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-   -   M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible (https://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f69/m-and-s-muslim-refuses-to-serve-unclean-bible-36237.html)

thomas.lee 16-01-2008 19:45
M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Ridiculous.

Muslim M&S worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother, customer claims | the Daily Mail

flashy 16-01-2008 19:47
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
well thats just terrible

Bonnyboy 16-01-2008 19:53
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
I’ll refrain from any rant until whatever the shop assistant said gets published. The story as it appears in the link seems a bit one-sided, maybe there is a bit of “Headline Grabbing” taking place.

thomas.lee 16-01-2008 19:59
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
To be honest.. I can believe it though..

garinda 16-01-2008 20:01
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
I didn't know M & S sold books.

I'll have to pop a kiddies Bible into my basket the next time I go in to buy my bacon, and other non-Halal goodies.:D

BLACKBURN RAVER 16-01-2008 20:14
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
thats another inch of our country taken from beneath our feet :rolleyes::rolleyes:

K.S.H 16-01-2008 20:42
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Not gonna get drawn into this one, I'm in a good mood and don't want it changing :)

derekgas 16-01-2008 21:09
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
I'm going to have a little fume in the corner and behave myself for a change, or maybe go to garinda's special needs thread and have a row with one or two people. humph!!

Doug 16-01-2008 21:22
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
A Christian Country, selling Christian books telling Bible stories…..unclean?

But it’s alright to murder young and old women alike in the name of so called Honour.

Unclean? This person may be a Muslim, had she been Catholic she would have been named and shamed and most likely dismissed…….

Unclean? My arse.

Bagpuss 16-01-2008 21:35
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K.S.H (Post 517990)
Not gonna get drawn into this one, I'm in a good mood and don't want it changing :)
I will say it for you then, firstly sack the assistant, then tie them up outside M&S and let us stone them, we should also burn effigies of them like I've seen on TV because I've been insulted.:rolleyes:

shakermaker 16-01-2008 21:41
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
My gut feeling says this is just another media warbling; most likely sensationalising the story and giving the BNP more ammo.

If it is completely as the paper reports - then of course the Muslim girl is a misguided idiot and should be sacked & prosecuted for creating civil unrest.

I do reserve my cynicism however.

Bagpuss 16-01-2008 21:50
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
If this case goes to court it would be interesting for me because I've been called up for jury service AGAIN, I'm sure I would listen to all the evidence and my judgement would be based purely on the facts of the case.

WillowTheWhisp 16-01-2008 21:53
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
The shop assistant's version of the story is that she didn't want to touch the book as her hands were not clean.

Not actually having been there I can't say who is telling the truth but if that was indeed what she did say then maybe the woman just got the wrong end of the stick.

I don't know of any reason why a Muslim would call Bible stories 'unclean'. They supposedly respect all holy books.

cashman 16-01-2008 22:06
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
its very difficult to take a press story as gospel, if it does turn out to be i will be slavering, until then i reserve opinion.:cool:

garinda 16-01-2008 23:50
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
We can't tar all Muslims because of this one silly fundamenalist cow, but would she also not have a problem stuffing a bikini in a bag, never mind any of the other non-Islamic stuff they sell at Marks and Sparks?

I think she should pack up her hijab and her burqas and go and live in Mecca. That's if they have an M & S there, with all it's associated benefits, pensions, etc.

blazey 16-01-2008 23:53
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 518070)
The shop assistant's version of the story is that she didn't want to touch the book as her hands were not clean.

Not actually having been there I can't say who is telling the truth but if that was indeed what she did say then maybe the woman just got the wrong end of the stick.

I don't know of any reason why a Muslim would call Bible stories 'unclean'. They supposedly respect all holy books.
I imagine she is telling the truth and it has all got twisted by the media for a good story. Sounds more realistic.

BLACKBURN RAVER 17-01-2008 00:49
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 518070)
The shop assistant's version of the story is that she didn't want to touch the book as her hands were not clean.

but she would have been touching FOOD with un-clean hands whilst serving others presumably, :confused::confused:

blazey 17-01-2008 00:53
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKBURN RAVER (Post 518172)
but she would have been touching FOOD with un-clean hands whilst serving others presumably, :confused::confused:
When do staff in mars and spencers touch food with their hands? its normally in a wrapper of some sort.

I'm sure my friend once mentioned something similar to this, i'm sure she said in her family the women werent allowed to touch their holy books, only the men. It might be different in different muslim families but im pretty sure there is something about women touching holy books that they believe.

BLACKBURN RAVER 17-01-2008 00:55
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518175)
When do staff in mars and spencers touch food with their hands? its normally in a wrapper of some sort. .

and a book has got a protective plastic/celophane coating!!!

wheres the diff :confused::confused:

blazey 17-01-2008 00:57
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKBURN RAVER (Post 518176)
and a book has got a protective plastic/celophane coating!!!

wheres the diff :confused::confused:
Its a religious item. I take it you aren't religious at all?

Like how you cant touch the host with anything but your tongue if your catholic i guess. Just one of the rules. She doesn't mean literally unclean I imagine, just metaphorically speaking.

BLACKBURN RAVER 17-01-2008 01:02
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518177)
Its a religious item. I take it you aren't religious at all?

