Council Tax
 

After hearing several people complain about 'tax tax tax' I decided to do some research.

I looked at council minutes from 1999 onwards, and tried to find out which institutions our money actually goes to.

Something I had discovered that not all people know is that our council tax is set and goes to, several different sources not just our local council. As of 2008 72% goes to county council, 15% to our local Hyndburn council, 9% to the Police Authority and 4% to the Fire Authority.

In 2003 tax to the fire authority was separated out from county council, hence reducing county council tax by £6.10 (for band A), but the new fire authority tax took £33.09 (again for band A).

For the purpose of the figures I've included the fire figures with county figures so that I can easily compare county tax before fire was taken out of it.

Since 1999 Hyndburn council tax has increased 45%
County council tax has increased 48%
The Police Authority tax has increased by 117%

Now according to the BBC and other sources, on average council tax has increased by over 100%.

People are now earning 50% more than 10 years ago, and minimum wage is changing to 60% increase since 1999 as of October 2008.

As a result of this, I think our council is pretty good with its tax compared with elsewhere as it is only increasing along with earnings and has saved money in the bank which can be used for a rainy day if the economy gets any worse.

Re: Council Tax
 

Forgot to add:

If you include Hyndburn, county, police and fire as one tax (council tax) then the increase since 1999 is 52%.

And Blackburn do not have to pay county council tax because they are allowed to decide that themselves as they are a unitary authority.

Re: Council Tax
 

Why people complain about how much they have to pay for council tax ?
why should we pay more for less services less parks less council run nursing/care homes exactly where does all the money go ? the council have a huge miscellaneous amount that appears on the annual newsletter people get with their council tax on how the money is spent, if your wanting peoples money the council should inform people of every penny spent. plus compaired to 10 years ago alot more houses have been built bringing more money for council tax yet still less services, our income hasnt risen over 50% in the last 10 years, i dont mind any of my money going towards the emergency services as i hope they will be there if i ever needed them

oops i didnt see the hyndburn bit, im not saying hyndburn in particular as i dont know what they do with their money, i was meaning my council

Re: Council Tax
 

Once again cr*p. Sloppy research.

District raised £3.5m in 1999 and now raise £5.25
Band D has gone from £148 in 1999 to £221

Both around 66%

CPI inflation is around 16% over the period.
My wage rises 2% to 3% over the period (skilled / private sector / Accy)
May wage has gone from 16,500 to 19,500 ......+18%

Gov't grant 1999 minus HRA £5.7million
Gov't grant minus Concessionary fares 2008 £9.0m

Around 65%

Elevate £45million so far
SRB, NRF, ERDF, DEFRA, CHILDRENS FUND £25million?
Council House sale £12million (saving £1m in interest to the Council per year alone) plus RTB receipts which have rocketed to over £0.6million with house price increases.

The Council that has wasted millions when you look at real figures.

PS did I mention the crises 40% budget cuts (over 3 years) to meet debts and interest payments. so we pay 66% more for 40% less... coooool

Re: Council Tax
 

117%rise and about 50% less of them on patrol and we've hardly got what you can call a polce station now, it's shut more than its open, the rise must be for all the extra fuel used when travelling from Greenbank :rolleyes:

Re: Council Tax
 

Cant remember the last time I saw a bobby on the beat. They seem just to loiter round with speed guns these days.

Re: Council Tax
 

CPI index - about 15-16%

And it was Norman Lamont that began using CPI formally known as RPIX in 1992 as the official government measure of inflation following the UK's departure from the Exchange Rate Mechanism.

Year Index That yr
1999 92.3 1.3 ..
2000 93.1 0.8 ..
2001 94.2 1.2 ..
2002 95.4 1.3 ..
2003 96.7 1.4 ..
2004 98.0 1.3 ..
2005 100.0 2.1 ..
2006 102.3 2.3 ..
2007 104.7 2.3
2008 ?107.4 2.7?

Re: Council Tax
 

Not defending the police but it has been used for all the PCSO's and Neighbourhood Policing teams which have been a success.

Re: Council Tax
 

£3.5m to £5.25m is 50%, you're 16% out.
Your 2008 figure for Band D is incorrect, and I suspect your 1999 figure is too, but I don't have them on me so I can't work out the percentage.

Take Band B:
1999: £117.84
2008: £170.84

Increase of 45%, you're 21% out.

Take Band C:
1999: 134.68
2008: 195.24

Increase of 45%, you're 21% out.

Since Band A, B, C all give 45% increase using the correct figures, I can only assume your Band D figures are incorrect.

Is it any wonder Labour had a 2% council tax rise budget with 40 uncosted parts, when they can't addup?

CPI might be 16%, but a more accurate measure is RPI which is 33%. The inflation on goods is not equal to how much wages have risen. And it was Brown in 2003 that changed to the HICP which is now renamed to CPI.

Re: Council Tax
 

I don't know where you have got the figures from that wages have increased by 50% since 1999. I have just checked and in 1999 I was earning £5.50 an hour and in 2007 I was earning £6.50 an hour (which included holiday pay) by my reckoning this is an increase of 18% (or 2.25% each year).

The figures might be correct nationally but I am sure that they are much less for Hyndburn.

Re: Council Tax
 

Just checked on this for interest, because I pay my taxes to the City of Kingston, the Province of Ontario, and the Govt. of Canada. But what I found interesting, and surprising, is that 72% of local taxes go to the County Council. Why is this? What does the County Council do locally for this whopping slice of tax revenue? The tax I pay to the City is used (or misused), in Kingston. None of it goes to the sort of equivalent of the County, which would be the Province of Ontario. What does the local council do with the money it gets? Who sets the tax rate, the local council or the county council? Are the police and the fire service controlled locally or by the county? Who is responsible for maintaining the roads and collecting the garbage?:confused::confused::confused:

Re: Council Tax
 

never heard such rubbish in my life, where ya get this from VIZ? i challenge you to produce anyone in Hyndburn who has been in the same job for the last 10 yrs and IS Earning 50% more.:rofl38::rofl38: if ya do theres a drink fer ya at the next meet yer at.

Re: Council Tax
 

We should be able to mark threads with reminders for Accyweb awards nights when they come round. Somebody remind me next year to nominate Cyfr for bravest thread of the year :D

Re: Council Tax
 

No, the BBC and national statistics websites. One example is my mum, a nurse, her pay has risen 51% in that time period

Anyone who was on the minimum wage in 1999 will be earning at least 50% more now, and they will be earning 60% more in October.

That isn't my main point however, my main point is that on average other councils have raised tax by 50% more than what Hyndburn residents are paying.

Re: Council Tax
 

Whilst I appreciate that your mother is earning 51% more in 10years, she is in a profession that has national pay scales, and also nurses are at the top end of the pay rates for this area. )I know nurses feel that they are badly paid, but in comparison with lots of the working population of Hyndburn - they are well paid).

Surely you should know that national statistics are NATIONAL, have you obtained accurate statistics for Hyndburn.

I do feel that it is very unfair to use the minimum wage as an example of wage rates be raised. In 1999 (which was first implemented on 1/04/199) the minimum wage was £3.60 per hour and is now £5.52 an hour (from 1/10/07). But what you fail to take into consideration is that the vaste majority of workers in Hyndburn have fallen behind with pay rises. The pay differential between workers who earn just above the minimum wage and the minimum wage is being eroded every year. In October when the minimum wage is increased to £5.73 (21p an hour), there will not be a corresponding increase for other low paid workers. 5 years ago my husband was earning £1.00 an hour more than minimum wage, he now earns 20p an hour more than minimum wage (he is still working for the same company doing the same job).

