bad for your employment and prospects.

[grannyclaret]

[quote=Margaret Pilkington;394130]Granny...is that in the past tense? You liked him, but now you don't...or do you mean that you liked him better than Maggie Thatcher?

I quote]
I mean he is ready for going ,i personaly liked the man, much better than "maggie thatcher the goddess "and no matter what he did ,he was in catch 22, dammed if he did and dammed if he diddent,, Lets see what the next victim does.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Thanks for clarifying that point GrannyC...I thought that was what you meant.
I still don't like or trust the bloke...but then I don't trust any of the others either.