Like how you cant touch the host with anything but your tongue if your catholic i guess. Just one of the rules. She doesn't mean literally unclean I imagine, just metaphorically speaking.

c of e but i dont necessarily follow it,

blazey 17-01-2008 01:08
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKBURN RAVER (Post 518179)
c of e but i dont necessarily follow it,
well are there not things in the C of E that you cant touch or say or do? things that may seem a bit odd to someone from a different religion or no reason at all?

I mean, catholics eating what they feel is the body and blood of christ must be odd to someone, and maybe its because catholics have odd ideas that i'm willing to understand someone elses odd ideas too. I dont know.

BLACKBURN RAVER 17-01-2008 01:14
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518181)
well are there not things in the C of E that you cant touch or say or do? things that may seem a bit odd to someone from a different religion or no reason at all? .
wouldnt know, as i said i dont follow religion, but if i did and i worked in a shop, i would do what i was paid to do and serve them the products they wanted regardless of my faith and beleifs or theirs for that matter !!

blazey 17-01-2008 01:23
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKBURN RAVER (Post 518183)
wouldnt know, as i said i dont follow religion, but if i did and i worked in a shop, i would do what i was paid to do and serve them the products they wanted regardless of my faith and beleifs or theirs for that matter !!
I dont know what i'd do to be honest. The problem wouldn't have caused that much of an issue really. It'd be much worse if for example a jehovas witness doctor refused to give anyone a blood transfusion ust because of their own beliefs! Same problems occur when catholic nurses/doctors refuse abortions and stuff like that. This is very trivial and its hardly going to become a widescale problem. I think its only being made such a big deal of because it was a muslim girl to be truthful.

So many white people are racist and have problems with foreigners to the point of it being close to xenophobia yet its never in the media, only when we feel the person is playing the race card and then it looks bad on the victim still. Infact the only thing i can ever recall us caring about in regards to race hate from whites and that was when prince harry wore the nazi costume, and that was more likely due to the fact he was a royal, not the costume.

The media is just loads of scandal and lies most of the time. I dont think it matters if she refused to touch the book or not, the main point is is that if she refused to because of her religious beliefs, she did it out of respect for a religion native to our own country, not her own, and I think its nice that she could show that kind of respect even if it caused a problem.

I've also found that it seems they cant touch the quran or read it whilst they are menstruating, perhaps this is what she meant...

BLACKBURN RAVER 17-01-2008 01:33
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
well your going on about religion blah di blah, iv'e allways read/heard/ been told, that muslim woman were not allowed to work, and that it was their place to be at home whilst the man went out to work !!

if so and she was that religious....WHY is she working ?? :confused:

just a thought...cant pick and choose as to what you beleive in its all or nothing surely !!!

blazey 17-01-2008 01:39
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKBURN RAVER (Post 518187)
well your going on about religion blah di blah, iv'e allways read/heard/ been told, that muslim woman were not allowed to work, and that it was their place to be at home whilst the man went out to work !!

if so and she was that religious....WHY is she working ?? :confused:

just a thought...cant pick and choose as to what you beleive in its all or nothing surely !!!
Well as with the english who were also against women working things change but as far as 'english' religions go, mainly denominations of christianity, the teachings dont just change completely over time, and not all aspects change in the same equal manner. Some traditions are kept and some arent.

For example, catholics are considering homosexual priests now, but abortion is still not acceptable. I think its an equality thing mainly. Men allow and accept women to work, particularly as their are fundamental rights that are protected, but some beliefs are just kept and not touching a holy book is one of them, its hardly hurt anyone!

BLACKBURN RAVER 17-01-2008 01:39
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
i stand corrected !!!

god i must be bored and an insomniac


The work of women

blazey 17-01-2008 01:40
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKBURN RAVER (Post 518187)
well your going on about religion blah di blah, iv'e allways read/heard/ been told, that muslim woman were not allowed to work, and that it was their place to be at home whilst the man went out to work !!

if so and she was that religious....WHY is she working ?? :confused:

just a thought...cant pick and choose as to what you beleive in its all or nothing surely !!!
Also why do you bother saying your a C of E if you dont know about the religion? Fair enough to not follow it word for word but to not know restrictions entailed in the religion seems a bit strange! Though I'm saying that from a catholic perspective who doesnt necessarily follow word for word but still likes to have the faith and knows what the religions all about.

blazey 17-01-2008 01:43
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Anyway I am going to go now, i have a lecture at 9am :(

BLACKBURN RAVER 17-01-2008 01:44
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518190)
Also why do you bother saying your a C of E if you dont know about the religion? Fair enough to not follow it word for word but to not know restrictions entailed in the religion seems a bit strange! Though I'm saying that from a catholic perspective who doesnt necessarily follow word for word but still likes to have the faith and knows what the religions all about.

because that it what i have been brought up as, i used to go to church untill i started growing up and it kinda left me !!! im not saying i dont know anything just not fully so im not going to start harping on about it....

panther 17-01-2008 10:17
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
what a load of b*ll**ks!!

what next they wont touch bacon at the checkout at asda?.......or as that one already been done:rolleyes:

WillowTheWhisp 17-01-2008 11:57
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518184)

The media is just loads of scandal and lies most of the time. I dont think it matters if she refused to touch the book or not, the main point is is that if she refused to because of her religious beliefs, she did it out of respect for a religion native to our own country, not her own, and I think its nice that she could show that kind of respect even if it caused a problem.