I appreciate what your main point is however, but why did the Telegraph say Hyndburn was the most expensive council in the country?

Re: Council Tax
 

Can't resist, would Sir Graham like to put foward his costed alternative budget for 2008/9 please

Re: Council Tax
 

Since neither of us can find percentage increases in earnings in Hyndburn and are both just using specific examples I'll try another route.

I see this "8.1% of earnings" figure from the Telegraph brandished around by Graham Jones a lot. I decided to look into it.

The Telegraph are basing their calculations off average salary (£17,842) and band D properties. I don't feel this is at all fair because most properties are not band D in Hyndburn.

If you work it out off realistic figures it is like this:
Band A: 5.6%
Band B: 6.5%

Which puts it much lower on the ladder in terms of being expensive.

I don't know if you pay less for living on your own or if you receive benefits, but take into account that a lot of people don't live on their own, which means that figure is halved.

Re: Council Tax
 

I forgot to mention, those figures are the combined numbers so Hyndburn, County, Fire and Police. The majority of that (72%) is going to and set by Lancashire County Council. I don't think they consider peoples earnings per borough either, it's just a blanket percentage rise as far as I'm aware (although if this is wrong I'm sure somebody will point it out).

Re: Council Tax
 

People living alone receive a 25% discount on their Council Tax.

Re: Council Tax
 

dont forget, that we wouldnt have council tax in the first place if Thatcher hadnt fetched out the poll tax....bloody tories fault:D

Re: Council Tax
 

The Tories introduced it but Labour didn't take it away again did they?

You can't blame the Tories for something that Labour obviously support.

I can't comment on the figures put forward by either Cyfr or G jones as I have no idea, but what I can say is that Council Tax isn't that expensive with the direct debit way of paying, and obviously the money goes to a lot of different sources that we rely on.

Currently I am exempt from Council Tax, but I have had to look into the cost of it before for someone else, and it wasn't that much at all, at least for my current house, and I live in a reasonable sized 3 bedroom terraced house in a desirable location. From what I understand houses are banded depending on different criteria, I think my house was band D. It all seemed reasonable enough to me. Definitely not excessive anyway.

Re: Council Tax
 

thats an easy thing to say when you aint paying sod all, and are not aware fully of decreased services for more money.:rolleyes:

Re: Council Tax
 

First of all I typed the figures on my laptop elsewhere and did them off the top of my head. £3.5million was a typo/best guesstimate...

Here are the accurate figures

1999/2000 (The Tories starting piont)
Net Spend £9,255,000
Government Grant (-£0.58m HRA Benefits) £5,766,000
Council Tax/other income £3,489,000
Band D £151.53 (note this level was set by the outgoing Labour admin)
Outstanding Debts £11,785,000

2006
Outstanding Debts £26million
Council House sales net profit £12million
(note £1million borrowing = annual £100,000-£120,000 debt approx on old fixed rate loans)

2008
Total Spend £15,015,000
Government Grant £9,700,000 (-£1.1 for Concessionary fares +£450,000 Council Half Bus Pass Bus Scheme scrapped)
Government Grant Net £9,050,000
Council Tax/other income £5,315,000
Outstanding Debts £16,000,000 approx after Council House sales. Interest saving £950,000 on loans payed off.

Two notes
1. On Council Tax - other income - it's hard to judge as other income varies. Council House sales have claimed to around £.5million, losses on Leisure Services £250k+ each of the last two years. Pensions have gone up.

However in 2000 the Council raised £3,489,000. In 2008 it will raise £5,315,000. My calculator says +65.64%.

This is a rough analysis bacause of the variablessuch as debt repayments have gone up before the Tories sold off Council Housing and wiped £12million off and saved £1million a year in interest payments...

.....so let's look at what people actually pay on their bill....

2. Band D - Everyone uses Band D where all homes or no homes are Band D in an area. It is 9/9ths - the full Council Tax. Band C is 8/9ths etc... Its all proportionate except Bands F G H...
BAND PROPORTION
A 6/9
B 7/9
C 8/9
E 11/9
F 13/9
G 15/9
H 18/9

Hyndburn Council Tax

1999/2000 - Band D 151.53 (This was set by Labour in Feb to start April and the Tories took over May)
2000/2001 - Band D - £151.53 (Band C 3/9th) Band A £101.02
2001 - Band D - £163.50
2002 - Band D - £168.08
2003 - Band D - £174.63
2004 - Band D - £181.44
2005 - Band D - £190.28
(don't have to hand 2006/2007)
2008/2009 - Band D - £221.?? Band A is 147.50

(9 budgets, 1 Labour Budget / 8 Tory budgets - £151.53/£221 = +68.56%)
* Band A works out obviously at 68% as well

3. RPI v CPI???????? 37% or 16%
Norman Lamont (Tory) introduced CPI (known as RPIX) in 1992. My wage rise is set by it. Interest rates and Government/Business policy is set by it. Everybody uses it as it's more accurate. Only corrupt politicians misquote using RPI to 'look good'. IF RPI (37%) was used I would be around 15-20% poorer that 1997. Obviously completely untrue and why no-one uses RPI. It bears little relation to the economy or incomes and it was introduced by a Tory, so let's take the politics out of that one Cyfr.

4. Daily Telegraph Study
As above. Band A or Band D it is the same %. More importantly The Daily Telegraph used Band D (not that it mattered) for all authorities as this is the Full (9/9ths) Council Tax. Other authorities in Lancashire with identical County Council and Police charges are much cheaper.

5. Lets not forget the Conservatives have had to admit in their budgets they have had to cut services by 40% between 2004-2008 - Amazing give the income they have had.

And the Council was so bankrupt in 2003 Ian Ormerod had to dismiss/pay off all senior management and begin a huge redundancy programme so there was enough money to pay the remaining workers. So that's another round of cuts not mentioned... no wonder people get up and say .. enough is enough.. people need to know how bad it is...

6. The Council has been massively funded by Govt.

+70% in the basic grant.
+£12million SRB
+£3.4million ERDF
+£7million NRF
+£45million so far ELEVATE (The Council tax payer previously paid for Housing refurbishments)
+£2million Lancashire Childrens Fund
+£1.2million Home Office Funding
+£1million DEFRA
+£3.9million is (flogging off the family silver) asset sales given to the Council prior to the Tories (next to nothing left BTW)
+Lottery - Council given direct funding for anything from the Lottery £1.5million rising
+£7.5million (over last 3 years) Gordon Brown handout for ANY capital expenditure the Council wants (this is why we have stopped borrowing - heaven help us if a) GB pulls the plug on this b) DavidC pulls the plug on this
+£4million Bonus Revenue fund from Gordon Brown this year and the next 3.
+£22million LEGI Fund Bburn/Hyndburn/Burnley
+£0.6million per year Council House sales and rising

....there will be more.... this is what I can remember

Also the Council has benefited from
+£35million to do up Council Houses
+£18million 2x Health Centres (I put that because Conservatives at the last election claimed they built them)
+£1.2million Concessionary fares
+ The College.... and on and on.....

I hope you realise your own political bias when you say Which puts it much lower on the ladder in terms of being expensive.

You can see how much is being wasted. It is the most expensive Council in Britain and as Carlsberg would put it ... probably the worst...!

