funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

the falklands are to be given a referendum on if they wish to remain under UK ownership

this is what william hague had to say

so then why do they get a referendum yet we dont on the EU ?

maybe its because they know damn well the flaklanders will vote to stay under the UK and they know damn well we would vote to get out the EU .Only get a choice if the expected result is what they want .

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Nail - head - hit. ;)

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

although it is the flaklands government that are allowing the referendum im pretty sure it wouldnt slide if cameron thought the result would be different and the comments made by hague just show how they like to encourage democracey as long as its not here.How he has the gaul to say people have teh right to a referendum in a democracey then deny us one is just barefaced cheeck.It shouldnt even be a matter of voting if we should have one we should have a referendum period not just because a handfull of crooks say we may or not be allowed one.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Seem to recall Gib getting one a few years ago, Same thing........They knew how it would fall,:rolleyes:

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Asking the Falkland to vote to be Argentinian is like asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas, they may be thousands of miles away but they know which side their breads buttered on:rolleyes:

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Spot on, but to me the whole point of this thread,is the fact various British Governments were quite happy fer Gib to vote to remain british, The Falklands to vote to remain british, Yet the British Public "NOT" to vote to remain british n sod the eurozone, Democracy here can kiss my ass.:rolleyes:

Re: funny how democracy works for some and not others
 

Spot on cashy, it absolutely stinks, but Call Me Dave knows the outcome of both a referendum in the falklands and GB, he'll love one but not the other:rolleyes:

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

I bet if the choice for the Falklanders was between joining the Argies or joining the EU they would vote to be be the next province of Argentina.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

I think the disdain politicans have for the people who elect them, was best summed up by this quote from Winston Churchill.

'The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.'

Re: funny how democracy works for some and not others
 

I'm not too sure on the one Mr T don't think I'd like to be governed by the Argies, they cheat at football:rolleyes:

Re: funny how democracy works for some and not others
 

The EU cheats at everything. That's why their own auditors have refused to sign their accounts off for, how many years is it now?...15?

Re: funny how democracy works for some and not others
 

Wasn't aware they had auditors Wyn:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Sorry, got it wrong, it's actually the 16th year...

EU accounts not signed off? for the 16th consecutive year Civitas

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Well, I was just about to post that when you put the link up........it is preposterous that another year has gone by and still the budgets are not right........is this not reason enough to withdraw from this great money swallowing, politically corrupt organisation?

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

If folks over there are really concerned about membership in the EU ... and I have read somewhere that 95% don't give a flying you-know-what about it:D ... why not turn the next general election into a vote on EU membership? Let the candidates know that your vote will go only to a party that supports getting out of europe.

Just heard on the news that here in God's country, a grass roots movement has started to unite the left ... this isn't commie stuff: left seems to be defined as a desire to get rid of the tories. Even conservatives are joining. This would mean that in many ridings, Liberals, the NDP, and the Greens would support a single candidate against a tory incumbent. The tories are not listening to the people ... and this is the response that many seem to think will work. People are beginning to realize that the best way to effect change in Ottawa is to vote anyone-but-a-tory. This, like a referendum on EU membership, is a single-issue vote. But for Britain, membership in the EU ... think of being in the EU as having a cabin on Titanic ... is possibly the most important question of all. I don't know how you guys see it from the inside, but from this side of the pond, it looks like the EU as we know it is finished ... done. And I'm sure you are aware that many politicians ... particularly the Huns, go figure, eh:rolleyes: ... are considering that a true political union is the only way out of the mess. Get ready for the Fourth Reich ... oh, and the earthquakes as the "millions of the mouthless dead" start spinning in their graves.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Exactly what meself n one or two others on here have been saying Eric, The problem as always oer here is the die-hard thickos of all parties, so much as i would love that to ensue, doubt very much if it will.:(

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

It was reported that 8 out of 10 people in the UK want a referendum on membership of the EU....and they don't want a woolly worded referendum...they want the simple question....IN or OUT......I wonder if our local MP still thinks that 95% of the population couldn't give a toss about being in the EU.