I've also found that it seems they cant touch the quran or read it whilst they are menstruating, perhaps this is what she meant...

You seem to be the only person who has got hold of the right end of this particular stick Blazey.

In her eyes it wouldn't be the book that was unclean. She was showing respect to the holy book by not wishing to defile it.Not because her hands were mucky dirty but because for some reason she deemed herself to be unclean. Perhaps she had just previously packed that bikini Garinda referred to, or perhaps she was menstruating.

Whatever the reason, it was herself she regarded as not worthy of handling the religious book.

The customer herself admitted that the woman didn't actually say to her that the book was unclean. She heard the word being said (a word which normally is only used to refer to symbolic cleanliness) and then she saw the hijab and drew her own conclusions that a Muslim was calling the Bible unclean. I don't believe that the Bible is seen by Muslims as anything unclean but rather as something to be revered and respected which is exactly what she was doing.

We demand that Muslims show respect to other religions and then when one does she is hauled over the coals for it and accused of being racist and offensive. :rolleyes:

BLACKBURN RAVER 17-01-2008 12:32
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 518244)
You seem to be the only person who has got hold of the right end of this particular stick Blazey.

In her eyes it wouldn't be the book that was unclean. She was showing respect to the holy book by not wishing to defile it.Not because her hands were mucky dirty but because for some reason she deemed herself to be unclean. Perhaps she had just previously packed that bikini Garinda referred to, or perhaps she was menstruating.

Whatever the reason, it was herself she regarded as not worthy of handling the religious book.

The customer herself admitted that the woman didn't actually say to her that the book was unclean. She heard the word being said (a word which normally is only used to refer to symbolic cleanliness) and then she saw the hijab and drew her own conclusions that a Muslim was calling the Bible unclean. I don't believe that the Bible is seen by Muslims as anything unclean but rather as something to be revered and respected which is exactly what she was doing.

We demand that Muslims show respect to other religions and then when one does she is hauled over the coals for it and accused of being racist and offensive. :rolleyes:

it wasn't a holy book ie: a bible....it was a book of bible stories !!!

BIG differance !!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Alvin the chipmunk 17-01-2008 12:50
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Disgusting behaviour. Absolutely disgusting. Despite the friendly embracement of multi-cultural society Britain has given people, there are stiil idiots like this about. No wonder racial tension is so much of a problem.

Can you imagine if a Christian had said the same think to someone purchasing a book of a different faith?

Appalled. :mad:

garinda 17-01-2008 12:53
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Mrs Friday, 69, said: “The young lady was absolutely fine with the other stuff I was buying but when it came to the Bible she refused to touch it and asked me to put it in the shopping bag myself.

"She turned to another worker and said something about being unclean and at first I thought she was referring to a skirt I was buying and that there was a mark on it. Then she asked me to put the Bible in my shopping bag myself.

Muslim M&S worker 'refused to touch Bible' - Telegraph

cashman 17-01-2008 13:58
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 518087)
its very difficult to take a press story as gospel, if it does turn out to be i will be slavering, until then i reserve opinion.:cool:
like i said,seems to be another load of cobblers from the press, n the gullible thrive on it.:rolleyes:

Darwenred1968 17-01-2008 14:05
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Idiotic Britain!! They don't allow gambling but do the lottery? They are against alcohol but sell it in their corner shops? And their women are treated as second class citizens!! Equality is the answer.

Doug 17-01-2008 14:43
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by panther (Post 518212)
what a load of b*ll**ks!!

what next they wont touch bacon at the checkout at asda?.......or as that one already been done:rolleyes:

Karma sent..............:)

Doug 17-01-2008 14:45
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 518262)
Mrs Friday, 69, said: “The young lady was absolutely fine with the other stuff I was buying but when it came to the Bible she refused to touch it and asked me to put it in the shopping bag myself.

"She turned to another worker and said something about being unclean and at first I thought she was referring to a skirt I was buying and that there was a mark on it. Then she asked me to put the Bible in my shopping bag myself.

Muslim M&S worker 'refused to touch Bible' - Telegraph

Did you write that yourself darling..................:D

WillowTheWhisp 17-01-2008 17:59
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
She turned to another worker and said something about being unclean
She didn't say the book was unclean. She was showing respect to what she saw as a holy book. It had the word 'Bible' on the cover. There was a picture of it in the daily paper.