Re: Council Tax
 

First of all I typed the figures on my laptop elsewhere and did them off the top of my head. £3.5million was a typo/best guesstimate...

Here are the accurate figures

1999
Net Spend £9,255,000
Government Grant (-£0.58m HRA Benefits) £5,766,000
Council Tax/other income £3,489,000
Band D £141.68
Outstanding Debts £11,785,000

2006
Outstanding Debts £26million
Council House sales net profit £12million
(note £1million borrowing = annual £100,000-£120,000 debt approx on old fixed rate loans)

2008
Total Spend £15,015,000
Government Grant £9,700,000 (-£1.1 for Concessionary fares +£450,000 Council Half Bus Pass Bus Scheme scrapped)
Government Grant Net £9,050,000
Council Tax/other income £5,315,000
Outstanding Debts £16,000,000 approx after Council House sales. Interest saving £950,000 on loans payed off.

Two notes
1. On Council Tax - other income - it's hard to judge as other income varies. Council House sales have claimed to around £.5million, losses on Leisure Services £250k+ each of the last two years. Pensions have gone up.

However in 2000 the Council raised £3,489,000. In 2008 it will raise £5,315,000. My calculator says +65.64%.

This is a rough analysis bacause of the variablessuch as debt repayments have gone up before the Tories sold off Council Housing and wiped £12million off and saved £1million a year in interest payments...

.....so let's look at what people actually pay on their bill....

2. Band D - Everyone uses Band D where all homes or no homes are Band D in an area. It is 9/9ths - the full Council Tax. Band C is 8/9ths etc... Its all proportionate except Bands F G H...
BAND PROPORTION
A 6/9
B 7/9
C 8/9
E 11/9
F 13/9
G 15/9
H 18/9

Hyndburn Council Tax

2000/2001 - Band D - £151.53 (Band C 3/9th) Band A £101.02
2001 - Band D - £163.50
2002 - Band D - £168.08
2003 - Band D - £174.63
2004 - Band D - £181.44
2005 - Band D - £190.28
(don't have to hand 2006/2007)
2008/2009 - Band D - £221.?? Band A is 147.50

(9 budgets, 1 Labour Budget / 8 Tory budgets - £151.53/£221 = +68.56%)
* Band A works out obviously at 68% as well

3. RPI v CPI???????? 37% or 16%
Norman Lamont (Tory) introduced CPI (known as RPIX) in 1992. My wage rise is set by it. Interest rates and Government/Business policy is set by it. Everybody uses it as it's more accurate. Only corrupt politicians misquote using RPI to 'look good'. IF RPI (37%) was used I would be around 15-20% poorer that 1997. Obviously completely untrue and why no-one uses RPI. It bears little relation to the economy or incomes and it was introduced by a Tory, so let's take the politics out of that one Cyfr.

4. Daily Telegraph Study
As above. Band A or Band D it is the same %. More importantly The Daily Telegraph used Band D (not that it mattered) for all authorities as this is the Full (9/9ths) Council Tax. Other authorities in Lancashire with identical County Council and Police charges are much cheaper.

5. Lets not forget the Conservatives have had to admit in their budgets they have had to cut services by 40% between 2004-2008 - Amazing give the income they have had.

And the Council was so bankrupt in 2003 Ian Ormerod had to dismiss/pay off all senior management and begin a huge redundancy programme so there was enough money to pay the remaining workers. So that's another round of cuts not mentioned... no wonder people get up and say .. enough is enough.. people need to know how bad it is...

6. The Council has been massively funded by Govt.

+70% in the basic grant.
+£12million SRB
+£3.4million ERDF
+£7million NRF
+£45million so far ELEVATE (The Council tax payer previously paid for Housing refurbishments)
+£2million Lancashire Childrens Fund
+£1.2million Home Office Funding
+£1million DEFRA
+£3.9million is (flogging off the family silver) asset sales given to the Council prior to the Tories (next to nothing left BTW)
+Lottery - Council given direct funding for anything from the Lottery £1.5million rising
+£7.5million (over last 3 years) Gordon Brown handout for ANY capital expenditure the Council wants (this is why we have stopped borrowing - heaven help us if a) GB pulls the plug on this b) DavidC pulls the plug on this
+£4million Bonus Revenue fund from Gordon Brown this year and the next 3.
+£22million LEGI Fund Bburn/Hyndburn/Burnley
+£0.6million per year Council House sales and rising

....there will be more.... this is what I can remember

Also the Council has benefited from
+£35million to do up Council Houses
+£18million 2x Health Centres (I put that because Conservatives at the last election claimed they built them)
+£1.2million Concessionary fares
+ The College.... and on and on.....

I hope you realise your own political bias when you say Which puts it much lower on the ladder in terms of being expensive.

You can see how much is being wasted. It is the most expensive Council in Britain and as Carlsberg would put it ... probably the worst...!

Re: Council Tax
 

Correction:
The final Council Tax for 08/09
The Council’s Precept for 2008/09 is therefore an increase of 4.95% with a Band D equivalent rate for 2008/09 of £219.65.

My calculator says an increase from 2000 to 2008 of 68.99%

Re: Council Tax
 

Re: Council Tax
 

"Here are the accurate figures" Give me a break!

£3,489,000 to £5,315,000 is an increase of 52.34% not 68% like you claim.

Band D 1999: £151.53
Band D 2008: £219.65 (as noted by your correction)
This is a 45% increase not 68%

As a matter of fact it DOES matter which band you use to compare with salaries.

In Hyndburn 73.45% of people live in Band A(59.66%) and B(13.79%) compared with just 7.51% who live in band D. How is it fair to compare an average wage with a band that is out of the pay grade of most in the borough?

You are completely incompetent when it comes to monetary figures, no wonder you won't publish your budget. You are no way fit to run the council.

I'd advise you to get some new batteries for your calculator.

Re: Council Tax
 

Apology Cyfr. Your are right I am wrong. The figures are correct but my % are wrong, calculator went AWOL.

However Band A has nothing to do with it. It is just 6/9ths and no-one uses it as far as I am aware for recording purposes.

Re: Council Tax
 

Thank-you for the apology but I doubt it really has anything to do with your calculator. Much more to do with the numbers you put in and how you put them in, because using your 'method' of percentages I also got your incorrect 68% figure using a working calculator.

Band A has a lot to do with it. If average earnings are £17k you can't compare that with band D property which is only 7.5% of Hyndburn. You have to compare it with what's happening in reality, in that most people will be paying band A and B rates not band D.

An Apology to Cyfr - 2 main headline figures wrong
 

Don't slag me off for an error. I apologise to you and others. A lot of figures to digest. All I am after is the truth - I don't mislead people and I am not incompetent. It took a lot to pull this figures together as records are scattered all over. As you found when you pulled some dodgy figures out.

I appreciate you pointing out I had miscalculated the %. There was a couple more errors as well. Band C is 8/9th not 6/9ths as as correctly stated lower. Don't give me maths lessons when you state 6/9s is different to 9/9ths in % increase terms. Well the Council adds 4.95% it does so across the board.

Here are the accurate figures mark 2 (only % have changed)

1999
Net Spend £9,255,000
Government Grant (-£0.58m HRA Benefits) £5,766,000
Council Tax/other income £3,489,000
Band D £141.68
Outstanding Debts £11,785,000

2006
Outstanding Debts £26million
Council House sales net profit £12million
(note £1million borrowing = annual £100,000-£120,000 debt approx on old fixed rate loans at 10%+)

2008
Total Spend £15,015,000
Government Grant £9,700,000 (-£1.1 for Concessionary fares +£450,000 Council Half Bus Pass Bus Scheme scrapped)
Government Grant Net £9,050,000
Council Tax/other income £5,315,000
Outstanding Debts £16,000,000 approx after Council House sales. Interest saving £950,000 on loans payed off.

