Not even God: "On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn ... I am the Lord." And don't forget that Mandela shared the Peace Prize with F. W. de Klerk.
Nelson Mandela
- Thread starter Jim Procter
- Start date
Not even God: "On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn ... I am the Lord." And don't forget that Mandela shared the Peace Prize with F. W. de Klerk.
Or that Hitler loved his dogs and Eva Braun, not necessarily in that order I hasten to add.
Agreed, but is that the fault of one man?
There are a lot of issues in the whole of Africa, some of it I have been fortunate to see first hand.
We all have differing views on Nelson Mandela, but he was a man who stood up to injustice and oppression, were his methods right? where they just? not always, but the current state of affairs in South Africa cannot be attributed to him.
South Africa has one of the highest levels of Poverty in the world, there are 51 Million people in South Africa, 41 Million are Black, depending who you believe there 30-50% of the Black Adult population are Unemployed.
I don't for one second believe the ANC will make things better, Politicians will always look out for themselves.
Personally I have a lot of respect for Nelson Mandela, IMHO he was one of the defining world leaders of the 20th century.
Doubt if anyones disputing the guy did a lot of good in his later years?
A lot of good in later years eh? let’s see the proof on that Mr C
As President of a country with criminally deep socio-ecnomic problems, did he pour resources into redressing the imbalances of apartheid. Did he heck as like, Mandela’s government slipped into the custom of putting national corporatism, power and prestige above its people
With the all-powerful air armadas of Botswana weighing heavily on the minds (a note of sarcasm here)…Mandela’s government announced in November 1998 that it intended to purchase 28 BAE/SAAB JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden at a cost of R10.875 billion, i.e. R388 million (about US$65 million) per plane
Not content with jets, in 1999 a US$4.8 billion (R30 billion in 1999 rands) deal was finalised, later subject to allegations of corruption. The South African Department of Defence’s Strategic Defence Acquisition purchased a slew of shiny new weapons, including frigates, submarines, corvettes, light utility helicopters, fighter jet trainers and advanced light fighter aircraft. All some would say to keep the expansionist intentions of Madagascar at bay…
Dead right .......a lot of good in later years for the worlds arms producers not too much evidence that he improved the lot of his people.
And the finale of the piece you forgot to mark as a quote states...
"It’s important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal."
I have been to RSA quite a few times visiting family, during and post apartheid.
If you talk to South Africans, both black & white, including ANC supporters, the majority will say that it is a worse place to live now. When I first went there the exchange rate was R5.3/£1, it fell drastically and now it is around 16 to the £. The ANC have failed to meet the promises they have continued to make, yes, many rich blacks but many more are dirt poor. Perhaps worst of all is that racialism is still rife - if you are Xhosa then you have a better chance, but if you are from a minority tribe then you are down the list, way down. The political parties are in the main supported on tribal lines.
It is no different to N.Ireland - ex-terrorists in the government.
Much like the majority of African countries
Cashy, the media either lionise someone or demonise them...there appears to be no middle road.Doubt if anyones disputing the guy did a lot of good in his later years? Its just too sickly to me, to make the guy out to be a saint.
Totally agree Cashy, Gandhi and Martin Luther King, fought racial prejudice with words not a gun barrel,Doubt if anyones disputing the guy did a lot of good in his later years? Its just too sickly to me, to make the guy out to be a saint.
Read this somewhere too Guinness.
"Is any application of ethics more of an assessment of the adjudicator than of the object of adjudication?"
You can sit from the comfort of a warm home with a guarantee of free speech, grabbing soundbites from google, from a position when the last time one of your countrymen was violently oppressed was 1066. And it's oh so easy to pretend that you would not use violence or terrorism to simply be treated as an equal or to protect your family.
You can expect that people will call you by the name given to you by your parents and not changed when you start school. You can expect not to be awoken by police breaking your door in because of the colour of your skin or the area where you live.
Mandela was not an angel, he was a bloke...a bloke who screwed up in his youth and made good when he grew up (haven't we all to a lesser degree). For a very brief period he got South Africa, one of the most volatile countries on the planet, back on track. For one moment simply by wearing a rugby shirt he knocked the stuffing out of apartheid.
His legacy of forgiveness, level headedness and oratory skills make him a great man.
You cannot blame him for the current state of South Africa, one single man can only have an idea..it's up to everyone else to decide whether that idea is valid..and where politicians are concerned..nuff said!
You can expect that people will call you by the name given to you by your parents and not changed when you start school. You can expect not to be awoken by police breaking your door in because of the colour of your skin or the area where you live.
Mandela was not an angel, he was a bloke...a bloke who screwed up in his youth and made good when he grew up (haven't we all to a lesser degree). For a very brief period he got South Africa, one of the most volatile countries on the planet, back on track. For one moment simply by wearing a rugby shirt he knocked the stuffing out of apartheid.
