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I don't see how these can be called "honor" killings; it is certainly a distortion of "honor" to link it to macho male insecurity. It is time to let immigrants know that altho they are welcome, there are certain aspects of thier culture which are not. There are enough problems with insecure boyfriends and husbands without adding more that are culturally sanctioned, or at least tolerated.
 
Eric said:
I don't see how these can be called "honor" killings; it is certainly a distortion of "honor" to link it to macho male insecurity. It is time to let immigrants know that altho they are welcome, there are certain aspects of thier culture which are not. There are enough problems with insecure boyfriends and husbands without adding more that are culturally sanctioned, or at least tolerated.
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Why would you refer to immigrants in particular? Born and bred british citizens can do exactly the same thing, and they do, it happens with white british families as well, but the reason they aren't called honor killings is because they typically lack the religious factor, yet often its not the religious factor at all makes these men do these things, they are just cowards.

Adams poor excuse for a father might have tried to bully his family with his religious believes but underneath he was the shame on the family, drinking alcohol and claiming to be such a righteous muslim. He didn't deserve his loving family, and he killed them because he was a coward, nothing to do with honor.
 
And how many of the cases so far have not been immigrants? I have been watching it and as you say Adam's "father" was a coward who murdered six people or as good as!!!
 
I'm struggling to think why honour killings might be called such due to some typically religious factor.

Honourable man = religious man ?
Religious man = honourable man?

Plain murder in my book.
 
BERNADETTE said:
And how many of the cases so far have not been immigrants? I have been watching it and as you say Adam's "father" was a coward who murdered six people or as good as!!!
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you watched a two part documentary, it just so happens that the cases shown just happened to be foreign people. Just as many white men murder their wives and children for many reasons, the only reason its not labelled an honor killing as we stereotype honor killing as a foreign activity, just as typically people link terrorism with muslim al qaeda followers, when there are many white terrorists in the country.

My friends family weren't killed for honour, so it shouldn't be classed as a statistic for honor killings amongst foreigners in the country.
Honour killings are against people who have brought shame to the family, such as commiting adultery or some other form of immoral behaviour, and all riazs mum tried to do was bring 'immigrants' and everyone else together in the community.

If they are to be labelled as killed by their immigrant husband/dad, then you're forcing her to have died for a lost cause, and that deeply saddens me. There is no difference between an immigrant and a british citizen, theyre all human beings, and not all honor killings should be assumed to be carried out by foreigners just because the phrase isnt used when white men kill their families. I'm pretty sure a man murdered his family with an axe not so long ago but it wasn't deemed an honour killing, yet its the same situation.

I think riaz would've been really upset that people thought his mother died because she had done something dishonourable to shame her family. And I refuse to disrespect his memory by referring to it in such a thoughtless way.
 
Blazey I think you have mistaken what is being said.

The pharse "Honour" killings is what is being talked about and that should that title be allowed to be claimed when in fact it is just plain and simple cold blooded murder.

I think this thread is trying to get a disscussion going on that but because one of the events was very close to home it has become "localised" and the main point of discussion has been pushed to one side.

However I'm prepeared to be corrected :)
 
Hold on a minute I am not being thoughtless here, you asked the question why was it asumed these MEN were immigrants? In the two part documentary I watched they were foreign. I am not saying it does not happen with white, yellow or strawberry pink people. What I will say is it is very rare when you hear of cases of MURDER on this scale. It happened a few weeks prior to this to another immigrant family not to far away. DO NOT EVER TRY TO SAY THAT I EVEN CONTEMPLATED THAT WHAT HAPPENED WAS DUE TO THAT LOVELY LADY BEING DISHONOURABLE. You are well out of order!!!
 
This so called 'honour killing the was the work of a coward, who had lost control of his family. If he had murdered his wife only the French have a name for it (garinda) your que, maybe honour comes into it but not in my book.To murder his cuildren was unbelievably burtal, and without excuse.It mighnt be acceptable in bangladesh, Pity he did not stop there. Also the Banngladeshi authorities are not very co-operative in these situations. No bevy of virgins await this ratbag.
 