As for the EU being finished.......I think only the Germans want the EU to survive in its present form, because this gives them dominance....something that two world wars failed to give them.
If Greece leaves the EU, (as some pundits predict) then what is to stop Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland from following suit?......going back to their old currency...devaluing it, and making their goods and services much more attractive.......and helping them to get a foot on the road to recovery.
Who wants to have more fiscal union/political union with Germany?
Who wants to ditch their sovereignty to be (in effect) ruled by Germany?

I think many countries are fiercely nationalistic and do not want to hand over power the the Germans.
Or have I got it completely wrong? I'm sure there are people out there who will be happy to educate me.

They say that getting out of all the agreements will not be easy...but what Parliament has done...surely it has the power to undo....and just because something is not easy - is that the rationale to avoid doing it?

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

I totally agree with everything that has been said on this subject. I like Erics idea of asking each candidate at the next election whether or not they support our membership, and vote for or against that candidate depending on their reply, whether they are Con. lab or lib.But being politicians would they tell us the truth?

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Jim...in a word NO. They say anything to get elected and then whatever they said goes by the baord.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

it wont work just look what happened when we gave our vote to a MP that said he would support a referendum.Within weeks of him been elected he stabbed us all in the back which is pretty much how i imagine most of the MP's would act its not as though any of them keep their word:mad:

well there is an exception cameron did prommise hard times and he has delivered in spades on that but only for us not the countries he constantly ships millions too or his rich friends

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

That'd exactly what I'm doing.

Before M.P.s voted in November, whether we should be allowed a referendum on E.U. membership, I made it very clear to our current M.P. that I will never again vote for a politican, or political party, that doesn't actively support a referendum on this issue.

I won't.

Ever.

I also made it perfectly clear that I will actively campaign against any politican, or party who don't support a referendum.

Which I will/am doing.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Traditionally this area has always been a fairly secure Labour stronghold.

Indeed, in the past this forum was often accused of having a left-wing bias.

Well it's the same people still living here, and the same people still posting here.

So if our local Labour politicans have their heads so far up their party puppet masters' arses, that they can't see that there are many people who think this is a very important issue, more fool them.

Re: funny how democracy works for some and not others
 

Ya I think we need a referendum on the issue:confused::confused::confused:Sure I've heard that one somewhere before:rolleyes:

Re: funny how democracy works for some and not others
 

Well Jim when they're after your vote they will say anything you want to hear, its doing it if you elect them, but when elected if its a case of putting your own political career before those who elected you which has been ably displayed already by our elected one;)

Re: funny how democracy works for some and not others
 

Here Here

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

No doubt if there was a referendum on leaving the EU people would vote Yes.

If there was a vote on bringing back hanging there would probably be a Yes vote.

If there was a vote to cut taxes there would probably be a Yes vote.

All the things above would be popular. But Governments aren't elected to be popular but to do the right thing. And staying in the EU is the right thing.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

...and because YOU'VE decided it's the right thing, that's it, no one else is allowed a say in it. Arrogant to say the least!

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Of course governments are elected to be popular ... "popular" in the sense that they were elected by a majority, or plurality of the popular vote. We all know that, in a democracy, the power resides in the people. They delegate this power and authority to their elected representatives. These reps have no power other than that given to them by the people. If they act independently and counter to the wishes of the voters, then they no longer should have their trust. They deserve to be punished at the polls. And they should face massive peaceful protests. This, of course, is the ideal:rolleyes: The reality is that, once elected, governments feel as if they can ride roughshod over the wishes of the people. This happens because too many people think like you.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Oh what a clever argument.

When it's decided we are allowed a say, whether we want E.U. membership, or not, via a referendum, I'll now vote we stay in.

:rolleyes:

The point is, Mr. Suck a Fisherman's European Friend, the British people have never been asked, or voted whether they wanted to be part of some Franco-Germanic controlled federal European state.

