Council again..

How much is the minimum wage? In Ontario, it's around $10.00 an hour. And if it is your only income, you probably won't make enough to pay income tax; so, it's as near as damnit tax free. From what I gather from some of the posts on the price of basic stuff, particularly food, a sawbuck goes a bit further over here than it does there. But in terms of the topic, I would agree that local govt. shouldn't be wasting time on stuff like the minimum wage ... but, I don't agree with party politics of any kind at the municipal level.
 
andrewb said:
After all what would be the point in writing to David Cameron, only to tell him they still agreed with the policy.
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The point would have stopped the local Labour party being able to say they were against minimum wage. Lets see if they now lie and still say the Hyndburn Tories are against it in there propaganda leaflets
 
andrewb said:
As you well know it's a private members bill, not that of the Conservative party. It's not up to David Cameron whether to 'allow' it. You know that the national Conservatives under David Cameron support the minimum wage, and you know that the local Conservatives in Hyndburn do too. The motion was nothing more than posturing as Mr Britcliffe put it.

It's quite rich that in today's climate the Labour party would accuse anybody of not understanding public opinion!
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Andrew I am quite aware it is a private members bill, but I fail to see why David Cameron has not condemned it, if he does in fact support the minimum wage.

I can assure you that the motion was not posturing and as you were not responsible for writing the motion, you can only hazard your wild (and inaccurate) guesses as to the motives of the Labour Group. The members of the Labour Group feel very passionate about the minimum wage.

Peter Britcliffe has not always supported the minimum wage - I asked a question at a public meeting (in Accrington Town Hall) of all the candidates (seeking election to Parliament for Hyndburn) in the 1997 general. I asked if the candidates supported the introduction of a minimum wage and whether they were prepared to work for £2.50 an hour (which was the wage quoted for a job that had appeared in the Observer the previous weekend). All the candidates - with the exception of Peter Britcliffe- supported the intoductionof a national minimum wage.

Also, as you were at last night's meeting maybe you would like to tell everyone, how Peter Britcliffe changed the Constitution of Hyndburn Borough Council to appoint a Chairperson to chair meetings of Full Council, instead of the Mayor. This demeans the role of the Mayor and reduces them to a mere figurehead. Maybe you agree, with members of Hyndburn Borough Council only being informed of important changes to the constitution being presented to them as they enter the Council chamber for the meeting. A similar thing also occured at the last Council meeting, when the spending for the Civic Theatre was brought to the meeting as a late item. Cllr Dave Parkin was quite correct last night when he said that we were being subjected to the 'Britcliffe Bulldozer'.
 
claytonender said:
Andrew I am quite aware it is a private members bill, but I fail to see why David Cameron has not condemned it, if he does in fact support the minimum wage.


Also, as you were at last night's meeting maybe you would like to tell everyone, how Peter Britcliffe changed the Constitution of Hyndburn Borough Council to appoint a Chairperson to chair meetings of Full Council, instead of the Mayor. This demeans the role of the Mayor and reduces them to a mere figurehead. Maybe you agree, with members of Hyndburn Borough Council only being informed of important changes to the constitution being presented to them as they enter the Council chamber for the meeting. A similar thing also occured at the last Council meeting, when the spending for the Civic Theatre was brought to the meeting as a late item. Cllr Dave Parkin was quite correct last night when he said that we were being subjected to the 'Britcliffe Bulldozer'.
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Did you propose a motion to condemn Gordon Brown doubling the tax for those on the minimum wage? Perhaps you wrote one asking for a general election, I certainly hope you signed the petition that was passed around last night. Labour could quite easily have written a motion supporting the minimum wage and you'd have support from across the room, but instead choose to make it party political involving silly letters to just one party leader whom you already know supports the minimum wage!

There is such hypocrisy in local politics, it turns me off never mind those already less involved in politics. Not too long ago the Labour group proposed increasing the council tax on empty properties, at the last moment with no mention of it in the agenda. As it had large financial implications it couldn't just be voted on the fly, so the Conservatives opposed it.