This poor girl is being slagged off because she treated a Christian book with the same respect she would show to the Koran. IMO she is owed an apology.

pipinfort 17-01-2008 18:05
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by panther (Post 518212)
what a load of b*ll**ks!!

what next they wont touch bacon at the checkout at asda?.......or as that one already been done:rolleyes:
LOL, to be honest, YES.......quite recently!!!!
religion=the root of many a conflct

panther 17-01-2008 18:16
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
aye these gods have a lot to answer for:rolleyes:

Mancie 17-01-2008 18:21
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
This is a link to a "story" from the Daily Mail... how could anyone possibly take seriously anything this "newspaper" reports????

katex 17-01-2008 19:07
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancie (Post 518394)
This is a link to a "story" from the Daily Mail... how could anyone possibly take seriously anything this "newspaper" reports????
Whatever the deep meaning of this incident Mancie, the customer could only take it on 'face value' at the time, and the assistant was out of order in allowing 'any' type of feeling/verbal diarrhoea to this article going through her till, and could have been done in a more professional way, not in front of the customer; religious drama queen's do not fit into our everyday shopping !

This lady was obviously distressed due the fact that the scene was played out in front of her, and she had not the courage to challenge the assistant at the time.. me, I would have gone bananas !!

When accepting this job with M & S she should have been honest with her employees that there were specific items of their products (at certain times of the month :rolleyes:) when she would have difficulty serving a customer, therefore, she was dishonest accepting the job, and should be offered her P45 on the spot !

cashman 17-01-2008 19:15
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
would she be aware they sold bibles katex? i sure as hell wasn,t:confused: whilst i see the sense in what ya say, its hard to think they would list every product on an interview.

Bagpuss 17-01-2008 19:33
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 518384)
IMO she is owed an apology.
This could only happen in England, IMHO it's what she would want to happen, sympathy when she should be sacked.

katex 17-01-2008 19:57
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 518423)
would she be aware they sold bibles katex? i sure as hell wasn,t:confused: whilst i see the sense in what ya say, its hard to think they would list every product on an interview.
Oh Cashy ... dear, oh dear ! It's how you would put a question on interview .. like "Have you any prejudices on selling products to our customers that may cause you some concern ?" Sure Marks have this type of question in their interview guide, etc. Anyway, to me, that is not the issue .. the issue is the attitude she created at the till and in earshot of the customer .. could have been handled differently ( like excused herself for a moment to have a word with her supervisor and excuse that she had to leave the till for other reasons !) Like a veggie commenting on a person buying beefburgers ... you do not do it !

People are strange, bet this assistant loved every minute of it. A chance to show her religious superiority.

WillowTheWhisp 17-01-2008 20:35
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
It wasn't a prejudice! It was her showing respect for the flippin Bible! Something which is rarely done in Christian society so we just aren't used to it. It probably never occurred to the poor girl that the woman would take offence.

And no, I had no idea that M&S sold Bibles either. I'm sure they don't list all their products when they interview prospective staff.

katex 17-01-2008 21:10
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 518477)
It wasn't a prejudice! It was her showing respect for the flippin Bible! Something which is rarely done in Christian society so we just aren't used to it. It probably never occurred to the poor girl that the woman would take offence.

And no, I had no idea that M&S sold Bibles either. I'm sure they don't list all their products when they interview prospective staff.
I am talking with my business head on here Willow, not 'respect' for stories from the Bible, etc.

You should not air your opinions in front of the customers no matter what, therefore jeopardising the sale of certain goods by affecting the feelings of the customer, and derogatory to the company that is paying your wages at the end of the day.. that is all there is to it, no matter what the issue is. ! That is way the Marks will view this incident irrespective. Could have been that they were selling Enid Blyton books again, and the assistant refused to handle it to what, in the past, the powers that be considered it bad grammar and not good for young children to read.

I do not believe that the assistant was so naive not to understand that her additude would not upset the customer in a Christian country. If she is, then needs a lesson in good manners.

blazey 17-01-2008 21:24
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
It'd be wrong to sack someone because she wouldn't touch something. What if you work in a pet shop and your quite happy to serve on the till but when your asked to handle a rat or a snake or something you fear you refuse? Shoudl you deserve to be sacked just because you dont want to touch something? Even more so when its actually out of RESPECT for something?!

Nobody in their right mind would sack her for it because she'll be dragging them through court cases for breaching her rights and it wont be pleasant. M&S arent going to suffer economically because of this instance, so why should they bother sacking her? Anyone been put off shopping at m&s because someone refused to touch a bible? Very very unlikely

Lilly 17-01-2008 21:27
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518509)
It'd be wrong to sack someone because she wouldn't touch something. What if you work in a pet shop and your quite happy to serve on the till but when your asked to handle a rat or a snake or something you fear you refuse? Shoudl you deserve to be sacked just because you dont want to touch something? Even more so when its actually out of RESPECT for something
I agree with Katex, she shouldn't have said anything to the customer, just politely excused herself and asked another member of staff to take over the till.

blazey 17-01-2008 21:29
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 518500)
I am talking with my business head on here Willow, not 'respect' for stories from the Bible, etc.

You should not air your opinions in front of the customers no matter what, therefore jeopardising the sale of certain goods by affecting the feelings of the customer, and derogatory to the company that is paying your wages at the end of the day.. that is all there is to it, no matter what the issue is. ! That is way the Marks will view this incident irrespective. Could have been that they were selling Enid Blyton books again, and the assistant refused to handle it to what, in the past, the powers that be considered it bad grammar and not good for young children to read.

