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Mancie said:
Just to carry this on.. when has this country ever had the workforce,applied by law, been ristricted to work only 3 days a week? and when was the last time the population had to suffer compulsory power cuts? do I need to tell you? 73 under the Tories!
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http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f69/observer-plug-accy-web-22265-8.html

The threeday week was largely due to the miners Union, Thatcher sorted that lot out. I never defended the past conservative governments before her, cause they could have done better.

However, what about the winter of discontent? Lost Labour the election, there were certainly power cuts then, and that was in 78/79 not 73 :)
 
Greg Pope said:
With David Cameron what we are seeing is the spin of change
:engsmil:
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Brilliant, Greg! Just given you some karma for your sheer cheek! A supporter of New Labour accusing another party of "spin". You guys invented it! :D
 
Wyn...I think that was what I was implying in my earlier thread.....and Mancie, the education I was expecting was from Greg....but all that you posted I already was aware of........I just wondered if along the way there was something that I had missed:).

As for 'New Labour'...they just dressed themselves in tory clothes and hoped that the real socialists wouldn't notice...and a lot of them didn't!

I hope that by now I have convinced some of you that I have NO political allegiance.
 
Thanks for the karma Wynonie! I take the jibes at me accusing anyone else of 'spin' in the spirit in which i'm sure they're intended - fair comment :) . But my serious point remains: there is no doubt that New Labour was really different to Old Labour, that change was painful but necessary for the Labour Party, and we benefited from it. In contrast I think that all Dave Cameron is doing is a re-branding exercise whilst the Tories remain essentially unchanged. Time will tell I guess, and it may be that I am too biased to have good judgement on this.
 
Cyfr said:
Which MP was that?

if i could remember cyfr i would certainly tell you, it was when arthur davidson was the mp for accy and i went down to the smoke as part of a deputation to lobby him, and it was some smug tory git in the house bar afterwards.
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Greg, the Tories remain "essentially unchanged" in the sense that while the leadership have at least given lip-service to change the party activists are still traditional Tories. But the same can equally be said of Labour. How many rank-and-file party members are genuinely New Labour? The ones I've talked to are completely at odds with the party heirarchy on a whole range of issues from the Iraq war to tuition fees. However, you're right about the Tories not experiencing a defining "clause 4 moment" yet.

As for the karma, you're welcome (and don't forget, this is the second lot of karma I've given you, as I thought you deserved some for having the bottle to make an appearance on Accychat in the first place, in marked contrast to the reclusive Councillor Britcliffe). However you're now doubly welcome as I've just read elsewhere about your campaign to get Rovers and Burnley playing at home on the same days, enabling Stanley to play their home matches on alternate Saturdays with no competition from either of them. Obviously, too late for the coming season, but if this comes in for the 2007/08 season, I believe it will literally transform Stanley's fortunes. The best idea I've heard from a politician for a long time! :)
 
Wynonie Harris said:
Greg, the Tories remain "essentially unchanged" in the sense that while the leadership have at least given lip-service to change the party activists are still traditional Tories.
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I'm sorry but what is this based on?
The activists voted Cameron in 2:1 over a traditional Tory. If the vast majority of the activists were still traditionals they would have voted in David Davis.
 
No, they wouldn't. They've voted for Cameron because they think he can get them into power and they're willing to put their principles on hold.
 
Cyfr said:
We will see come 2009, or herhaps earlier if Blair stays in long enough ;)
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Why are you so sure the next election will be in 2009. The last election was in May 2005, and as a parliament can last for up to 5 years, the next election does not nedd to be held until 2010. In fact you will find that the last Tory government, with John Major a PM, was voted into power in 1992, but served the full 5 years, the elcetion was on 1/5/1997.
Even when Tony Blair relinquishes the job of PM, there does not need to be a general election, the Labour Party will then choose another leader, who would then become PM.
 
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Wynonie Harris said:
No, they wouldn't. They've voted for Cameron because they think he can get them into power and they're willing to put their principles on hold.
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Oh. Right. :rolleyes:

Glad you sorted that one out! I guess theres not much of a come back to write, as you've clearly made up your own mind through speaking with the few hundred thousand Conservative activists, and deemed they only voted him in to get in to power. Even though thousands more have joined the Conservative party after the election of Cameron showing they joined for his Compassionate Conservativsm.

If a party wins on a manifesto they have a duty to uphold that manifesto, the Lords will try to ensure that a party in power dosn't go against it's manifesto (Like they did when they put forward an amendment to the ID card scheme, to ensure it wasn't mandatory, because Labours manifesto said they would not be mandatory.)
The opposition will oppose things which go against the governments manifesto too, because they're there to scruitinise. Heck, even the governing parties own MP's will, because they have a conscience.
 