Let's give people the full picture. Last night there was a vote to give the mayor the OPTION whether to chair council meetings. Any mayor who wishes to can still do so. I spoke to some people in the public gallery and they could not understand why Labour were making such a big fuss and demanding a 20 minute adjournment to discuss something that seemed quite simple to them.
 
What a load of complete tosh Andrew, I took an item to full council to remove the unjust exemptions on council tax for empty properties. A report accompanied it which was written and costed by the Finance Director of the council, do you think he produced that in 5 minutes? The idea that it was brought to council at the last minute is Britcliffe spin, it was an ammendment to his motion which was brought, fully costed, with full officer participation.
 
The Labour Group didn't ask for the 20 minute adjournment by the way, Nick Collingridge did, and he's independant, 10 minutes was ample time to read it but it should have been circulated in advance of the meeting.
 
ClarePritchard said:
What a load of complete tosh Andrew, I took an item to full council to remove the unjust exemptions on council tax for empty properties. A report accompanied it which was written and costed by the Finance Director of the council, do you think he produced that in 5 minutes? The idea that it was brought to council at the last minute is Britcliffe spin, it was an ammendment to his motion which was brought, fully costed, with full officer participation.
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Not a load of tosh. I was at the council meeting where this was proposed. I had the agenda and every piece of agenda document. Nowhere to be seen.

My apologies for saying it was the Labour group who proposed 20 minutes, you still voted for it, which seems strange if you thought 10 minutes was enough!
 
Andrew, do you think it is good for local democracy for the opposition councilllors to be given no time to read council papers, which are proposing important changes to the consitution of Hyndburn Council? From your view of the request at last night's meeting, it would appear that you do - so much for freedom of speech and welcome to Peter Britcliffe's totalitarian state.
 
claytonender said:
Andrew, do you think it is good for local democracy for the opposition councilllors to be given no time to read council papers, which are proposing important changes to the consitution of Hyndburn Council? From your view of the request at last night's meeting, it would appear that you do - so much for freedom of speech and welcome to Peter Britcliffe's totalitarian state.
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I do think 10 minutes was enough time for this particular non-controversial issue. The secretary of the Labour group agrees that it was ample time. While the members of the public in the public gallery thought that 10 minutes was excessive.

Claytonender do you think it's good for local democracy for the opposition to propose council papers with huge financial implications, without distributing them first, and then using the vote in leaflets to gain political advantage?

The agenda and minutes are here: Council I point out that the agenda and attached documents have no mention of the huge change in council tax for empty properties, but if you read the minutes the Labour group suddenly propose the amendment in full. I was as surprised as anybody else as to why a huge financial change was not given in advance to be scrutinised.
 
andrewb said:
Not a load of tosh. I was at the council meeting where this was proposed. I had the agenda and every piece of agenda document. Nowhere to be seen.

My apologies for saying it was the Labour group who proposed 20 minutes, you still voted for it, which seems strange if you thought 10 minutes was enough!
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Maybe you should read Clare's post again, she stated that it was an amendement to a motion proposed on the night of the meeting. I circulted all the costings to the councillors present but Peter Britcliffe refused to read the costings. As Clare said, in her post, the proposal had been fully costed out by the Finance Director and I am sure Peter Britcliffe had already been informed of our plans. He could have proposed an adjournment to read our report, but as usual he choose to ridicule his opponents.

The man is a joke, he twists the truth constantly and chooses to ignore the views of the people of Hyndburn, he is demeaning the role of Leader of The Council. Unfortunately the people of Hyndburn have to live with his inflated ego.
 