I do not believe that the assistant was so naive not to understand that her additude would not upset the customer in a Christian country. If she is, then needs a lesson in good manners.
We cant really be classed a religious country in my opinion anymore either. The majority of white people dont follow religion like they used to and unfortunatly the 'christian card' is only really played when people think someones playing the 'muslim card'. Its stupid. We're a secular country. We are also meant to welcome everyone and accept their faith, its why people come to england, because we're alledgedly accepting and equal opportunities and all that. Truth is we aren't, but we shouldn't claim to be a religious country when we arent. Its almost as stupid as living an 'american dream.'

blazey 17-01-2008 21:30
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilly (Post 518512)
I agree with Katex, she shouldn't have said anything to the customer, just politely excused herself and asked another member of staff to take over the till.
I'm assuming she told the customer she cant touch the bible with 'dirty hands', which is what all the fuss is about. Even if she had excused herself the story would still be manipulated and be recieving the same affect.

Basically this jus shows how influencial the media is on people, and quite frankly I think its scary.

katex 17-01-2008 21:34
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
[QUOTE=blazey;518509]It'd be wrong to sack someone because she wouldn't touch something. What if you work in a pet shop and your quite happy to serve on the till but when your asked to handle a rat or a snake or something you fear you refuse? E]

Any company like Marks will surely have job descriptions, and if you are asked to do a task not in your job description, then every right to complain,
so your above does not quite wear with me Blazey .. as would have the right to refuse.

lancsdave 17-01-2008 21:36
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518509)
What if you work in a pet shop and your quite happy to serve on the till but when your asked to handle a rat or a snake or something you fear you refuse?
Why would anyone take the job in the first place if they can't handle things like that ?

katex 17-01-2008 21:38
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilly (Post 518512)
I agree with Katex, she shouldn't have said anything to the customer, just politely excused herself and asked another member of staff to take over the till.
Thanks Lilly for your support.. they just 'aint getting it are they ?

WillowTheWhisp 17-01-2008 21:40
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 518500)

You should not air your opinions in front of the customers no matter what, therefore jeopardising the sale of certain goods by affecting the feelings of the customer, and derogatory to the company that is paying your wages at the end of the day.. that is all there is to it, no matter what the issue is. !

But she wasn't airing an opinion. She was showing her respect for the book and the customer by not wishing to defile it. She was the one unclean (for reasons we know not) NOT the flippin book!!!

lancsdave 17-01-2008 21:40
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518513)
because we're alledgedly accepting and equal opportunities and all that.
So are most developed countries, yet it's a damn sight more difficult to get in to them. Unless of course there are other reasons they come here with no money, no job and nowhere to live :rolleyes:

Lilly 17-01-2008 21:42
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 518522)
Thanks Lilly for your support.. they just 'aint getting it are they ?

LOL. No, it seems not. :)

Lilly 17-01-2008 21:43
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 518525)
But she wasn't airing an opinion. She was showing her respect for the book and the customer by not wishing to defile it. She was the one unclean (for reasons we know not) NOT the flippin book!!!
She still shouldn't have said anything about unclean to the customer, just politely excused herself.

blazey 17-01-2008 21:48
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Anyone who has worked on a till will know that you cant just leave the till, you have to call someone else, and another employee would probably be confused and ask her what the problem is anyway and the customer will still have been made uncomfortable. As a catholic I dont see the problem in her telling the customer she couldn't touch the book. Anyone with any intelligence would be able to listen and understand why the woman couldnt touch the book.

Maybe its the customers fault for not bothering to listen. Maybe she should just go to asda instead and use the self serve tills. Problem solved.

WillowTheWhisp 17-01-2008 21:52
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Look at something similar but on a practical rather than spiritual level.

Imagine you go into a shop to make several purchases. One of the items you wish to buy is a spotless white tablecloth. The shop assistant has just been weighing out 5lb of spuds and has soil on her hands. She could simply pick up your table cloth and get dirty fingerprints on it but what the heck it's her job and she's supposed to put the thing in a bag for you. Or she could ask you to put it in a bag yourself as she doesn't wish to mark it with her grubby hands. You can see the soil on her hands, you understand what she means so you thank her for being considerate.

Now look at the possibility where there isn't a mucky spud in sight but this young lass knows she has sweaty hands and fears she could leave a nasty greasy mark on your tablecloth. She asks you to put it in a bag yourself but you see no reason why she shouldn't do it. You catch the word 'greasy' or 'sweaty' and are not sure what she means but instead of asking you grudgingly put the cloth in the bag - but not having queried why you mull over this later and it becomes a grievance that the girl perhaps called you something insulting and made you serve yourself. Suddenly this shop assistant whose only concern was not to mark your lovely white table cloth with her sweaty, greasy hands has become a nasty insolent individual who wouldn't do her job properly, has insulted you and deserves to be sacked.

katex 17-01-2008 21:54
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 518525)
But she wasn't airing an opinion. She was showing her respect for the book and the customer by not wishing to defile it. She was the one unclean (for reasons we know not) NOT the flippin book!!!
Well that is the 'excuse' that is being 'spun' and put forward Willow, however, . like the scarecrow, change yer head and think commercial.

blazey 17-01-2008 21:57
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Why does this have to be thought of with a business head? Business doesn't come into peoples personal feelings and beliefs. There'd be just as much fuss if this had been a school girl.