Notes
1. On Council Tax - other income - it's hard to judge as other income varies. Council House sales have claimed to around £.5million, losses on Leisure Services £250k+ each of the last two years. Pensions have gone up.

However in 2000 the Council raised £3,489,000. In 2008 it will raise £5,315,000 in local taxes. My calculator says +52.33% (not 65%).

This is a rough analysis because of the variables such as debt repayments have gone up before the Tories sold off Council Housing and wiped £12million off saving £1million a year in interest payments...

.... what's actually on their CT bill....

2. Band D - Everyone uses Band D where all homes or no homes are Band D in an area. It is 9/9ths - the full Council Tax. Band C is 8/9ths etc... Its all proportionate except Bands F G H...
BAND PROPORTION
A 6/9
B 7/9
C 8/9
E 11/9
F 13/9
G 15/9
H 18/9

Hyndburn Council Tax

2000/2001 - Band D - £151.53 (Band C 8/9th)
2001 - Band D - £163.50
2002 - Band D - £168.08
2003 - Band D - £174.63
2004 - Band D - £181.44
2005 - Band D - £190.28
(don't have to hand 2006/2007)
2008/2009 - Band D - £219.00 =

9 budgets, 1 Labour Budget / 8 Tory budgets - £151.53/£219.?? = +44.95%

3. RPI v CPI???????? 37% or 16%
Norman Lamont (Tory) introduced CPI (known as RPIX) in 1992. Interest rates and Government/Business policy is set by it. My wage rise is set by it.Everybody uses it as it's more accurate. Only corrupt politicians misquote using RPI to 'look good'. IF RPI (37%) was used I would be around 15-20% poorer that 1997. Obviously completely untrue and why no-one uses RPI.

4. Daily Telegraph Study
As above. Band A or Band D it is the same %. More importantly The Daily Telegraph used Band D (not that it mattered) for all authorities as this is the Full (9/9ths) Council Tax. Other authorities in Lancashire with identical County Council and Police charges are much cheaper.

5. The Conservatives have cut services by 40% between 2004-2008 -

And the Council was so bankrupt in 2003 Ian Ormerod had to dismiss/pay off all senior management and begin a huge redundancy programme so there was enough money to pay the remaining workers. Another lot of cuts not mentioned...

6. The Council has been massively funded by Govt.
This has paid for services the Council, was already or may have provided otherwise, therefore making savings

+70% in the basic grant.
+£12million SRB
+£3.4million ERDF
+£7million NRF
+£45million so far ELEVATE (The Council tax payer previously paid for Housing refurbishments)
+£2million Lancashire Childrens Fund
+£1.2million Home Office Funding
+£1million DEFRA
+£3.9million is (flogging off the family silver) asset sales given to the Council prior to the Tories (next to nothing left BTW)
+Lottery - Council given direct funding for anything from the Lottery £1.5million rising
+£7.5million (over last 3 years) Gordon Brown handout for ANY capital expenditure the Council wants (this is why we have stopped borrowing - heaven help us if a) GB pulls the plug on this b) DavidC pulls the plug on this
+£4million Bonus Revenue fund from Gordon Brown this year and the next 3.
+£22million LEGI Fund Bburn/Hyndburn/Burnley
+£0.6million per year Council House sales and rising

....there will be more.... this is what I can remember

Also the Council has benefited from
+£35million to do up Council Houses
+£18million 2x Health Centres (I put that because Conservatives at the last election claimed they built them)
+£1.2million Concessionary fares
+ The College.... and on and on.....

You can see how much is being wasted. It is the most expensive Council in Britain & probably the worst given it is so well funded...

Re: Council Tax
 

Well you can carry on the insults... I apologise... I don't know how I ended up there because in 2006 I had the figure down as 34% from 2000.

The point remains, Council Tax is way in excess of inflation as ordinary people know inflation. Wages. Your 50% wage rise figure is wrong. The use of RPI not right.

Re: Council Tax
 

well i have digested this lot n all you have acheived for me,is to demonstrate that this is a personal crusade/ego trip, i dont think you are remotely interested in Hyndburn.:rolleyes:

Re: An Apology to Cyfr - 2 main headline figures wrong
 

Which of my figures are incorrect? I never stated that any band was different to another in terms of % increase. I always said every band has gone up 45%, which is the correct figure.

It is not the most expensive council in Britain when you actually look at the figure you quote (the 8.1%). If everyone was in a Band D and had a house over £300k and Hyndburn still had an average income of £17k then I would accept you were right, but you know that in reality this is not the case, most people live in band A and B.

My 50% figure is correct at a national level. I am not going to go into a debate about RPIvsCPI in this thread.

Re: Council Tax
 

on here i have disagreed with GJ and PB on various things,but i know this, both are damned hardworking councillors, and you have shown your true colours.:(

Re: Council Tax
 

I'm sorry if you feel that way. I simply took offence to Councillor Jones saying my post was "crap. Sloppy research" and accusing me of incorrect, inaccurate figures. When I had spent a lot of time trying to create an unbiased post and making sure my council figures were correct, which they were.

Re: Council Tax
 

yes but i loathe what conservative stand for as you know, but much as i call P.B. i would never doubt how hard he works for Hyndburn, n i respect him fer that,even when disagreeing.

Re: Council Tax
 

I didn't say Graham doesn't work hard, you can see me here: http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/551786-post202.html admitting he had managed to get lots done in his ward, and he responded by thanking me for the post I made.

I've pm'ed you because I don't want this to go off topic.

Re: Council Tax
 

Hate to push old chap but you havn't answered his post yet Graham:confused:

Re: Council Tax
 

A lot of figures are being tossed around amid a lot of confusion ... obviously the figures are a matter of public record. Are they published in the local media ... I would presume the Observer? Are members of the public allowed to sit in and listen while the budget is debated?

Just today in the local rag, they published the figures for the Ontario budget showing how the $96.9 billion in revenue is collected and how the $96.2 billion in expenses will be spent. For example, the govt. will collect $25.2 billion in personal income tax $17.2 billion in sales tax, and will spend $40.4 billion on health care (are you listening Barb?)

I can't understand the confusion over the figures ... is someone trying to hide something or am I just a confused colonial?

Re: Council Tax
 

still the tories fault:rolleyes::tongueout

is that the house ya in at lancaster or ya mothers?
and it wouldnt seem excessive to you, would it?...ya dont pay!:p

Re: Council Tax
 

Yup, the only good tory is a suppository:alright:

Re: Council Tax
 

The budget for 2008-2009 financial year was debted and passed at the Council Meeting held on 28th February. This meeting was open to the public.
Council
Items 12 and 13 were the Budget proposals
The minutes of the Meeting held 28 February will be availabale to view oline, when the agenda etc for the Meeting on 22 April 2008 is avaialble online (link to this meeting is Council

Re: Council Tax
 

All the minutes as far as 2004 are available on the council website: Council

The budget minutes are normally in Feb or March of each year. If you want to go back further the minutes are available at the Library.

All my figures are direct from council minutes which I took a long time to research, the percentages (in terms of how much tax has increased) have been worked out by me afterwards. All the confusion was because g jones was working the percentages out wrong so we had conflicting figures.