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claytonender said:
Andrew, do you think it is good for local democracy for the opposition councilllors to be given no time to read council papers, which are proposing important changes to the consitution of Hyndburn Council? From your view of the request at last night's meeting, it would appear that you do - so much for freedom of speech and welcome to Peter Britcliffe's totalitarian state.
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Its not that long ago that a Labour council didn't even bother with debate it was voted through on the nod, Labour have always had the same idea its alright for us to do things but just let you try it and our toys will come out of the pram big style
 
claytonender said:
Maybe you should read Clare's post again, she stated that it was an amendement to a motion proposed on the night of the meeting. I circulted all the costings to the councillors present but Peter Britcliffe refused to read the costings. As Clare said, in her post, the proposal had been fully costed out by the Finance Director and I am sure Peter Britcliffe had already been informed of our plans. He could have proposed an adjournment to read our report, but as usual he choose to ridicule his opponents. The man is a joke, he twists the truth constantly chooses to ignore the views of the people of Hyndburn -he has abolished the Area Councils in Peel and Barnfield, Church and Milnshaw Spring Hill and Central- without any public consultation. Unfortunately the people of Hyndburn have to live with his inflated ego.
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Why did you circulate them on the night and not before so that they could be given serious thought. Did you not think the public should know what is happening in council too? Such hypocrisy. Labour are guilty of the same things you accuse the Conservatives of. People in glass houses..

Can't you just work together instead of constantly trying to trip the Tories up? :mad:
 
andrewb said:
Why did you circulate them on the night and not before so that they could be given serious thought. Did you not think the public should know what is happening in council too? Such hypocrisy. Labour are guilty of the same things you accuse the Conservatives of. People in glass houses..

Can't you just work together instead of constantly trying to trip the Tories up? :mad:
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Because Andrew Labour is always right, they're getting on with the job, when they are talking we're safe, its when they stop talking and start doing is when the problems start, aka Blair and Brown
 
Andrew, I'm not the secretary of the Labour Group, I'm the Deputy Leader. I'm glad you agree that huge financial decisions shouldn't be just put forward at full-council. I trust that you mentioned this to Peter, when, at the last Full-Council we received on our desks as we sat down Peters proposal to spend at total of 400k on the Civic Theatre.
 
ClarePritchard said:
Andrew, I'm not the secretary of the Labour Group, I'm the Deputy Leader. I'm glad you agree that huge financial decisions shouldn't be just put forward at full-council. I trust that you mentioned this to Peter, when, at the last Full-Council we received on our desks as we sat down Peters proposal to spend at total of 400k on the Civic Theatre.
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You're missing the point. If you disagree with the fact that he does it, then don't do it yourself or you lose all credibility.
 
andrewb said:
It's full council tonight. It's at 7:30 normally, if you're interested.

There's a motion on the table by Labour that celebrates 10 years of the minimum wage. It then goes on to say the council should write to David Cameron and express disgust at a 'Conservative proposed' bill which would allow workers to opt out of the minimum wage.

Quite why local politicians wish to waste time on such motions rather than dealing with local issues which they have influence over I don't know. Regardless, is it really necessary to try and make this a party political matter? The bill is not backed by David Cameron, it's not backed by the overwhelming majority of the Conservative parliamentary group, and it's now even been withdrawn.

I expect that if the Conservatives turn around and say 'No we're not going to waste time when everybody knows it's Conservative policy to back the minimum wage', and vote against the motion, Labour will be quoting 'Conservatives vote against minimum wage' in the newspaper and their leaflets! More games...
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Andrew. This is the first national debate we have put forward so you're way off the mark. Your Conservatives have put forward 50 or 60 at various meetings in 12 months. You have Cllr Britcliffe have both pressed Greg Pope on early day motions regularly and several campaigns that have no connection to Hyndburn. Do you think you can kid the general public.

I agree, I pretty much always stick to local. I have always thought we do not give up enough time to wider issues that affect Hyndburn. This political debate is healthy and is based on a motion that is relevant to the people of Hyndburn. I think they should be more. Councillor Britcliffe supported the minimum wage but Councillor Collingridge didn't. So it was not petty politics in the end was it?
 
andrewb said:
Why did you circulate them on the night and not before so that they could be given serious thought. Did you not think the public should know what is happening in council too? Such hypocrisy. Labour are guilty of the same things you accuse the Conservatives of. People in glass houses..

Can't you just work together instead of constantly trying to trip the Tories up? :mad:
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Do you mean like Cllr Britcliffe does EVERY meeting! Andrew, you are quite frankly a bizarre young man.
 
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