His legacy of forgiveness, level headedness and oratory skills make him a great man.
You cannot blame him for the current state of South Africa, one single man can only have an idea..it's up to everyone else to decide whether that idea is valid..and where politicians are concerned..nuff said!
We do it all the time Guiness, weighing up the various aspects of a character in our judgment of said character. Ask the families of the people who were murdered by his thugs if they will mourn his passing.
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See what I did there?....
Anyone can take a couple of lines from a post and ignore the three paragraph argument that went before
I have no arguments with the three para' arguments Guinness, well maybe with two of em' but not fancying a thread wander at this time of night I cut them for brevity. But you don't need any explanations from me do you?
If the Nazis had invaded Britain in 1940, doubtless a British Resistance movement would have been sprung up. They would've planted bombs, killing Germans and probably a few Brits as well. What would they have been?...terrorists?...or freedom fighters?
What was Mandela supposed to do? Go cap-in-hand to the government and say "please, Mr De Clerk, stop this nasty apartheid system and let us be equal to you?" Minority government don't just stand aside and say, "after you, old boy". It takes a lot of blood, sweat and tears to wrest power from them. Innocents shouldn't have been killed in the process, but, then again, we've killed plenty of innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe we're terrorists, too.
And, yes, the post-apartheid government has not lived up to its promise - government don't usually - but I'll bet the majority in SA wouldn't want to go back to the old regime.
Mandela was a great man - flawed as are many great men - but a great man nonetheless.
What was Mandela supposed to do? Go cap-in-hand to the government and say "please, Mr De Clerk, stop this nasty apartheid system and let us be equal to you?" Minority government don't just stand aside and say, "after you, old boy". It takes a lot of blood, sweat and tears to wrest power from them. Innocents shouldn't have been killed in the process, but, then again, we've killed plenty of innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe we're terrorists, too.
And, yes, the post-apartheid government has not lived up to its promise - government don't usually - but I'll bet the majority in SA wouldn't want to go back to the old regime.
Mandela was a great man - flawed as are many great men - but a great man nonetheless.
Opinion changes & disappears with time Wynonie. No one can change their past. They can change their future. choose to do good with the time that remains. No doubt Nelson Mandela followed that path of righteousness in his later years as have Gerry Adams and his mate McGuinness. I’ll not be elbowing anybody out of the way to be a pall-bearer at their funerals though.
It's a shame when people read but don't understand.
Though it does happen Quite a great deal here on AccyWeb, take for example my above sentence.
I put it on not to canonize nor to condemn a man that has been prominent during my life time.
Within 30 minutes I was told basically, to slow down with my praise and given a list of the bad things in the guys life and the same poster keeps reproducing that post in various forms if anyone even slightly offers the man praise.
Well, allow me to repeat myself then explain slowly why I said what I said.
If you notice I didn't go on about the good things he has done, nor did I list the bad things he did in his early life.
Why? not because I was ignorant of his early life, nor did I think he was perfect once he got into power.
It was said because he had been a guy that did do bad things but later on tried, to do good things.
I'm an Atheist, but from what I understand some guy said something about a sinner repenting and being welcomed back.
I didn't say it was him, I said it could be him.
He was a man, he wasn't perfect, I didn't try to make him out as bad nor good, just a message of goodbye, I didn't say he would get in, I just hinted that when placed on the scales his good might outweigh his bad and allow him some peace.
This says it all for me.
Would that we had some man with such skills to lead us......all we have are self serving braying donkeys.
It's a shame when people read but don't understand.
Though it does happen Quite a great deal here on AccyWeb, take for example my above sentence.
I put it on not to canonize nor to condemn a man that has been prominent during my life time.
Within 30 minutes I was told basically, to slow down with my praise and given a list of the bad things in the guys life and the same poster keeps reproducing that post in various forms if anyone even slightly offers the man praise.
Well, allow me to repeat myself then explain slowly why I said what I said.
If you notice I didn't go on about the good things he has done, nor did I list the bad things he did in his early life.
Why? not because I was ignorant of his early life, nor did I think he was perfect once he got into power.
It was said because he had been a guy that did do bad things but later on tried, to do good things.
I'm an Atheist, but from what I understand some guy said something about a sinner repenting and being welcomed back.
I didn't say it was him, I said it could be him.
He was a man, he wasn't perfect, I didn't try to make him out as bad nor good, just a message of goodbye, I didn't say he would get in, I just hinted that when placed on the scales his good might outweigh his bad and allow him some peace.
Thanks Less for your enunciation.
In the words of the great man himself, " I will bow to your greater knowledge in this area"