We deserve that right.

I've already said many, many times, if the majority of people vote to stay in the E.U., I'll have no beef with that, and will totally accept the outcome of a process, that arrived at a decision democratically.

The argument is about people having the right to decide their destiny, in a referendum, because what the European Union is, is very far removed from the Common Market we joined.

The pros and cons, of staying in, or leaving, will happen once we are given the right to vote in a referendum.

It really is that simple.

Hopefully even you will be able to see that.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Yes, sheep.

Happily there's usually someone close at hand to worry the silly little flockers.

http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticon...gif?1292867670

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Well, I say 'worry'...

http://www.bigpower.co.uk/forum/imag...eepshagger.gif

but you get my point.

The poor little lambs are easily 'taken advantage of'.

By hook, or by crook.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

The same poster who said he'd vote for a donkey if they pinned a Labour rosette on it.

It figures. :rolleyes:

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

I've just sneaked into the Happy Twilight Retirement Home lounge, and pinned a vote Labour rosette on the seat of poor old Maggie's Tena Lady leisure suit.

Well, a vote's a vote.

Even for an imbecile, who hasn't yet been unmasked, and will therefore be ineligible from casting a vote.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Oh what a clever catch-phrase!
Love it -buy British -suck a "balsamic sweet" - over-power the smell of garlic and sauercraut from our EU "friends"!:D

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

I have no time for Little Englanders. For our country to prosper we need to unite with other European countries to take on the USA and emerging BRIC countries.

I've noticed that many of the posters on this site actually live on the continent. Italy, Spain, France. They seem to like closer links with Europe and seem to have benefited from them.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

I have no tome fer cretins meself.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Being one of those who you mention I wouldn't know if or how I've benefitted exactly. I have tried my best to integrate and love many things about France, Italy and Spain -but as I have always said, I prefered them as separate entities with their own identities -not sucked into something bigger which effectively nullifies their individualism and national identity.
Links -OK- not necessarily living in each others pockets.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Take your blinkers off Fraulein Braun.

This site was created so those who live around the world can stay in touch with this area.

As for me, I loved working for a magazine in Germany, and plan to retire to France.

So stick that in your Little Englander pipe, and have a jolly good suck.

With your abilities to reach out and relate to real people, you should perhaps consider moving into politics...if you haven't already.

:rofl38:

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

...and when your puppet masters in the Labour party eventually decide they too will have to support a referendum, because otherwise it's a guaranteed vote loser, then you'll also agree that it's the right thing to do democratically?

Talk about having no principles...unless ordered to do so.

You are a silly little Baaaa....lamb, aren't you?

http://www.fresh-hope.com/forums/ima...ies/sheep1.gif

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

It's not a war!
Prosperity is not about quick profits made by moving manufacturing where it costs less but is about building something concrete at home - creating real jobs and quality products. That is the base for a strong economy.

Look back in time - Empires have always overstretched themselves and ultimately implode. Time for a re-think - at all levels - Britain is no longer self-sufficient and buys in foodstuffs and goods from abroad below cost at the expense of home-grown produce and products = loss of manufacturing and shrinking agriculture = shooting oneself in the proverbial foot.

Crack open the Fisherman's Friends....;)

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Benefits:

1) Peace in Europe for the best part of 70 years.
2) Free movement of people which allows anyone in the EU to live/work in any other EU country.
3) Both of the above and free trade which, generally, have led to rise in living standards and a more prosperous Europe in the past 70 years and have meant that people are able to move to the Dordogne etc.

As for nullifying individualism and national identity. The UK is a good example of why this wouldn't happen. We are a United Kingdom but England, Wales, Scotland & N.Ireland (and regions there in) all have unique identities but have the same currency, no barriers to trade, free movement, parliamentary democracy, monarch, army etc, etc etc. Same with the USA.

Plus Westminster feels as distant as Brussels to me. For all the good a Westminster government has done for the North West and Lancashire we might as well be governed by Brussels.

