r. biggs.

cashman said:
i'm certainly not misty eyed about biggs he was a career criminal simple as! my point is simple the sentences the train robbers got where well out of kelter wi what was the order of the day fer murderers n other serious crimes, i have already stated the reason fer it, you young uns seem too misty eyed to grasp that. n as far the argument about the postcode lottery fer treatment thats summat i have gone through personally, n also summat far worse at the same time, it makes no differance to my view about those sentences it didn't back in 60s n it don't now.:rolleyes:
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As stated none of them served longer than ten years in clink.

Also they knew the severity of the sentences that might be dealt to them if they were caught, when they planned their crime.

You've already stated that the sentences were harsher because it was public money, a fact they'd also have known at the time, yet they still went ahead with it.

Hitting someone with an iron bar isn't an exact science. They, as well as the driver were lucky he wasn't killed, and the sentences harsher still.
 
With hindsight I expect he would agree with you Rindy. I might be one of those 'oldies' who looks at it differently but he was a fairly young man at the time and thirty years in prison must have seemed such a long road to go down.

I was only fifteen or so at the time and remember watching the news and comparing it to 'Bonanza' or some such programme we watched in those days. It was even more exciting when he escaped.

All in all, it isn't going to matter a damn in the end as he will never leave his hospital bed alive and he's suffered in his own way for years.

I so wish we had internet when Bonnie and Clyde ran amok..........what a good thread that would have been!

June x
 
junetta said:
With hindsight I expect he would agree with you Rindy. I might be one of those 'oldies' who looks at it differently but he was a fairly young man at the time and thirty years in prison must have seemed such a long road to go down.

I was only fifteen or so at the time and remember watching the news and comparing it to 'Bonanza' or some such programme we watched in those days. It was even more exciting when he escaped.

All in all, it isn't going to matter a damn in the end as he will never leave his hospital bed alive and he's suffered in his own way for years.

I so wish we had internet when Bonnie and Clyde ran amok..........what a good thread that would have been!

June x
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I was wrong to post the 'old codgers' comment. Though there is a divide of opinion, which might depend on age, and how you view the crimes.

A thirty year sentence would seem a long stretch to a younger man, but if you've decided that violent crime seems an easier path in life, than working legitimately for a living, that's a consequence of your choice.

Unofficially the powers that be had long ago given up trying to extradite him, and finish his sentence. After many costly and futile attempts, made nigh on impossible when he fathered a child who was a Brazilian national.

He could have remained free for the rest of his days, if he'd have stayed in Brazil. He knew even though he was an old, sick man, he'd be arrested as soon as he stepped off the plane.

That was his choice, because he needed medical care he could no longer afford in Brazil.

Choices, and consequences.

A life of crime will probably mean time spent inside a jail. Fact.

A flight back to this country, to make use of the free health service, meant certain imprisonment. Fact.

His choices.
 
garinda said:
As stated none of them served longer than ten years in clink.

Also they knew the severity of the sentences that might be dealt to them if they were caught, when they planned their crime.

You've already stated that the sentences were harsher because it was public money, a fact they'd also have known at the time, yet they still went ahead with it.

Hitting someone with an iron bar isn't an exact science. They, as well as the driver were lucky he wasn't killed, and the sentences harsher still.
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i dispute the second paragraph, as i remember everyone was "Shocked" at the time at the time dished out by the judge, at least everyone wi any commonsense, so how they knew or expected em is beyond me.
 
cashman said:
i dispute the second paragraph, as i remember everyone was "Shocked" at the time at the time dished out by the judge, at least everyone wi any commonsense, so how they knew or expected em is beyond me.
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In 1961 Gordon Lonsdale, in a high profile trial, was sentenced to a term of 25 years in prison, for plotting to pass on secrets to the Russians.

For executing what was then the biggest robbery in British history, I suppose a sentence of thirty years was a risk they took, when they decided to go ahead with this audacious crime.

If he'd have done his time, and shown any remorse, Biggs could have been a free man since the mid seventies, as no one served longer than ten years for the crime.

His choice.

Very often those attracted to a 'career' in crime chose the easiest route in life, rather than knuckling down and working hard for a living, like the vast majority of law abiding members of society.

He's certainly not some sort of folk hero to me. He wasn't playing Robin Hood, who was stealing to support a load of poor orphans. He was in it for himself, because he thought it was easier than working legally.

His choice.
 
no folk hero to me either, but that was never my point which ya seem to ignore, cos i don't believe ya don't grasp it.:)
 
thinking back , I'm thinking some of the sympathy the 'train robbers' got was from the fact the Kray twins and slumlord Rachman (snakes in the bath) were in the news a lot at the time and they seemed to 'get off' with a lot easier sentances for more heinious crimes than the 'train robbers'
 
cashman said:
the guy who got coshed was a fool, should just have let em get on wi it simple as. could understand his actions if it had been his money.:rolleyes:
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Nowhere have I posted in this thread that he was seen as some sort of folk hero to yourself, though to some it appears he is.

As pointed out earlier, the money belonged to every hard working man and woman in the country, the bulk of which was never recovered.

Calling the train driver 'a fool', for not giving in to these violent thugs, is a shocking statement.

He too suffered the consequences of his actions, because he was unable to work again from the age of 57, and suffered pain from the injuries he received until his death.

To me someone like Jack Mills, a hard working train driver, injured because he didn't give in to those who use violence to get what they want, is much more of a hero, than any selfish thug, who's only out to steal what they want at any cost.