Ianto.W. said:
This so called 'honour killing the was the work of a coward, who had lost control of his family. If he had murdered his wife only the French have a name for it (garinda) your que, maybe honour comes into it but not in my book.To murder his cuildren was unbelievably burtal, and without excuse.It mighnt be acceptable in bangladesh, Pity he did not stop there. Also the Banngladeshi authorities are not very co-operative in these situations. No bevy of virgins await this ratbag.
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From what I understand ... and this is only from reading what I was pointed to on the web ... the murder of his wife was not even a crime of passion. It's this honour thing which bothers me. And what bothers me is that it seems latent in all cultures ... this tendency of men to treat women as possesions. And possesions which they seem to believe they have a right to destroy. And by extension, taking it to the extreme, some men may consider that their children are also possessions which may have been contaminated or damaged in some way by their partners' infidelity, real or perceived. Maybe it is not honor at all, just basic, irrational jealousy. Or maybe some guys are born as a complete waste of skin.
 
personally i thought that cop guy got the term right. it wasnt an honour killing but a control killing. the guy was losing control of the grip he had on his family. his wife wanted a career his daughters wudnt go abroad to get married and it must've got to the point where he felt no one was respecting him as the man of the house thing.

the best thing on that show was barry khanan blasting the local leaders for their suggestions - rightly so. there's too many dead fodder in the asian community who due to their age think doin things their way is the best and it isnt. those local leaders have held back the muslim community for so long.

after 7/7 they shud've gone out all guns blazing against the terrorists and instead they stayed quiet sat in their homes with thier hands up soem dark hole. they cud've and shud've made a stand - the muslim community wud've been respected alot more - pretty soon after this riaz's incident it became clear that the dad had done this. it wasnt just gossip - it was a fact. there was a few of those local leaders who was there as the house burnt - they knew no one cud've got in or out. instead they were too busy gettin their pics taken.

not once have i read anywhere that the local leaders condemend this. these leaders are quick to point the fingers at other people when it suits them and happily smile when it doesnt.

the amount of times i heard these guys trying to justify something like this was shocking. oh she must've been having an affair with so and so. yeah i heard that too so it must be true. yeah she was with another bloke a few hrs before she died etc and not once did any of them say yeah even if she was this shudnt have happened.

and there's one more thing i'd add on here - they're called honour killings simply cause they're asian. how many times have u read about a white bloke killing his wife/gf cause she'd cheated on him or left him isnt this what happened wiht the cheadle case?

and dont look too far in the past - the robert lund case - honour killing? or just plain murder.

one other thing that suprirsed me was that there's such a asian community living here and there's so many examples of people running these countries after commiting a crime - wouldnt it make sense for the govt to persue an extradition treaty with such places? like those two bengali lads who ran off after the death of the 6 yr old.
 
Eric, Mani I agree with both of you i'm having, trouble at present typing but you have filled in the blanks for me mani, the asian community will only function correctly when the 'old guard' are gone and not there to indoctrinate the younger ones.eric controland male domination is what this is about. The Asian 'old guard' in the community are not without blame here.
 
ianto - exactly

i mean i know i do have some of those values that my dad had but its like mine was an arranged marriage - i'd seen her but never met her. but i know by the time my daughters come around to that age of marriage it'll be so much more easier for them to have the marriage of thier choice as the old guard will have gone and people's attitudes will be very different. yeah there still will be some of the old vibes and feelings. you cant make it go away in 5-10 yrs

i remember the time when some asian girl did a runner with her bf - it was the first time it'd happened in the local few streets so everyone knew about it. her parents didnt come out unless they really had to. fathers would go into major depression for this kinda stuff.

the one thing that can really disturb the balance is like in the riaz case - when the husband is from "back home". a freshie. cause each time they're bringing back that old mentality. some change to update their thoughts to the western world but some dont. loads of us mates used to go to one mates house adn their family was like ours no one wud bat an eyelid or question why we were there. we just were. then one of his sisters got married to someone from pakistan and when he came over and saw all this he was shocked by having unrelated males mingling in the household. so he asked his brother in law not to bring his mates around as it wasnt right. however eventually he began to come around the thinking and saw this is what happens we chill out we mingle and its like a big family so he came to us one day when we were together and apologised and said he'd been seeing things differently. so we moved back to vegetating in his house. :) attitudes can change but its gonna b a long time till they're the norm.
 
Great posting mani, we need educating as well, to be able to try to understand the differences in communities. Especially the 'old guard' like myself:D:D
 
I don't think this is too much of a wander: what is the position of the British govt. on Sharia? In Ontario, our premier, Dalton McGuinty said in 2005, "There will be no Sharia law in Ontario. There will be no religious arbitration in Ontario. There will be one law for all Ontarians." And a further related question: is there a link between Sharia and honor killings?
 
Eric said:
I don't think this is too much of a wander: what is the position of the British govt. on Sharia? In Ontario, our premier, Dalton McGuinty said in 2005, "There will be no Sharia law in Ontario. There will be no religious arbitration in Ontario. There will be one law for all Ontarians." And a further related question: is there a link between Sharia and honor killings?
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Although not officially sanctioned, it's already here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/29/nsharia29.xml
 
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