The world has changed over the past 100 years. Due to immigration and emigration personal identity isn't about where you live but who you are.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

My basic instinct is to say "Yes, let's get out of the EU. It's a complete mess and we would be better off out of it.'

But I will only vote to leave the EU when I have a definitive answer from someone in the know to the following simple question:-

'How much will it cost us?'

My worry is that the desire to return to a world where we weren't members of the EU is like an unhappily married man who wants a divorce so he can go back and live with his mum. Unfortunately, the ex will ensure you are taken to the cleaners to the extent that you will be even more miserable than you were when you were married.

:(:(:(

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

.....and does your mum want you back? She may have let your room to a Brazilian, Russian, Indian or Chinese lodger.

:(

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Boy's, boys, all a bit pointless, discussing the whys and wherefores, now.

That will happen when we are given a referendum.

Until then it's all a bit pointless.

As your opinions really count for nothing.

If you think your views are valid, join the fight for a referendum.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

I would get into this argument and challenge some of your concepts, but I fear it would be injurious to my health......and besides as G says....it doesn't amount to a hill of beans because we have yet to be asked.....and, more importantly be told that what we vote for will be acted on. Until then it is all academic.
But Toffe guy, if you love Europe so much, then there is nothing at all stopping you from moving to one of its countries. Greece would probably benefit from your expertise.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Pretty much exactly what I've been trying to say for months but you will probably get shot down for being sensible about it and trying to see the bigger picture. You haven't spent nearly enough time slagging off our MP or conducting straw polls either.

Besides which, what would you know about finances anyway?

;)

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Gynn has a perfectly reasonable question, Set against what would or is it costing us to remain in? These n many more can only be answered by information given before any referendum, Meself i suspect whilst it will obviously cost to get out, It will cost more in the long run,to remain in.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Waste of time discussing the issue.

Your opinion doesn't count.

Your little chum Graham Jones voted against your view counting for anything.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Slagging off?

Unfamiliar with that phrase.

Is it the sort of thing you did constantly on here, targeting our then Council Leader, when you were in opposition?

How soon you forget.

Happily most on here don't.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Or perhaps 'slagging off' is the sort of thing I did, to poor Karen Buckley, when she stood as the Conservative candidate against Graham Jones, in the last General Election.

I do remember I was encouraged by every Labour politican who uses at Accy Web, at the time.

Which makes them equally involved with proceedings.

Like slag bridesmaids.

Re: funny how democracy works for some and not others
 

Obviously a disciple of Comrade Jones and Comrade Millipede;)

Re: funny how democracy works for some and not others
 

Ya I was once like that with a blue one but I've mellowed in my old age:rolleyes:

Re: funny how democracy works for some and not others
 

Calm down Rindi, he's obviously got the same principles as our illustrious elected member Jones who toes the party line come what may:rolleyes:

Re: funny how democracy works for some and not others
 

Quite right Rindi, hypocrites usually have two faces or even more;)

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

The thing is Ken(and you know I am a moderate) none of us will know if, what the powers that be, tell us, is the truth, because, to be blunt they haven't got a clue how much it would cost to come out of this corrupt organisation.
Would you hitch your wagon to an organisation that hasn't had a budget audited and signed off as being true, for the last 16 years....16 years?!

Do you want to be ruled by laws that are made in Brussels(and made by unelected officials - officials who have no accountability to us, the electorate of GB)?

The EU was sold to the British public as a trade agreement, there was nothing political implied by joining way back then.
It has turned into something else, and along the way governments of the time have said they would give the electorate a referendum and it still has not happened!

The other thing that is galling, is that some member states seem to follow the edicts from Brussles very loosely - and some not at all....but Britain is slavish in its adherence to the rules.

It was an ill advised, poorly thought out concept. One size fits all doesn't work.......I said it way back then and it is being proved in front of my eyes.
Anyone who spoke out against the EEC back then was deemed to be shortsighted and xenophobic.........and lower class(because it was deemed that the lower classes couldn't understand how good this organisation would be for Britain). It was almost a kind of fascism.
I didn't want to be part of Europe then, and I don't want to be part of in now....and, if I were younger I would flee this country at the very first opportunity.
There......I've said my piece......now I'll go and have a cup of tea.( a panacea for all things).