What would have happened if it had been a catholic refusing to touch the qu'ran? The muslims wouldn't be going mad, they'd understand and think it brilliant that it can be respected by everyone in such a way, and if they took it badly we'd be causing such a huge fuss about it and voting BNP.

This thread disgusts me so i'm not even going to reply again to it.

WillowTheWhisp 17-01-2008 21:57
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
I think this misunderstanding is because we are not used to the idea of showing deference and respect to a book. I think Jews would understand it because they have the same sort of attitude towards the scrolls read in a synagogue. They have special pointer things to touch them with so they don't use their fingers.

The customer herself actually says that she heard the girls say the word unclean but at first didn't know what she meant and then saw her headdress and the Bible and drew a conclusion.

katex 17-01-2008 22:00
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518536)
Anyone with any intelligence would be able to listen and understand why the woman couldnt touch the book.

Maybe its the customers fault for not bothering to listen. Maybe she should just go to asda instead and use the self serve tills. Problem solved.
AND .. that is exactly what this lady is probably going to do the next time .. losing busines for M & S !!

I would not understand why this woman would not be able to touch the book Blazey (just paper and print).. being an avid atheist .. so guess my IQ is about 78 at mo. :D

lancsdave 17-01-2008 22:00
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518536)
Maybe she should just go to asda instead and use the self serve tills. Problem solved.
Asda don't stock the M&S First Bible Stories book

WillowTheWhisp 17-01-2008 22:01
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
The title of this thread should actually be 'unclean muslim refuses to touch Bible'

Lilly 17-01-2008 22:03
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518536)
Anyone who has worked on a till will know that you cant just leave the till, you have to call someone else, and another employee would probably be confused and ask her what the problem is anyway and the customer will still have been made uncomfortable.
Call someone else then. Take them to one side and ask them to complete the transaction for you. Don't make a fuss in front of the customer.

katex 17-01-2008 22:04
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518545)
Why does this have to be thought of with a business head? Business doesn't come into peoples personal feelings and beliefs. There'd be just as much fuss if this had been a school girl.
Well, when I engage you as my solicitor (which I will consider, no hard feelings) think your attitude may change. :)

WillowTheWhisp 17-01-2008 22:06
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
It doesn't actually sound like she did make a fuss. She did serve the woman, just asked her to pick up the book. Calling another member of staff over to do it (which may well have caused a delay and the queue behind to become impatient) would have been making far more of a fuss.

It seems that the majority of people in this thread are so determined to find fault with the girl that they cannot even attempt to see what actually happened and why.

Lilly 17-01-2008 22:07
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 518540)
Look at something similar but on a practical rather than spiritual level.

Imagine you go into a shop to make several purchases. One of the items you wish to buy is a spotless white tablecloth. The shop assistant has just been weighing out 5lb of spuds and has soil on her hands. She could simply pick up your table cloth and get dirty fingerprints on it but what the heck it's her job and she's supposed to put the thing in a bag for you. Or she could ask you to put it in a bag yourself as she doesn't wish to mark it with her grubby hands. You can see the soil on her hands, you understand what she means so you thank her for being considerate.

Now look at the possibility where there isn't a mucky spud in sight but this young lass knows she has sweaty hands and fears she could leave a nasty greasy mark on your tablecloth. She asks you to put it in a bag yourself but you see no reason why she shouldn't do it. You catch the word 'greasy' or 'sweaty' and are not sure what she means but instead of asking you grudgingly put the cloth in the bag - but not having queried why you mull over this later and it becomes a grievance that the girl perhaps called you something insulting and made you serve yourself. Suddenly this shop assistant whose only concern was not to mark your lovely white table cloth with her sweaty, greasy hands has become a nasty insolent individual who wouldn't do her job properly, has insulted you and deserves to be sacked.
Not the same really as the examples you give feature muck that can be seen so it would be obvious to the customer why you would not wish to touch her pristine tablecloth, therefore, no offence could be taken.

WillowTheWhisp 17-01-2008 22:09
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
In my second example I purposely illustrated muck which couldn't be seen. But I wonder if you actually bothered to read it all. :bangh8:

blazey 17-01-2008 22:09
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilly (Post 518563)
Not the same really as the examples you give feature muck that can be seen so it would be obvious to the customer why you would not wish to touch her pristine tablecloth, therefore, no offence could be taken.
Are dirty hands always visible? I always seem to get make up all over myself when i've been applying it, but it blends into the skin colour on my hands and its not easy to see unless my hands are in your face.

How many people who have complained about this even care about the bible or what it means?

Lilly 17-01-2008 22:22
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518567)
Are dirty hands always visible? I always seem to get make up all over myself when i've been applying it, but it blends into the skin colour on my hands and its not easy to see unless my hands are in your face.