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Wynonie Harris said:
No, they wouldn't. They've voted for Cameron because they think he can get them into power and they're willing to put their principles on hold.
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I think you have summarised the Tory 'faithful' very well with this comment.
 
claytonender said:
Why are you so sure the next election will be in 2009.
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Yeah im aware that theres a manditory election after 5years, but Blair has called an election after 4 years for the previous 2 terms, so my assumption was Brown (Again i assume Brown will become the next PM) would call one in 2009, however as you say it could well be 2010 :)
 
Thanks, Claytonender, but I must say, I think there's a similar gulf between the Labour party members and leadership - ie, I think the activists are a lot more left-wing. As you're a party activist yourself, I'd be interested to know if you think that's true?
 
So you seriously believe that thousands of Tory party members have experienced an overnight conversion and ditched their cherished beliefs about market forces, immigration and many other subjects to join touchy-feely Dave's modern, progressive Conservative movement? You poor, deluded boy!
 
Wynonie Harris said:
So you seriously believe that thousands of Tory party members have experienced an overnight conversion and ditched their cherished beliefs about market forces, immigration and many other subjects to join touchy-feely Dave's modern, progressive Conservative movement? You poor, deluded boy!
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Not an overnight conversion no. They havn't had a chance to vote on a leader since 2001. In 2001 they got to vote on Ian Duncan Smith (Right wing) or Ken Clarke (more center), however a lot of the Conservative activists do not want full integration with Europe the way that Ken Clarke did, so a right-wing candidate preveiled over him.
The point im trying to make is that they havn't had a chance to vote on a moderate candidate yet, so it's not an overnight conversion, its from back past 2001, not to mention a lot of the membership will have changed, people leave, people join, people die, people are born.

I'm not deluded at all, you're following an anti-conservative stance, not a rational stance where you look at all the facts and come to a conclusion. Where as I am perfectly happy to point out Conservative failings and express how the past 3 leaders have been usless because they were too right wing when we need stability from Conservative ideologies, not far-out right ideas.
 
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I'm merely pointing out that, in my opinion, there are striking parallels between the changes the Tories are going through and the transformation of the Labour party a few years ago. Ian Duncan-Smith was the Tories' Michael Foot figure; he embodied many of their most cherished beliefs - a right-wing approach, middle class respectability etc. However, they realised that they'd never get into power with him, so now they have a leader who has a fighting chance. However, just as many rank-and-file Labour members still retain the socialist values of old Labour, so many ordinary Tories are still right wingers at heart.

And, yes, you are deluded, Cyfr. Hopefully as you grow older, you will become a little less naive and see things as they really are.
 
Wynonie Harris said:
I'm merely pointing out that, in my opinion, there are striking parallels between the changes the Tories are going through and the transformation of the Labour party a few years ago. Ian Duncan-Smith was the Tories' Michael Foot figure; he embodied many of their most cherished beliefs - a right-wing approach, middle class respectability etc. However, they realised that they'd never get into power with him, so now they have a leader who has a fighting chance. However, just as many rank-and-file Labour members still retain the socialist values of old Labour, so many ordinary Tories are still right wingers at heart.

And, yes, you are deluded, Cyfr. Hopefully as you grow older, you will become a little less naive and see things as they really are.
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Back any of this up as fact, please. If you can give me a recent poll or something that says that the majroity of the Conservative membership are far right rather than moderate right, then i'll happily retract my statement about them. But so far, i've provided reasons as to why you might have this perception of the membership, and everything holds up, the fact that they havn't had a chance to vote for a moderate Tory in 5 years, and even then he was pro europe where as many Conservative members don't want that, so your perception could go back decades.

I am not deluded, i'm perfectly able to make rational decisions. Please, if theres one thing I dislike, it's patronising me because im younger than you. I don't put my age and picture on here so it can be used as an excuse to try and get the upper hand in a debate.
 
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Never having done it myself (;)), I feel able to comment that this thread has wandered quite a bit from the accusation by a Tory Accy Web member in the press, that this website is full of vile tirades against Peter Britcliffe.

At least it's brought some interesting debate.

Who was it that you should never talk about religion or politics?

Very often they result in our most interesting threads.__________________
 
Do you actually live in the real world. Cyfr? Do you ever go into any Con Clubs? I do, not for political reasons, but because you can drink cheap beer in a chav-free zone. The Tories I speak to are by and large a pretty right-wing bunch. They've voted for Cameron, not because they have much belief in him but because they reckon he's the best chance they've got of getting into power and they'd rather have a middle-of-the-road Tory government than none at all.

I'll start treating you like a rational adult when you eventually come down from that ivory tower you're living in.
 
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