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Peace in Europe? Well let's forget about the Cold War and what it cost European countries ... and that spat in the Balkans ... and what's happening in the streets of major European cities ... Peace broke out inevitably, aided by MAD and the Germans finally getting it throught their thick, square heads that maybe a big juicy war with lots of fancy uniforms wasn't the way to go. Peace was earned by an independent Britain sticking it out alone when the rest of the world, even the U.S. had just about given up on ever being able to beat the Nazis. The turning point of the war, I would argue, was the Battle of Britain ... not Stalingrad, not Midway, not Operation Bagration, not D-Day. Hitler, in order to win, had to beat the British in 1940. After the war, after Trinity, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, Europe just about had to be peaceful ... the peace of exhaustion after two world wars. A peace of two super powers, aided and abetted by some European minnow states.

And what is so good about the free movement of people running around Europe looking for work? Is this any better than a Britain with a strong manufacturing base, and well-paid jobs for British working men, in Britain? (Sorry about the political incorrectness ladies ... but, I'm old and old fashioned):D

And free trade. Gimme a break:rolleyes: The only beneficiaries of this are the major transnational corporations. In the US ... and we have to admit that they are a major world economy:rolleyes: ... protectionism has become the name of the game. And another booming (although slowing) economy is China's. Protectionism all the way. And the rise in living standards ... mere temporary illusion ... tell it to the Greeks. Tell it to the almost 50% of young unemployed Spaniards. Look at Britain. A few great boom years, and then into a recession that won't be going away any time soon.

In short:rolleyes:, I don't agree with you.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Thank you, thank you, thank you Eric.........I couldn't find the will this morning to challenge Toffee Guy on his post, but you have done it....and admirably well too.
I salute you Sir.
I don't agree with him either...but then I think most people knew that anyway.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

The precursors to the EU, EEC etc, and the Nato Alliance provided strength during the Cold War. So thanks for providing me with another reason for why the EU is a good thing. Resisting Communism during the Cold War.

Plus I think you'll find the Enigma machine had a big hand in winning the war, helped by our current EU colleagues the Poles. Hitler trying to take on Russia didn't help. But basically we wouldn't have won the war without the US. But that's another subject altogether.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

How do you think the referendum question should be worded?

'Are you in favour of the UK leaving the European Union' perhaps?

What about 'Are you in favour of returning to the halcyon days where Britannia ruled the waves, there were blue birds over the white cliffs of Dover, Johnny Foreigner was kept firmly in his place and you could have a night out in Accrington, fish and chips on the way home and still have change from a ten bob note?'

Strikes me that either question is as valid because it ain't going to happen, and Graham Jones is merely playing the entirely correct role that an MP should play in protecting the great British public from wasting its time in voting on something that can't be delivered.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

The Nato alliance is a totally different thing to the EEC...which later became the EU. The EEC was supposed to be a trading alliance, the EU is a political body...and even today they are talking about closer political ties....that means more power goes to Brussels.(they will make our laws regardless of what we think about them)

I know that in a previous post you said that Westminster feels as far removed as Brussels does........but the difference is we can vote out those who are elected to Westminster.......we do not have that opportunity with the unelected officials in Brussels......What about our MEP's?.......they have as much influence in altering the EU policies, as King Canute had in turning back the tide.
I am never ever going to agree with your views.....and you aren't going to be swayed by anything I have to say...pretty much like the situation with us wanting a referendum.......It makes no difference what our individual views are if we are not allowed to express them in a democratic way...by voting, and having action taken on the result of that vote.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Are you taking a rise?