Re: Council Tax
 

How the hell can it be the Tories fault!!!!!! They have not been in power for over eleven years!!!!

Oh I get it, the PFI fiasco that GB embraced with both hands and legs as well, the lack of policing in our town, a police station that is not open 24 hours a day, pcso's instead of proper bobbys on the beat, Burnley hospital closing it's A and E, the decline and loss of the Rover Group (I know it had it's start in the 70's with Red Robbo, but GB and King Tony did not do much to help), MRSA in hospitals (that's easy to sort out get rid of contract cleaners, get more nurses and a decent matron like in the good old days), the state of the NHS, Lancashire county council closing its care homes for the elderly, the Highway agency wombles, schools that are alowed to teach creationalism instead of evolution, the polictally correct brigade, gun crime on the increase, the Iraq war, the fact that our navy have aircraft carriers with no aircraft for them (the sea harriers have been retired), our army having a lack of equipment, david blunkett and his ID cards, the DNA database, the RAF having to fly dangerous nimrods, I am sure ther is more, but cannot think of any, it's all down to Thatcher, Major, etc......

Re: Council Tax
 

I hate to sound boring but Graham still hasn't answered my post on his alternative budget proposals for 2008/9:(

Re: Council Tax
 

He also hasn't responded to me to tell me which of my figures were wrong.

I wouldn't hold your breath over the budget, the Labour group didn't even propose one, the independents did though.

Re: Council Tax
 

Thanx ... and also to Cyfr.

Re: Council Tax
 

50% wage rises. I have got an accurate figure on mine from 2000-2008. 23.4% About 8% more than inflation or a 1% rise over inflation each year because the ecomomy has been doing so well;)

BUDGET - You seem to be mixing things up and got confused about what went on.

1) Our budget was 2% by putting less away. There is £1.8million in the bank, well over the 5% required (£15m=750k). So why tax people for nothing? Our borrowing rates now are low. Rainy day = money out of people's pockets and I never thought I would hear Tories say that. Or that they suggest we subsidise nationalised industries.

2) It is not necessary, nor more importantly prudent to vote through a wish list on the night. Tories have the Council's full time officers 5 days a week doing theirs. We don't and I want our policies to be discussed by members of others parties and improved where a better idea exists. Voting through opposition policies on the night is yesterday's politics.

Re: Council Tax
 

My inflation figure was a national average and it is accurate. You can't just pick your own wage and say that it doesn't fit it hence my figures are wrong. Not even sure if that is your correct percentage, because on page 1 you said it was 18%


1) When you say 'required' what is it required for? You say rainy day is money out of peoples pockets, Gordon Brown didn't do it and look where thats got us. You should save in the times of plenty like other big countries. It's irresponsible to not plan for the future.

2) So you don't think an opposition should propose a budget? Three independents managed to produce a budget and I presume they're not allowed to use the full time officers either. In fact some of the independents ideas were included in the budget that was passed.

Since the only proposal in your 'budget' was a 2% tax rise rather than a 5% rise, I presume you agree with the rest of the budget? And what do you do next year to sustain it? Do you increase taxes by much more than 5% to make up for the shortfall, perhaps when the economy is worse off, giving people a real tax burden.

Re: Council Tax
 

Whist I appreciate that your wage inflation was the national average, I don't think that you can apply the natioanl average to one specific area of the country.

As you are well aware, Hyndburn is a 'low wage area' with most people earning well below the National Average Wage. In fact there are many people in Hyndburn who have not had a pay rise for over 12 months.

Can you please supply the figures for average wages in Hyndburn for the last 10 years. (Always bearing in mind that most people will be earning much less than the average).

As a matter of interest I was listening to 2BR the other night, there were a series of job adverts on, most of the office jobs were advertised at £6.00 an hour, the only jobs advertised at jobs with 'reasonable' rates of pay were for motor mecahnics paying approx £10.00 an hour. I have just looked on Job Centre Plus and the highest rate of pay I could find for office work, was for someone to work in HR and they were offering about £7.20 an hour.

Re: Council Tax
 

I only defended it in my last post because g jones said my figure was incorrect.

I found out Hyndburn household income average from 2000-2006 is 52.7% increase.
I'm using household income because council tax is based on households.

Lancashire County Council: Lancashire Profile

Thats only 6 years not 10, I know, but its not easy to find this data. 52% over 6 years is good to say our council tax has increased only 45% over 9 years.

Re: Council Tax
 

From this website it shows the average gross household income (in 2006) in Hyndburn as being under £28,000. It would be interesting to find out how many Acctwebbers have a gross income anywhere near to £28,000 (in the current financial year).

I post my households gorss income tomorrow (when I have added it all up) and give you the comparable figures for 2000.

Re: Council Tax
 

That's household income mind. So if its two people living together they only need to earn £14,000 each to have an average household income in Hyndburn.

Quite realistic if you have a job isn't it?

Re: Council Tax
 

If you go to

http://www.lancscc.gov.uk/office_of_...gePayHours.xls

This gives you the figures from 2002 to 2007 for all areas of Lanachire and shows the average pay for all residents of each part of the county.

Re: Council Tax
 

So if you take 2006 (since that's where the 28k figure comes from)... anyone in full time employment living with somebody else in fulltime employment will easily have enough income to meet the average household income in Hyndburn (which has gone up 52.7%).

Re: Council Tax
 

There are many households with only one earner (because there is only one person living in the household) or with one person working full time and the other part time.

If there is a husband working 37 hours a week and earning £15930 per annum (which is the average for all residents as per LCC figures for 2007) and a wife working 20 hours at minimum wage (20 x £5.52 = £110.40 per week) £5740.80 per annum, the annual household income would be £21670.80. Even if the wife was working full time (37 hours at £5.52 =£204.24) £10620.50 the total household income would be £26550.50 per annum.

It is a sad fact of life that women are still paid less than men, even for doing the same job. Men are given job descriptions with fancy titles, such as 'assistant accountant', and women are given job descriptiosn such as 'accounts clerk'. It is very difficult for a woman to prove she is doing the same work as her male co-worker. Also in many companies there is not a proper pay structure, so you have no idea who is earning what amount of pay - unless you actually ask someone.

I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that two people would both be earning £14000 in the majority of households in Hyndburn.

Re: Council Tax
 

Your £15930 figure is an average of full and part time, but someone working 37 hours is full time.

So..
Man working 37 hours in 2007 (and this is working within Hyndburn not outside of it): £21,622
Woman working 20 hours a week on minimum wage (20 x £5.52 = £110.40 per week): £5740.80

Which is £27,362.80

If the woman works full time at minimum wage that's £10620.50 so works out to be £32,242.50

In a band A house this would mean that if the woman was working 20 hours, council tax would be 3.4% of their income or 4.2% if they lived in a band B property (the majority of which is county council tax).

If there's only one earner, then they get discounts on council tax. The £28k figure is perfectly plausible even if two people don't work full time. As it says on LCC website, 52.7% is the amount household income has increased in 6 years, I think that this is good as its inline with the national average, and means that we have a very good deal where it comes to council tax since that has only gone up 45% in 9 years.

Re: Council Tax
 

I'm cut to the quick, Graham still hasn't replied to my post:eek:

Re: Council Tax
 

Ok

Whilst I agree the £28,000 figure is perfectly plausible, my arguement is that most households in Hyndburn have income of less than this. It is an average, and as you know averages are inflated by people who earn higher wages (I know there are some in Hyndurn - but my argument is that the majority earn much less).

