Observer plug for Accy Web.

Wynonie Harris said:
Do you actually live in the real world. Cyfr? Do you ever go into any Con Clubs? I do, not for political reasons, but because you can drink cheap beer in a chav-free zone. The Tories I speak to are by and large a pretty right-wing bunch. They've voted for Cameron, not because they have much belief in him but because they reckon he's the best chance they've got of getting into power and they'd rather have a middle-of-the-road Tory government than none at all.

I'll start treating you like a rational adult when you eventually come down from that ivory tower you're living in.
Click to expand...

Yes I do live in the real world. Isn't it pretty obvious that the more right-wing enthusiastic activists would be more inclined to go to the Conservative Clubs, and hence what you saw was not representative of the whole membership.

You should start treating me like a rational adult now, the fact that i'm younger than you does not make you any better, and dosn't give you the right to patronise me.
 
Wynonie Harris said:
Do you actually live in the real world. Cyfr? Do you ever go into any Con Clubs? I do, not for political reasons, but because you can drink cheap beer in a chav-free zone. The Tories I speak to are by and large a pretty right-wing bunch. They've voted for Cameron, not because they have much belief in him but because they reckon he's the best chance they've got of getting into power and they'd rather have a middle-of-the-road Tory government than none at all.

I'll start treating you like a rational adult when you eventually come down from that ivory tower you're living in.
Click to expand...
And to think that I was quite enjoying this little discussion/debate/whatever. Then all of a sudden ad hominem attacks begin to surface symbolising a weakness in attack strategy. Rather than turn this into some flame on "The Little Guy", why don't you formulate an intelligent and reasoned argument. I don't agree entirely with Cyfr's points, but there's no need to blatently insult him. This may be news to you, but if you go to a conservative club, you're going to find conservatives. And only the most hard core conservatives will go out of their way to go to said clubs. They're obviously going to be hardcore right-wingers. Or at least a fair few. In the same way that when I go to labour clubs I find that quite a few of the people there willing to indoctrinate me into the ways of Unions and Workers' rights. This doesn't mean that every person who votes labour believes that Unions should be free to roam the earth as Gods. As for this Tory MP that you might have met sometime in the... was is 80's? 90's? Anyway... you met him and you think... well you're pretty sure now you think about it... that he probably said something about conserving for oneself... or whatever. Nice bit of anecdotal evidence that proves...???

P.S. Next time you use complex phrases like "Ivory Tower" in your efforts to patronise people, at least get them in the right context.
 
Last edited:
CYFR - Whilst I don't agree with most of your opinions, it is very heartneing that someone of your age is taking an interest in politics.I apologise if any of my posts, in reply you have appeared to be patronising, because I didn't mean them to be.
I do think, however, that your views will change as you gain more experience of the world. Theories about Politics are fine, but wait till you have suffered because of the firm you work for 'downsizing' or moving their work 'offshore'. Then your ideas may change.
 
DeShark said:
And to think that I was quite enjoying this little discussion/debate/whatever. Then all of a sudden ad hominem attacks begin to surface symbolising a weakness in attack strategy. Rather than turn this into some flame on "The Little Guy", why don't you formulate an intelligent and reasoned argument. I don't agree entirely with Cyfr's points, but there's no need to blatently insult him. This may be news to you, but if you go to a conservative club, you're going to find conservatives. And only the most hard core conservatives will go out of their way to go to said clubs. They're obviously going to be hardcore right-wingers. Or at least a fair few. In the same way that when I go to labour clubs I find that quite a few of the people there willing to indoctrinate me into the ways of Unions and Workers' rights. This doesn't mean that every person who votes labour believes that Unions should be free to roam the earth as Gods. As for this Tory MP that you might have met sometime in the... was is 80's? 90's? Anyway... you met him and you think... well you're pretty sure now you think about it... that he probably said something about conserving for oneself... or whatever. Nice bit of anecdotal evidence that proves...???
you might have been enjoying this debate but you wern't taking much notice?it was me that did meet(not might) and it was well before the 80s/90s as you would know if you knew your politics.
Click to expand...
 
Cyfr, why would "more right-wing, enthusiastic activists be more inclined to go to the conservative clubs"? Surely, these mythical, moderate Tories you speak of are just as enthusiastic as the right-wing ones? And why don't they go to Tory clubs? Are they teatotal or just plain anti-social? I now have a vision of a silent army of thousands of liberal-minded Tories sitting in their homes waiting for the call from the boy David.