The questions should be as simple as possible so that everyone can understand what is being asked, and respond accordingly.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Western strength in the cold war was sitting in missile silos in North Dakota, on US nuclear submarines, and in the bomb bays of SAC planes. And what has communism got to do with it? The Soviets stopped being communist when Stalin took over, maybe even before that ... State Capitalism would be a more accurate term for their political system. And looking back on those times it is difficult to judge who was the bigger threat to world peace: The USA or The USSR ... In those heady brinkmanship days of the early 60s each of them took us to the edge of anihilation ... many think that the yanks took us too close in the Cuban Missile Crisis.

And the Enigma thingy ... a lucky break indeed, the kind of thing one needs in a war, like Il Duce invading Greece without telling his boss ... and one can go on and on ... breaking the Enigma, particularly after the huns added a fourth wheel, did give us the computer (thus allowing us to argue over great distances:D) ... It was a great aid in the fighting of the Battle of the Atlantic; but lets not forget the thousands of brave merchant seamen and those who served on convoy escorts (many of which, by the way, belonged to the Royal Canadian Navy). It was primarily through the efforts of these men, and not the eggheads at Bletchley Park, that the U-Boats were defeated.

And I'm not aware that I said the war could have been won without men and materiel from the US. I did suggest, however, that without a victory in the Battle of Britain the war might have ended in favour of Germany, leaving a militarily weak US to deal with the mess, or come to terms.

You really do seem to be clutching at straws.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

To me its very simple gynn, IN OR OUT simples, then nobody can cock up and miss read the results and put their own spin on it,;)

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

As always Marg, a perfectly level-headed reply that it's hard to pick fault with. However, we do loop back to my original point that even a straight In/Out vote would currently be based for a lot of people on what they think they know from the media and it's generally not a pretty picture.

I await the precise wording (or even the intended wording from the SNP's point of view) on the Scotland farrago. I'm not against that either but I suspect the WHOLE truth won't be told by either side and that's where it will fall down.

If referendums had a non-biased factsheet presenting everything that people really needed to know then I would be over the moon but as it stands we have to rely on the most charismatically-persuasive argument instead.

Dodgy ground and unlikely to change, I fear.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Dead right on this one. The question should be short and simple. After all, as Dorothy Parker observed: "Brevity is the soul of lingerie";)

Re: funny how democracy works for some and not others
 

It ain't rocket science Kenneth, at the moment we can't go for a pee unless we consult Brussels, there's really no point in having general elections, as everything we do, we have to ask the EU if its okay and in keeping with what THEY want, we may as well run the white flag up over Westminster, we've been taken over without even a sign of Jackboots down Whitehall:mad:

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

The last time we had a referendum about Europe, in 1975, in which you voted, if I recall correctly, the actual wording was...

"Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?"

Cut to nearly forty years later, when dreams of a purely trade alliance are but a distant dream.

The next referendum question should be...

''Do you think the UK should stay in the European Union?''

Yes - [ ]

No - [ ]


It's really very simple.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

I have to say that because I am a dyed in the wool cynic, I am very suspicious of the charismatically persuasive argument.
Too many times in the past politicians have told us what they think we want to know....which is a good country mile away from what we really want to know.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

The British public base who they vote for along similar lines, so on this occasion you're right, for once.

Though again, the results ain't pretty.

Sadly, for some, the days when politicans were held in high esteem are long gone.

The general public are quite capable of assessing a situation, and deciding what they want their future to be.

They aren't idiots.

Well no more so, than the people they elect.

Again, all irrelevant.

It's been decided, we aren't to have the democratic right to say whether we want to be a member of a body, that is totally different from the organisation we voted to join.

The Labour party are actively seeking we be given a referedum about the proposed changes to the House of Lords.

So the argument that the public aren't capable of giving their opinion via a referendum, really doesn't wash.

The vast majority of people want their say about E.U. membership in a referendum.

It will happen.