It would be interesting to see the average wage broken down by ward (and polling district within each ward). I think then you would find that in most wards (whre the Band A properies are situated) the household and per capita income is much smaller).


Your average wage for a man working within Hyndburn in 2007 is £21662 (which is £11.26 an hour). I think you will find that most jobs in Hyndburn are paying much less than this. Averages will always be just that, can you please show me evidence of adverts for jobs that justify your figures.

Also single person households only get a 25% reduction in Council Tax, which you have failed to mention in your post.

You have also failed to take into consideration households where there are 2 pensioners. If there joint pension Is £192.37 a week (£10,000 per annum) with modest savings, they would get no help with Council Tax. You have to remember that whilst State Retirement Pension is increased every year, many private pensions do not increase from the level that they when they were first paid.

I appreciate that you are a student and used to doing research, so you must excuse a 'poor' pensioner for trying to dissect your arguments.

Re: Council Tax
 

It was an average figure of people working WITHIN Hyndburn not people who live in Hyndburn and work outside in say Manchester or whatever. I know some people will earn more than average, hence the name, but its Hyndburn I don't think theres hundreds of people earning £100,000+ skewing the statistics. The vast majority of people live in bands A&B, hence the average will be more representative of them, not the 11% of people that live in bands D, E, F, G & H.

As you will appreciate it is very hard to find these specific figures but I'm trying my hardest.

I can only get ward figures from 2001 and 2004. The 2004 figures include merged wards and things for all except Rishton, so I've used Rishton because the two data years are directly comparable.
In Rishton the average household income has increased 15% over 3 years which is 5% per year, so if that were to continue it would be 45% from 1999-2008, obviously the 45% figure is an estimate, but it's a fairy accurate one since it goes along with all the other statistics I've posted.

Here are the first 5 permanent full time jobs from fish4jobs within 10miles of Accrington:

Welder/Fitter: £20,000
Customer account manager: £18,000 + OTE £23k
Payroll Administrator: £15,000-£19,000
Skilled CNC Turner: £25,000-£27,000
Project Engineer: £22,000-£25,000

Of course you won't jump into high earning jobs right away, they need skills and experience, but that's just the way the world works.

Pensioners get all sorts of other benefits, and they get help with council tax unless they have over £16,000 saved. Even then they're still entitled to a 25% discount if they're on their own. If you still don't think the additional benefits pensioners get outweighs them having to pay full council tax if they have more than £16,000 saved and are living together, then you can advocate increasing the state pension or reducing further the amount pensioners have to pay for council tax.

My argument is that the 45% rise in council tax has been less than the rise in earnings for the vast majority of people. Therefore we have it quite good in terms of how much we're having to pay compared with the rest of the country who are experiencing rises of more than 100%. I know they earn more, but this is in terms of percent. I only wish we could have a unitary authority so we didn't have to pay county council.

I'm having fun doing all this research even if I am supposed to be on holiday. I was trying to keep my posts short, but I haven't been able to manage it with this one, sorry. :p

Re: Council Tax
 

Can you please inform us of what search criterion you put into fish4jobs to obtain the 5 permanent full time jobs you have given details of. They are all skilled jobs, notice no unskilled jobs, I looked on the Jobcentreplus website last night and the figures for jobs on there was much lower - even for skilled office jobs. There are many people in hyndburn working in low paid unskilled employment.

Also it is rather a sweeping statement that because Rishton average household income increased by 15% between 2001 and 2004 this trend must have continued. Whilst I appreciate that the changes in ward boundaries do effect the data for the other areas of Hyndburn, maybe Rishton is not a very good example to take as the area contains the households with the highest household incomes in Hyndburn. I know that there are also some very low incomes in Rishton as well.

My husband is a skilled tradesman, but his wages have only inceased from £5.20 an hour in April 2003 to £5.72 (which he is currently earning). Over 5 years this is an increase of £0.52 an hour or 10% - this equates to 2% per annum. I think that you will find that pay rises for people earning just above the minimum wage have only increased by about 2% to 3% per year.

Many employers (many of whom are large PLC's - who make very large profits for their shareholders) do not consider that they need to pay decent living wages beacuse the tax payer will subsidise them by payiing out (to those who meet the relevent conditions) Tax Credits.

Re: Council Tax
 

I didn't put anything in the fish4jobs, simply within 10miles of Accrington, full time and permanent. You asked me to put some advertisements for jobs so I did, and some were much above the average for a man in Hyndburn.

Can I ask what sort of skilled work your husband does? I can't understand that he would only get 20p more than minimum wage for a skilled job with presumably experience?

In terms of employers, there's lots of jobs out there, if I felt I was being underpaid for what I was doing, I'd start to look elsewhere, that's the great thing about markets.

What alternatives are you suggesting in terms of council tax?

Re: Council Tax
 

Council Tax is levied on the capital value of a property as opposed to the Rates which were levied on the notional rental value of the property. The previous Rates system seemed to work well until Maggie dreamed up her 'Poll Tax' which was seen by more or less everyone (conservatives included), to be change for changes sake. Why not return to the old system?

Re: Council Tax
 

Then that's a matter of national politics which our local council can't alter isn't it? This whole thread was started to show people where their money was going in council tax and if they were better off compared with the rest of the country, which it seems they are. By better off I mean percentage wise, of course.

Re: Council Tax
 

My husband is a joiner (with over 45 years experience) he currently works as a maintenance man in an retirement home.

Whilst I appreciate that in terms of emloyers there are 'allegedly' lots of jobs out there - just you try finding another job when you are over 60. Incidentally have you ever been employed (I am a long term job, not one which you had during holidays etc.)? Or, yet again, are you speaking from your 'vaste' knowlege of what you have read or been told by lecturers who have probably never doena proper days work in their lif.

Just done asearch on Job Cntre Plus for all jobs within 10miles of Accrington - these are the first 12 jobs it brought up.
The following results are close to your search criteria but are not an exact match
PCV COACH DRIVER
ACC/42419
ALTHAM, ACCRINGTON, LANCASHIRE
EXCEEDS NATIONAL MINIMUM WAGE
Quality Control Inspector
ACC/42425
ACCRINGTON, Lancashire
9.80 per hour
Quality Control Inspector
ACC/42424
ACCRINGTON, Lancashire
9.80 per hour
HEALTHCARE ASSISTANT
ACC/42406
ACCRINGTON, LANCASHIRE
£5.65 - £5.75 PER HOUR DEPENDING ON EXPERIENCE
SECURITY OFFICER
BUL/6182
BURY
£6.15 PER HOUR
BANK SUPPORT WORKERS
BCK/24232
BLACKBURN, LANCASHIRE
£60 - £80 PER DAY
PLASTIC INJECTION MOULDING SETTER
BUL/6085
BURNELY LANCASHIRE
£9.00 - £12.00 PER HOUR DEPENDING ON EXPERIENCE
PLASTIC INJECTION MOULDING SETTER
BUL/6062
BURNLEY, LANCASHIRE
NEGOTIABLE DEPENDENT ON EXPERIENCE
HGV CLASS 1 DRIVER
BUL/6064
BURNLEY, LANCASHIRE
£6.50 - £8.50 PER HOUR
DUTY NIGHT MANAGER
BCK/24098
BLACKBURN, LANCASHIRE
EXCEEDS NATIONAL MINIMUM WAGE
CUSTOMER SERVICES MANAGER 7296145
BCK/24175
BLACKBURN, LANCASHIRE
£25,000 - £30.000 PER ANNUM
MACHINE OPERATIVE - UNIT 14 SHIFTS
RAW/26228
HASLINGDEN, ROSSENDALE, LANCS
£273.35 PER WEEK

Re: Council Tax
 

I understand it can be hard to find a new job because of the horrible agism that goes on. The only job I have had was part-time and lasted 6months because I went to University at that point. I was paid £4.90/hour (which was above minimum wage for my age). I worked between 16-40 hours a week depending on demand. I plan to get a job with the same company in September when I move house in Hull, making work much more accessible.