I have a very clear grasp on what I think is right and wrong.;)
 
garinda said:
We seem to have a generation divide on this one.:rolleyes:

The old codgers seem to be misty eyed about old Ronnie, whilst those of us too young to remember seem to have more sypmathy with the victim, rather than those that chose violent crime as a career.
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Well I'm in the old codgers bracket as you put it Rindi and I agree with you, he thumbed his nose a British justice for 30 years and only came back when his money ran out and his health was failing and he wanted NHS treatment
 
garinda said:
Calling the train driver 'a fool', for not giving in to these violent thugs, is a shocking statement.



I have a very clear grasp on what I think is right and wrong.;)
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it may be shocking to you, but its fact, not the brightest move anyone ever made in those circumstances, i say things as i see em, if some don't like that TOUGH.
 
cashman said:
it may be shocking to you, but its fact, not the brightest move anyone ever made in those circumstances, i say things as i see em, if some don't like that TOUGH.
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I guess some people just lie down and hand over whatever's demanded of them, when faced with violent bullies, and others of us would fight back, and not give in.

Choices and consequences.

Although personally I'd feel pretty ashamed of myself for labelling someone a 'fool', who decided not to give in to thuggery, whilst going about his job.
 
Bottom line is Biggs commited a crime, he served fifteen months before escaping and going abroad to spend his ill gotten gains. When he became ill he decided that Britain was the place to be because he would get free NHS care. To my mind he is just as bad as the people who come on holiday here knowing they will get free treatment also. Why should we think any differently of him? He paid nowt in yet expects to be looked after and that is wrong in my book!!!
 
garinda said:
I guess some people just lie down and hand over whatever's demanded of them, when faced with violent bullies, and others of us would fight back, and not give in.

Choices and consequences.

Although personally I'd feel pretty ashamed of myself for labelling someone a 'fool', who decided not to give in to thuggery, whilst going about his job.
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not in the least, faced with a bunch of masked thugs armed with coshes, i would feel pretty ashamed if through my stupidity, i was then unable to provide fer my family,fer the rest of my natural. may be hard fer hero's to grasp but THEY have always come first in my book.:rolleyes: as you yerself say Choices n consequences.
 
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BERNADETTE said:
Bottom line is Biggs commited a crime, he served fifteen months before escaping and going abroad to spend his ill gotten gains. When he became ill he decided that Britain was the place to be because he would get free NHS care. To my mind he is just as bad as the people who come on holiday here knowing they will get free treatment also. Why should we think any differently of him? He paid nowt in yet expects to be looked after and that is wrong in my book!!!
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Exactly my sentiments too Bernie.
 
cashman said:
not in the least, faced with a bunch of masked thugs armed with coshes, i would feel pretty ashamed if through my stupidity, i was then unable to provide fer my family,fer the rest of my natural. may be hard fer hero's to grasp but THEY have always come first in my book.:rolleyes: as you yerself say Choices n consequences.
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...happily for us the millions who died in wars facing weapons much worse than iron bars, in order to ensure our freedom in Britain, had more of 'have a go' attitude.

I still think it's an odd attitude to have. The other day you applauded the actions of the two lads who caught and detained the suspected child rapist, not knowing what danger they were putting themselves in, he could easily have been armed with a knife, gun, or iron bar, and yet labelling an innocent victim, who dared to stand his ground when faced with this criminal gang, a 'fool'.

Not having a go Cashy, just genuinely suprised.
 
nowt to be suprised about rindy, if someone tried to rob me or mine, i know fer fact i would have a go, as i have in the past, if it was some firms money stuff it, i didn't have a go cos i'm brave or owt like that, i had a go cos cos me head went which is stupid. and to liken it to the millions who had a go in the war i think is pathetic, not even close to reality, expected better from you.:rolleyes:
 
cashman said:
nowt to be suprised about rindy, if someone tried to rob me or mine, i know fer fact i would have a go, as i have in the past, if it was some firms money stuff it, i didn't have a go cos i'm brave or owt like that, i had a go cos cos me head went which is stupid. and to liken it to the millions who had a go in the war i think is pathetic, not even close to reality, expected better from you.:rolleyes:
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The vast majority of people don't know how they'd react under a stressful situation, such as a violent robbery.

I applaud your self control, only defending your own personal posessions, rather than those of someone who employed you.

The vast majority of people, given a split second to make a decision, will act on instinct, irrespective of whose goods they are defending.

This train driver was going about his lawful business, and he stood up to these criminal bullies, and was injured because of it.

To me it's more pathetic to crassly label him a 'fool' for doing what he did.

In most people's opinion, at least in this thread it seems, a more suitable label for him would be a 'have a go hero'.

Certainly the label suits him better, than ever could be said of Ronnie Biggs.
 
disagree i labled myself stupid fer having a go in circumstances which were very dangerous i don't regard that as pathetic more foolish, n the same applies to the driver, i have always acted on instinct, but have held certain things/rules dear all me life n will continue to do so.
 
cashman said:
disagree i labled myself stupid fer having a go in circumstances which were very dangerous i don't regard that as pathetic more foolish, n the same applies to the driver, i have always acted on instinct, but have held certain things/rules dear all me life n will continue to do so.
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If this gang of violent thugs had given the train driver advance notice they were going to attack the train, he might have decided to act differently than he did.

This was not he case.

He has a split second to act, and was coshed on the head because of his actions, and lived with those injuries for the rest of his life.

Hindsight's a wonderful thing.

With it Jack Mills may have acted differently, and wouldn't then be dismissed by yourself as 'a fool', some forty six years later.
 
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