When mainstream parties see their support vanishing.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Yes, they argued, and fought tooth and nail, that their expenses need to remain secret, for 'security reasons'.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Yes G....I'm still not 'over' that...and the EU and any mention of it makes my blood boil.
I really do despair of the future for this country....and for those who have still to grow up and make lives for themselves.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Why don't we have a referendum about whether to have a referendum? :idunno::sleep::sleep8::hidewall:

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Saddens me to say so, but I really wouldn't want to live here this time next century, the way things are going.

Things need addressing now, if the next generation are going to benefit from the freedoms we've enjoyed.

Freedoms which were hard won.

Earned with the blood, sweat, and tears of our forefathers.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Oh Sue...please....don't let's go there!
You might well hide behind that wall :D

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

You could have voted in our poll, but sadly it's closed.

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...oll-31815.html

:D

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Fantastic idea:theband: One could call it, say, a General Election:rolleyes:

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Europe, and our relation to it, will be very central to the next Genaral Election.

I think public opinion might eventually be getting through some thick, political skulls.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Yup ... it just might.;) What could happen is that when the General Election approaches, and the major parties put forward their platforms, the grass roots party members and the public in general should tell them to stuff their official platforms where the sun don't shine:D Platforms are bs anyway ... aren't most voters aware of what parties stand for? I mean, we all know that the tories probably won't consider expanding and strengthening the NHS, and that Labour won't bring back foxhunting and gay bashing. And isn't the general party stance enough to know? Who needs the details? Just let them know that a referendum on membership in the EU is the major issue, the only issue ... screw the rest of the platform.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

It is all very well saying that Eric, but they say one thing and do something different once in power........I don't trust any of them as far as I can spit.
They can promise us a referendum and then not do anything about what the results are.
according to one press report 8 out of 10 of the electorate want a say in the membership of the EU.......and what good is a costly referendum if the results are not legally binding(which David Cameron says they won't be)?

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

What good is it? About as much use as teats on a bull. But, one should still try. If there's enough angry noise they just might get the message. Oh, and don't hold your breath;):D

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

I'm sure you are right and I guess that is why some of us on here keep plugging it(some would say 'banging on').
It is hoped that the main political parties realise that this issue is truly their Achilles heel, and set about doing something to ensure they are electable when the time comes.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Don't be silly Eric they'd change the goal posts:rolleyes:

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Negativity will get us nowhere.

Other than deeper into the mire.

Technically a referendum's result might not be legally binding.

Though historically I can't think of any that haven't forced governments to act on their results.

Can you, because I don't think there's been any?

First we must all fight that we are allowed one, because the European Union has changed in all recognition from the body we voted via a referendum to join, which was called the Common Market.

Re: funny how democracy works for some and not others
 

Ya the only time there's been any sort of referendum was back in 75 when Wilson asked should we stay in or come out, but it was a totally different ball game then, not the federal states of Europe like people would have it

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Republic of Ireland

Public voted to reject the new EU Constitution. Government reaction was to launch a publicity campaign and hold a second referendum. Result? Acceptance.

And how many of the thousands of agreements/statutes/concordats signed by the British government in Brussels on which millions of people have based life determining decisions (where to live, where to work,etc etc etc) are also legally binding?

A simple YES/NO vote on the UK membership would be an exercise in naivety. We are in. Get used to it!

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Er....I'm not Irish.

I can't think of any referendum's results that haven't been acted upon by a British government.

You've already stated you're happy with the current status quo, regarding our membership of the E.U.

I'll 'get used to it' when the majority of the British people have ratified it, via a referendum.

As for the 'naivety' of a question with a yes/no voting option.

Even you seemed to manage quite well, when you voted in similarly simplistic yes/no referendums about Europe, in the seventies.

This isn't going away.

Even you should be able to see this, as a pro-European Unionist, who doesn't want a fair, and democratic referendum.

There's a growing demand for the right to have our views counted.

Get used to it.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

It's almost as if you fear a referendum.

Why?

If it's so womderful, you've nothing to fear.