As far as lecturers are concerned, many of them have jobs before they become lecturers and I think being a lecturer is a perfectly legitimate days work. Just because it's not manual work doesn't mean its not proper work.

Re: Council Tax
 

No offence to any teachers, but there is that old saying, those that can do, and those that can't teach.;)

Re: Council Tax
 

I was not impying that being a lecturer was not a legimate days work, but that for many people employed in the education sector, the only experience of life is in education, ie. they went straight form school to university to becoming a teacher or lecturer. In my opinion, it is only once you leave the cocooned life of education and get into the 'real' world of work (and by that that I mean both manual and white collar), that your true education begins.

About 20 years ago I went on a man management course, provided by my employer. I quickly sussed that the lecturer had all the statistics to hand about how low paid workers thought etc, but had never been in that situation himself. When I questioned his lectures and told it how it was trying to bring up a family on a low wage, he could only quote statistics to me. That is what I mean about working in the 'real' world, the university of life is a big educator - where you either quickly learn form your mistakes or go under.

This is why I am questioning your statistics etc.

Have you any comments to make on the jobs I found on Job Centre Plus?

Re: Council Tax
 

As usual you post exactly what I am thinking as well.:D

Re: Council Tax
 

Lol, it does happen quite a lot.:p

Let's settle for great minds thinking alike, rather than fools never differing.:D

Re: Council Tax
 

An awful lot of them fall in line with the average household income, even if only one person works full time and the other is part time. Household income has increased by 52.7% according to LCC, therefore showing that the 45% rise in council tax is lower than most peoples earnings increase.

Re: Council Tax
 

And those that can't teach, teach others how to teach:)

Re: Council Tax
 

Still no word from Graham:eek:

Re: Council Tax
 

Jaysay. The residents will be the first to know. That is because last year Conservative's took Labour Budget proposal's, put them on Conservative leaflets an put 'New ideas from your excellent Conservative Council'.

Re: Council Tax
 

18% was a good guess. I asked payroll and updated the accurate figure to include this years settlement as well.


Why are you such a Labour hater. That's all you seem to be.

I said what the private firm of auditors said. 5% (750k). Not political. You show how difficult it is for you to understand the Council when you do not understand local economics, disproportionate taxation, The Council's ability to raise revenue annually as required, or borrow at a low rate for the short term in a crises.

And what sort of 'rainy day' do you think there will be that will require £1million that HAS TO BE IN THE BANK?????????

We did put a budget forward. One that the Independents asked for and said they would support.

You seem to not understand local government. We vote on one thing only. The precept. Council officers but the budget breakdown forward. They do not have too. Once the total budget has been set, any monies can be moved from A to B to cancel one thing and start another. It is not for opposition parties to put idea's forward at Budget.

Independent ideas were rejected, all of them. Dog Bins had been in the three previous Labour budgets. Apprentice's we're awash with, so 4 were always going to Parks. The others as I recall went down the pan as ill thought out, can't possibly be done. In fact the Tories decided before hand to vote against everyone.

Yesterday's polictics again. Black and white.

We agree with most of the budget, but not all, and our idea's will be affordable within a 2% increase. As I have told you 4 or 5 times now nealry all our spending is being funded outside of the Council tax from extra Gov't funds as we are a deprived area. 95% of The Council Tax budget will be the same because there is no politics in emptying bins, but it costs a lot. It's a job and we should all get it done to the best we can. The other 5% will be a shift in resources. Another batch of changes are constitutional and bare no cost.

Next year, what???? We'll just carry on within that budget. Are you suggesting Tories will put up Council tax 3 times inflation every year????

Real tax burden???? Are you related to William Hague????? I had a 23% pay rise over the period and a 45% Council tax rise. The vast majority of people are like me in this area.

Tories bring a Tax burden's, don't make out your some white knight Party. VAT (9% and 17.5%), ending of married couple's mortgage allowance.. the list goes on.... not to say not 1, but 2 Tory Cabinet members ending up behind bars!! Both for purjury.

You're barking mad as well as a labour hater. We once had a loony left and it appears you are the loony right of a desperate Conservative Party.

Re: Council Tax
 

I don't believe you had the nerve to tell me I don't understand local economics after this thread.

I read the council minutes, the only thing I can see is you putting a 2% tax increase. Hence I said 'Presumably you agree with the rest of the budget then'

If it is not for opposition parties to put forward budget proposals, then why did I find loads of Labour budgets in the council minutes from 1999-2005 (the library only had up to 2005).

I'm not sure if you were paying attention at the council meeting, but heres some minutes for you:

"Councillor Collingridge reported that the Independent Members appreciated that the Leading Group had already incorporated some of the ideas into their outline budget but hoped that the majority of the Council would adopt the ideas to help take the town forward."


I don't think you understand. If you take money from the reserves, it means that the money is gone from the reserves so you can't spend it again next year. Therefore you need to raise the money from elsewhere. Or are you just assuming the economy will be fine over the next few years and you'd be able to dip into the reserves again? Not very responsible.

Contrary to all the statistics, contrary to LCC's figures, you're basing the whole of Hyndburn on your wage? I'd rather believe official figures.

As a further note, I'm not a Labour hater, I have lots of friends within the party. In fact I don't actually hate anybody for their Politics. I feel that's counter productive.

Re: Council Tax
 

What you are failing to understand is that the Labout proposal of 2% would not have invloved taking money from reserves. It would have ment NOT ADDING any more money to the reserves.

I am sure that you will understand (with your level of education) that there is a difference between not increasing the contribution to reserves and withdrawing money from the reserves.

Re: Council Tax
 

I'm no massive political buff, but this thread is ridiculous!

Personally, I don't want to see my council leader insulting a person's ability to do research in such a manner. If there's a problem with it, simply point out the error. As it was...
So now, I find that the shadow leader of the opposition can't work out percentages either? And he wants to take my money and work out how it should be spent? Hopefully not with his calculator.

Then he goes on to work out the average wage increases based on his own wage? What?! There's obviously a difficulty in figuring out the average wage increase, but apparently the average household income is 28k.***

After reading this thread, I feel very disinclined to vote labour in the May elections!

A 52.7% wage rise over 6 years sounds good to me. And only a 45% raise in taxes over 10 years = double bonus. This looks pretty good to me. I can't "see how much is being wasted." Nor do I think that "It is the most expensive Council in Britain & probably the worst".

***(Average here should be mean, if there's no skew - Or median, if the wages are skewed by many people earning upward of 100k. This ought to take account of the worries of Claytonender - Median values are not affected by skew) Another worry of mine is using job adverts to show an average. Just because a job isn't advertised doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Any higher wage jobs are probably obtained via promotion. Therefore, using job finding websites will bias the results towards lower wage jobs!

Re: Council Tax
 

And what is wrong with Poll Tax?