How many people who have complained about this even care about the bible or what it means?
Yes, I for one know what the bible means. I've been going to church on a weekly basis for 30 years so I've picked a bit of it up. :D

cashman 17-01-2008 22:49
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518545)

This thread disgusts me so i'm not even going to reply again to it.
i wish someone had give me good odds on that.:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:

blazey 17-01-2008 22:58
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilly (Post 518575)
Yes, I for one know what the bible means. I've been going to church on a weekly basis for 30 years so I've picked a bit of it up. :D
And your one person. Not only one person has blown this out of proportion, its taken many people.

katex 17-01-2008 23:03
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 518603)
And your one person. Not only one person has blown this out of proportion, its taken many people.
Yes, agree probably is out of proportion Blazey, however, still feel M & S will look at this as 'customer service' at the end of the day. Will be interesting to see which way they play this, due to all the publicity.

Goodnight everyone .. good debate ..:)

WillowTheWhisp 18-01-2008 07:24
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
The Bible means a lot to me. However, I don't physically treat it the same way a devout Muslim would treat the Koran. Mine is rather tatty with worn crumpled pages. It has colour coded highlights in pencil crayon on numerous pages with hand written notes in the margins. It tends to get plonked down anywhere in the house and sometimes I spend ages wondering where the heck I last put it. It's the written content which matters to me not the actual printed and bound volume itself.

Having said that though, I appreciate when someone else from another faith treats what is my 'holy book' with the same respect and reverence they would treat their own 'holy book' and I can understand where they are coming from in doing this - showing respect for me and my faith. For this girl to have it thrown back at her and be accused of the exact opposite of what she was doing just shows the ignorance of her accusers.

M&S actually apologised to the shopper for any distress caused before they had even investigated the incident. I personally believe it's a case of the newspapers hearing one side of a story, not checking it out fully but printing a sensational headline anyway because. as this thread shows. people just love an excuse to complain about Muslims. I find that very sad.

Gayle 18-01-2008 11:32
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 518637)
I personally believe it's a case of the newspapers hearing one side of a story, not checking it out fully but printing a sensational headline anyway because. as this thread shows. people just love an excuse to complain about Muslims. I find that very sad.

Daily Mail!!!!! Enough said!

Bagpuss 18-01-2008 11:33
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gayle (Post 518683)
Daily Mail!!!!! Enough said!
I read it in the Daily Telegraph not the Mail.

WillowTheWhisp 18-01-2008 11:52
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
It was also in the Express and that was an even worse headline. No matter what the outcome of M&S questioning their staff I doubt very much we'd ever see a headline along the lines of "Muslim shop assistant wronged by false accusation from racist grannie"

Bagpuss 18-01-2008 11:58
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 518692)
It was also in the Express and that was an even worse headline. No matter what the outcome of M&S questioning their staff I doubt very much we'd ever see a headline along the lines of "Muslim shop assistant wronged by false accusation from racist grannie"
Have you got a link to the news item that made you come to your opinion of the story because your interpretation does seem in the minority at the moment.

BLACKBURN RAVER 18-01-2008 12:00
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 518637)
The Bible means a lot to me. However, I don't physically treat it the same way a devout Muslim would treat the Koran. Mine is rather tatty with worn crumpled pages. It has colour coded highlights in pencil crayon on numerous pages with hand written notes in the margins. It tends to get plonked down anywhere in the house and sometimes I spend ages wondering where the heck I last put it. It's the written content which matters to me not the actual printed and bound volume itself.

Having said that though, I appreciate when someone else from another faith treats what is my 'holy book' with the same respect and reverence they would treat their own 'holy book' and I can understand where they are coming from in doing this - showing respect for me and my faith. For this girl to have it thrown back at her and be accused of the exact opposite of what she was doing just shows the ignorance of her accusers.

M&S actually apologised to the shopper for any distress caused before they had even investigated the incident. I personally believe it's a case of the newspapers hearing one side of a story, not checking it out fully but printing a sensational headline anyway because. as this thread shows. people just love an excuse to complain about Muslims. I find that very sad.

IT WASNT A BIBLE FFS...sorry had to shout as you dont seem to be getting this fact...it was a book of bible stories !!!! jeeeeeees...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

WillowTheWhisp 18-01-2008 13:27
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
It had the word 'Bible' on the cover. I have to go out but I'll look for the article later which quoted what the shopper said and how she drew her conclusion, which coukld quite easily have been the wrong one.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you that my opinion seems to be the minority one and I find it very sad that the majority assume that it's a Muslim snub of Christianity. :(

WillowTheWhisp 18-01-2008 13:38
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
This is the Daily Mail article where the customer says:
Quote:
She said: "I went to the till and heard the girl say it was unclean and then she got someone else to serve me.

"At first I wasn't sure what was going on and then I realised she was wearing a headdress and I clicked that the title of the book had Bible in it.

"I felt very humiliated and immediately left the store."
She heard her say something was unclean and thought at first she meant a skirt which had a mark on it - then she saw 'the headdress' and 'clicked' that the book had the word 'Bible' in the title - she drew her own conclusions. The shop assistant quite clearly did not point out that the Bible was unclean or the customer wouldn't have had any doubt what she was on about and wouldn't have needed to wonder.

cashman 18-01-2008 13:44
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagpuss (Post 518694)
Have you got a link to the news item that made you come to your opinion of the story because your interpretation does seem in the minority at the moment.
whilst i dont agree with all willow thinks on this subject, i DO think this is much ado about nothing, which the media has as usual embellished, n its brought all the rats out of the woodwork.:rolleyes:

BLACKBURN RAVER 18-01-2008 13:45
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 518747)
It had the word 'Bible' on the cover. :(
but it WASNT a bible was it ? so why refuse to touch it :confused:

ok so every newspaper that has reported this story has the word " bible " on it, now i dont know if they sell papers at marks' but if they do, would she refuse to sell the papers too !!!!

what a load of bulldung !!!