The majority will vote we retain E.U. membership.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Why should we get used to it when we were taken into the EU under false pretences(a trading partnership was how it was sold)...hoodwinked, bamboozled.
Maybe you actually like having the rules made by Brussels. Maybe you think that it is fine to belong to a corrupt money hungry organisation that cannot balance its books(no signed off Audit in 16 years). Maybe you really want to be ruled by Germany(who seem to have the whip hand in everything)
As for the regulations, agreements, statutes, concordats......are you saying that these are set in stone?
It is time we took back our sovereignty......as for those who came tolive/work over here during the time when the EU said they could freely move between countries of the EU...let them choose, they can stay or they can go...But if the vote was for us to come out of the EU and the bigger 'if' - if it was acted on, then there would be no more free movement....maybe we could get some British people their jobs back.

Just because something isn't easy doesn't mean that it should not be attempted.
Gynn, you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.
We are never ever going to agree on this one.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Get used to it, if you have tooth ache you don't get used to it ya get it sorted out and removed if need be, why get used to it when you can, with some effort get rid of it

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

There were probably similar doom merchants in 1939.

'The Germans have invaded Poland.'

'It'll be difficult to change this now.'

'Get used to it!'




Rubbish.

If something's wrong in principle, it should be addressed.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Doesn't work like that, according to the Lump of Labour fallacy...

Historically, the term "lump of labour" originated to rebut the idea that reducing the number of hours employees are allowed to labour during the working day would lead to a reduction in unemployment. The term has also been used to describe the commonly held beliefs that increasing labour productivity and immigration cause unemployment. Whereas some argue that immigrants displace domestic workers, others believe this to be a fallacy, arguing that such a view relies on a belief that the number of jobs in the economy is fixed, whereas in reality immigration increases the size of the economy, thus creating more jobs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Good job you were only a pen-pusher at the council.

You're job probably wouldn't have been very secure, if you were reliant on garnering public support.

It's an overwhelming majority voting NO, so far.

Get over it.

;)

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

The Lump of Labour is considered to be a fallacy, rather than proven to be one....and I don't want to split hairs but, I did say 'maybe' it would get some British people their jobs back.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Nope, they changed the goalposts, tweaked the question, and used tactics akin to, your firstborn will be eaten by locusts by the Germans if you say no.

That's why there are judges...to interpret the law and overturn it, where necessary, when it is found to be unreasonable

Where is your evidence that a yes/no would be naive?

Simplistically this country voted yes to a trade agreement, (which I'm ok with) which was somehow, turned into a united states of europe, interfering with the policies, laws and economy of it's member states, governed by freeloaders, bankers and the Germans, who are not even accountable to it's own internal assessors (which I'm not ok with)

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Well said Guinness, Think many folk,me included were O.K. wi a simple trade agreement. The fact now it aint the case, perhaps Gynn should get oer that.:rolleyes:

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

There isn't any.

He, himself, voted in the 1975 referendum.

Which was very clearly worded, with a simple yes/no voting option.

The actual wording being...

"Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?"

Being clear, and straightfoward is only naive, when you're frightened of what's really the only right thing to do.

Which is to let the people of Britain decide what they want themselves.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

Perhaps Gynn was simple back in 75? But super clever now?:hehetable

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

The yes/no vote in 74 was contested by both major parties and at that time the Labour policiy was a NO vote and the Tories was for a YES.. the Yes vote won easily.. now I reckon some of those who voted YES are on this forum..so it's own up time.. I was not one of them.

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

I voted yes, it was my first vote, I knew nothing, and cared about nothing except where I could get after hours drinking. My dad said he'd voted yes, so I did too

Here's a novel idea raise the voting age to 40,.... Demographic...married, womaniser/cougar, kids, smoker, drinker, driver, lapsed religious..and more importantly 'informed'

Oh wait...the politicians don't want that kind of demographic..they want the easily led like I was at 18, they don't want 'informed'

Re: funny how democracey works for some and not others
 

I voted Yes back then, cos i believe the Common Market was a great idea,n i was always a Labour Voter, But unlike some i have never been a sheep.:rolleyes:;)