Re: Council Tax
 

It was uncollectable from those determined to avoid it. People move - houses dont.

Re: Council Tax
 

Same problems with both. The people in the house move and the council tax does not get collected.

Re: Council Tax
 

There are more people than there are houses so the non collection problem was bigger.
It was easy for people to disappear from the eletoral roll.

Re: Council Tax
 

Since you said in another thread, regarding David Cameron, and I quote, 'I absolutely adore his character and style', I would have been very suprised to hear that you were voting for Labour.;)


http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...web-22265.html

Re: Council Tax
 

From what g jones (Labour group leader) has been saying here it sounds like its directly from the reserves, he never said anything about taking it from not increasing reserves.

Here's a direct extract from the council meeting:

Re: Council Tax
 

Shall I quote in full?

"I absolutely adore his character and style and watching him on PMQ gives me a giggle, but I can't stand him to be honest."

I'm quite offended you took it upon yourself to try to discredit me by quoting only half of what I said.

Re: Council Tax
 

Well I seriously hope you won't be offended by two other quotes of your's from the same thread.


'Not that I'm a Tory per se.'

'This would probably make me vote conservative (if they still held their older values of privatisation, which cameron doesn't, and he won't reduce taxes... he'll probably take away benefits too). '



Both quotes or made in full.

Rather takes something away from your little flounce, that because of Mr Jone's contribution to this thread, you won't be voting Labour.;)

Re: Council Tax
 

He does that as a matter of course to try and be clever....he has me on his ignore list so i'm not bothered. :tongueout

Re: Council Tax
 

But they're not are they? I listed a whole tonne about my views on several political issues, then said that might lead me to vote tory, however they have some policies I don't like. Besides that was ages ago and obviously my opinions have changed over that time. It's not relevant to this debate. Why bring it up?

All I was saying was that a leader of the council should be able to do basic maths and not be so rude to people regarding their research (especially when it turns out to have been correct). It's not very professional. If you disagree, then feel free to vote labour in the upcoming elections.

Edit: And saying I'm "not a Tory per se" is not saying I'm a Tory. I never said I wasn't going to vote labour, I just said disinclined and I never said I was going to vote conservative, just disinclined to vote labour.

Re: Council Tax
 

[quote=DeShark;556467]then feel free to vote labour in the upcoming elections.quote]

Lets play trick with editing.
You can be sure that he will, if not we have gained a supporter and all the supporters of the R***y faith and retoric will be very disapointed.
I remain on the ignore list............so...my Spanish is quite good and I may get in trouble if I say what I am thinking in other that the English language.
If I say what I am thinking in my mother tongue I may get in trouble so good luck tory bretheren........I think we might have won a do.
Good luck Accrington Stanley (Hope the name stays the same)...Good luck
Blackburn Rovers......Burnley - You need all the luck you can get.
If I am still on the ignore list I will be more than happy :tongueout

Re: Council Tax
 

Well I guess I'm just lucky, in as much that my core beliefs, and principles, have remained constant since childhood.:)

Re: Council Tax
 

A sheep following ducks and geese....I told you I was on a winner.
And I am still on the Ignore list so he doesn't know what I am posting :tongueout

Re: Council Tax
 

You said it Graham, your Excellent Conservative Council and so do the Audit Commission

Re: Council Tax
 

And remember when Labour left office there was a deficit

Re: Council Tax
 

So do you have any comments in regards to my post Mr Jones?

And could you please clarify exactly what you meant at council in regards to "funded from the use of reserves". Does this mean its going to be funded from the existing fund, or as claytonender says funded from keeping the reserves the same but not putting any new money in? Or is it something else

Re: Council Tax
 

there is £1.8m in the bank thanks to Government increases. Ample. 5% Council Tax rise, why keep more than the auditors recommended 5%? Do you know more than City Accountants? You seem to suggest that.

On Post Office's you are advocating socialism, on macro economics Free Enterprise, on local government more taxation, on the 10p tax less taxation. You're all over the place.

You'll say anything to defend Conservatism, anything to attack Labour. And the way you have nothing at all positive to contribute (except ridicule of everyone else except David Cameron) is opposition politics from 20 years ago. I feel sorry for you.

No wonder we have had 11 years of Labour Government. They could cock it all up and still be a better option that where you stand.

Re: Council Tax
 

I'll quote the international monetary fund to begin with.

I'm not suggesting more taxation in local government, just sensible taxation. Ensuring that we have funds for the future. Our chancellor Alistair Darling seems to be optimistic about our economy. On the same day the International Monetary Fund warns that the US will go into a recession. The IMF says this is the biggest shock since the great depression. When America sneezes the world catches a cold. It would be completely irresponsible to spend reserves with that in mind. I suppose you have no quarrels with that as long as it sounds good politically that you're advocating a 2% tax rise rather than 5%.

I supported our Labour MP over saving the 10p tax band. How can you suggest I'm all over the place because I don't want to see 100% tax increases to some of the lowest earners? I don't think you even realise what conservatism is. The very essence of my conservatism is to help and protect those who need it most.

You may try and paint me as a 'lunatic', you may try and portray my ideas as inconsistent, and you may try to label me as a Labour hater. We both know you've resorted to insults and character deformation because you've run out of ideas, and run out of arguments. This is clearly evident in how much you go around threads attacking the Conservatives, or me, without putting any thought into the debate.

It's a shame you still failed to answer my question. So I'll ask again,

Re: Council Tax
 

Whilst I am sure that you believe the essence of your conservatism is, as you have stated. But I am much older than you and like many others have a very long memory of what Conservatives stand for.

I know you say that David Cameron has changed the Conservative Party, but the Conservatives have always (and will continue to do so) looked after people with money. It was the Conservative Party (under Thatcher) who set out to ruin the ordinary working people of this country, with the 'no such thing as society'. A recent example of how 'Caring' the Conservatives are is in their actions about the private member's bill to give Temporary and Agency Workers the same rights as other workers, some Conservative MP's attempted to talk the bill out when it came before Parliament for its 2nd Reading .

As regards Conservatives a leopard can't change its spots.

On the subject of Hyndburn Council's reserves - you obviuosly know more about accounting than the Auditors - so what do you suggest would be a prudent level of reserve for Hyndburn Council to hold?

Re: Council Tax
 

I think you have to look further than the last time they were in office to see what Conservatives are about. Thatcher was the only one to give the party an ideology, look beyond her. Although saying that, she allowed hundreds of thousands to buy their own home and did a lot for the working man in terms of rights in strikes etc, but lets not go into a Thatcher debate here.

If you could supply me with the report by the auditors I could comment further.

Re: Council Tax
 

Wrong.

Thatcher's government allowed prople to buy the council owned houses they happened to be renting.

'Selling the family silver' was a term banded about at the time, to describe this short term vote winner.

When this social housing was sold off it was never replaced.

I won't even begin on the gerrymandering that Shirley Porter was found guilty of at Westminster Council, where council homes were sold off to prospective Tory voters.

Re: Council Tax
 

Does anybody have any good reason NOT to vote Conservative in the next elections? I've heard a lot about Thatcher but as the younger generations didn't live under her government, we obviously have no bias like some, just a comparitive view of the CURRENT parties.

Whilst selling council houses may have been a way of getting short term support, you still cannot deny that many people GAINED from this policy and are now on the property ladder thanks to such scheme.

I personally think the arguably selfish reasonings for the policy are overshadowed by the goodness it created for many homeowners today.