DeShark, a very impressive first post. What a pity you couldn't get your basic facts right. Never mind, perhaps you'll pay more attention next time, eh?
 
Wynonie Harris said:
Cyfr, why would "more right-wing, enthusiastic activists be more inclined to go to the conservative clubs"? Surely, these mythical, moderate Tories you speak of are just as enthusiastic as the right-wing ones? And why don't they go to Tory clubs? Are they teatotal or just plain anti-social? I now have a vision of a silent army of thousands of liberal-minded Tories sitting in their homes waiting for the call from the boy David.

DeShark, a very impressive first post. What a pity you couldn't get your basic facts right. Never mind, perhaps you'll pay more attention next time, eh?
Click to expand...

Is it not obvious? The more extreme your views, the more enuthusicastic you get about a subject. Hence the reason why theres so much voter turnout when the parties policies are far apart.
Now, could you show me any real evidence to backup your claim other than a few people you met down the local Tory Club?
At least I tried to interpret the way the membership have voted over the last 6 years or so, which is a heck of a lot more representative than a few people in a local club.
 
Really? So, those with traditional Tory views are more enthusiastic in their beliefs than those with moderate views? I would have thought that this is quite an insult to all moderate Tory party members, including yourself. As for your "interpretation" of Tory leadership voting patterns, surely these moderate Tories would have voted for Ken Clarke rather than Ian Duncan-Smith, as the former's views on Europe are not that different from David Cameron's, although you may be able to correct me on that.

I'm also still puzzled by the apparent dominance in Tory clubs of, to quote DeShark's phrase "hardcore right-wingers" if what you say is true. Surely, now the one-nation faction are in the ascendancy, there should be more evidence of them by now...or do they not get out much?
 
DeShark said:
In the same way that when I go to labour clubs I find that quite a few of the people there willing to indoctrinate me into the ways of Unions and Workers' rights. This doesn't mean that every person who votes labour believes that Unions should be free to roam the earth as Gods.
Click to expand...

Exactly my point. The Labour party leadership has become more moderate and this has attracted more support from ordinary voters, but the party activists are still resolutely left-wing. Quote from Claytonender to Cyfr earlier in this thread, "You say that the Labour Party is no longer left wing - are you in touch with main body of party members?" I also go into Labour Clubs (cheap beer, chav-free zone etc!) and Claytonender is right on the money in this.

In my view, the Tories are now a mirror image of the Labour party in this way, but apparently not according to Cyfr.
 
Wynonie Harris said:
Exactly my point. The Labour party leadership has become more moderate and this has attracted more support from ordinary voters, but the party activists are still resolutely left-wing. Quote from Claytonender to Cyfr earlier in this thread, "You say that the Labour Party is no longer left wing - are you in touch with main body of party members?" I also go into Labour Clubs (cheap beer, chav-free zone etc!) and Claytonender is right on the money in this.

In my view, the Tories are now a mirror image of the Labour party in this way, but apparently not according to Cyfr.
Click to expand...

I agree. The labour party's leader is further right than his party and the Conservative party leader is more moderate. But who is it that rules the country in essence? I think Blair proved quite aptly in his recent reforms on Education that he doesn't need the support of his own party to pass right-wing bills and that he can depend on the opposition party to fulfil his requests. Therefore, in effect, it doesn't matter what political persuassion the main body of party members hold, if their leader is right, then right wing policies will be passed, with or without their support. Surely it would be better to have a leader who shares the same views as his party. Then, when I go to vote for a party, I can be sure that both the party members and the party leader are willing to carry out the views that I stand for and voted in favour of. When voting for labour, I get the same right-wing policies as I would under any other right wing govt.

But of course David Cameron isn't left wing! He's "conservative to the core". But then again, his party have illustrated that they want change simply by voting for him. They had the option of a stuck in his ways Tory or the more revolutionary figure of David Cameron. They voted for change. Yes David Cameron will implement core Tory ideas, ideas that I must say I don't like; Privatisation, poor Union backing, reducing support for those who need it. He hasn't even promised to reduce taxes, a statement which worries me seriously. It's like "I'd like to adopt certain features of conservativism... but screw the fiscal parts, our nation's in too big of a mess for that now".

I still haven't decided upon my political persuassion as of yet and it's not until recently that I started to take an interest in these things. So yes, I may be wrong, but it'd make for a more interesting argument if you could back up your statements instead of dismissing mine as puerile.