Bonnyboy 18-01-2008 13:48
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
1 Attachment(s)
Willow, I think what some people are getting at is the fact that it was not a bible.

Some are also wondering if you can give us a link to the article which has made you of the opinion that it was the M&S employee who was referring to herself as being “dirty” in some respect. :)

Margaret Pilkington 18-01-2008 13:49
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
As you say Cashy, this is all about 'nowt'...the media (it isn't just the Mail...it was reported in most of the papers) have yet again whipped up a frenzy about something that could have been quite easily sorted.....but No as usual, there has to be mud slung.
Why don't the media tell us some real news?

cashman 18-01-2008 13:50
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKBURN RAVER (Post 518762)
but it WASNT a bible was it ? so why refuse to touch it :confused:

ok so every newspaper that has reported this story has the word " bible " on it, now i dont know if they sell papers at marks' but if they do, would she refuse to sell the papers too !!!!

what a load of bulldung !!!
bible stories, if ya knew a bit more about respect for things ya would have the answer, ya sure ya aint a dingle?:D

BLACKBURN RAVER 18-01-2008 14:10
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 518766)
bible stories, if ya knew a bit more about respect for things ya would have the answer, ya sure ya aint a dingle?:D

and you know exactly what about me :confused:...dont come on here slagging me off about respecing things when you dont even know me !!! if you ever did get to know me then i would accept your words, untill then, lets not make this personal eh !! just becaue im expressing my opinion and it goes against one of your own !!!

cashman 18-01-2008 14:15
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKBURN RAVER (Post 518779)
and you know exactly what about me :confused:...dont come on here slagging me off about respecing things when you dont even know me !!! if you ever did get to know me then i would accept your words, untill then, lets not make this personal eh !! just becaue im expressing my opinion and it goes against one of your own !!!
that aint slagging ya off get real.:rolleyes:its a bit of crack hence the grin,but if that eludes you:rolleyes:

shakermaker 18-01-2008 14:16
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
I think Willow & Cashman were just making the point that the checkout bird saw the word 'Bible' and jumped to the conclusion that it was the Holy Bible and reacted accordingly.

I still believe what I said originally however. It's just a sensationalised tabloid warbling.

Gayle 18-01-2008 14:18
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
I've had a scout around the web for all the different stories about this and it would appear that it first appeared in the Telegraph and The Daily Mail - all the other papers and websites are reporting what they first read in the Mail, actually quoting that as their source in some cases.

The Mail and the Telegraph do report it slightly differently. The Mail sensationally says that she refused to serve the woman, this is clearly not the case as she was happy to serve her just not touch the book and put it into the bag. The Telegraph's wording is slightly different about the 'unclean' part and I'm tempted to agree with Willow on this one. Muslim women are seen as 'unclean' when they are menstuating therefore, she would not have wanted to touch her holy book or any other holy book at that time.

The fact that this story was first run in the Mail and Telegraph leads me to believe that the odds of the report being skewed are quite high!

yerself 18-01-2008 17:17
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gayle
The fact that this story was first run in the Mail and Telegraph leads me to believe that the odds of the report being skewed are quite high!
Let me guess, 'The Guardian' is the font of all truthfulness and knowledge.:)

cashman 18-01-2008 18:44
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKBURN RAVER (Post 518779)
and you know exactly what about me :confused:...dont come on here slagging me off about respecing things when you dont even know me !!! if you ever did get to know me then i would accept your words, untill then, lets not make this personal eh !! just becaue im expressing my opinion and it goes against one of your own !!!
don't know you at all- but that aint breaking me heart.:rolleyes: the respect i was refering to is earlier in the thread (post32) i think. i for 1 aint no bible basher, but have respect for differant religions/people, so long as it aint shoved down me throat, i said if you knew more about respect, that IS NOT slagging you off, its as you have said an opinion.if ya wanna sulk about it- tough.:rolleyes:

mr_flibble 18-01-2008 21:07
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
To be honest id take the whole story with a salt mine full of salt. It is in the end published by The Hate Mail...oops sorry i mean the Daily Mail, a paper that once supported Hitler.

blazey 18-01-2008 23:56
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_flibble (Post 518993)
To be honest id take the whole story with a salt mine full of salt. It is in the end published by The Hate Mail...oops sorry i mean the Daily Mail, a paper that once supported Hitler.
We as a country love the national holiday that hitler created and act like Nazi's for one day a year.

As for the story, its definately been manipulated to get a particular reaction, and the facts clearly are goig to have been completely different to what has been printed.

keetah992000 19-01-2008 00:09
Re: M&S Muslim Refuses To Serve 'Unclean' Bible
 
just been reading this thread and it is interesting ... however i am not bothered who was right or wrong- but am wondering if M&S still has strong Jewish roots ?


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