P.S. Sorry for not paying enough attention to the debate and misquoting you. Kinda ruined my entire first post. Ah well... I stand by what I said about patronisation being a weak form of debating style.
 
DeShark said:
But of course David Cameron isn't left wing! He's "conservative to the core".
Click to expand...

It isn't typically conservative to hoist his prefered candidate lists on local selection committees, which he admits are weighted in favour of women and ethnic minorities, and even includes an out lesbian.

Surely if he was a true conservative he would want the best person for the job regardless of gender or colour. This positive discrimination sounds more like something that was done by the old looney left in the eighties.
 
The best person should always get the job, and thats why im totaly against the likes of Blairs all women short lists... However there should be something to encourage constituancies to pick a more representative set of candidates, but still the best person should be picked. Just, at the moment, woman are often overlooked, regardless of whos best.
 
Cyfr said:
The best person should always get the job, and thats why im totaly against the likes of Blairs all women short lists... However there should be something to encourage constituancies to pick a more representative set of candidates, but still the best person should be picked. Just, at the moment, woman are often overlooked, regardless of whos best.
Click to expand...

It's your Dave that has the lists which are biased in favour of women and ethnic minorities. Which at the moment are being ignored by local Conservative associations in favour of the more traditional candidates, ie: white middle class men.

I smell trouble brewing.:)
 
garinda said:
It isn't typically conservative to hoist his prefered candidate lists on local selection committees, which he admits are weighted in favour of women and ethnic minorities, and even includes an out lesbian.

Surely if he was a true conservative he would want the best person for the job regardless of gender or colour. This positive discrimination sounds more like something that was done by the old looney left in the eighties.
Click to expand...

That was my point, essentially. The "conservative to the core" was a quote. It goes to show that in trying to please everyone you please no-one. It's where labour got their oh so cheap phrase Cameron the Chameleon from. Cameron is willing to be picky about which conservative ideas he wants and which he doesn't. I absolutely adore his character and style and watching him on PMQ gives me a giggle, but I can't stand him to be honest.

I'd also like to clarify what I said earlier about my own political persuassion. What I meant to say was that I don't know who I'll be voting for in the upcoming elections. I support liberal ideas and freedom. All things in moderation. For example, I believe in a free market, but I disagree with monopolisation. Many would place me to the conservative side because of this. But then I also believe in supporting those who cannot help themselves. Those who are able to work but deny the opportunity do not, in my opinion, deserve the support of society. I agree with the lowering of taxes and agree with privatisation. I would probably say I'm erring towards left-wing conservatism with a healthy dose of freedom. If such a thing exists. This would probably make me vote conservative (if they still held their older values of privatisation, which cameron doesn't, and he won't reduce taxes... he'll probably take away benefits too). I don't know how that helps to progress the argument, just thought it'd be useful to use against me.
 
DeShark said:
I don't know how that helps to progress the argument, just thought it'd be useful to use against me.
Click to expand...

That would never happen on here!:eek: :D

Welcome to Accy Web by the way.:)
 
DeShark said:
I agree. The labour party's leader is further right than his party and the Conservative party leader is more moderate.
Click to expand...

Why, that's what I've been saying all along! Sadly, though I don't have any statistics to support my argument, just a gut feeling from talking to members of both parties. You obviously share my gut feeling. Like you, though, I'd much prefer it if party leaders reflected the views of their party, so we knew what we were voting for.

DeShark said:
t'd make for a more interesting argument if you could back up your statements instead of dismissing mine as puerile.
Click to expand...

However, once again, DeShark, I must pull you up for accusing me of things I haven't said. Where in my posts have I dismissed your statements as "puerile"? Do pay attention in future!

Anyway, can't stop, I've got to go and "talk to some activists" for a few hours. ;)
 
Wynonie Harris said:
Why, that's what I've been saying all along! Sadly, though I don't have any statistics to support my argument, just a gut feeling from talking to members of both parties. You obviously share my gut feeling. Like you, though, I'd much prefer it if party leaders reflected the views of their party, so we knew what we were voting for.
Click to expand...
Never going to happen unless you happen to find a one member party.
In the end why does it even matter what the membership feel? It's the Leader who has overall control over policy, at least with New Labour and always has been for the Torys..

Your 'gut feeling' is based on the opinions of a few people in a Conservative Club, you know, the place that TRADITIONALY conservative members have gone to meet.. theres a keyword there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top