School Beards.
 

Two bearded boys barred from Accrington school Mount Carmel Roman Catholic High School - Accrington Observer

They where talking about this on radio 5.

In terms of science, How does a 14 year old grow a beard?
Parents been putting bio grow on their cornflakes?

http://www.b3tards.com/u/db8f117f459...mall-moley.gif

Re: School Beards.
 

According to the daily mail, copper tops are also banned.
'Children who turn up to school with red hair, inappropriate jewellery, false tan or make-up are isolated in a room until the matter is addressed and then they return to their normal day.
Muslim pupils, 14, banned from the classroom for refusing to shave off their beards after claiming their religion forbids it | Mail Online

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Pardon me whilst I change into drier underwear!

I haven't laughed so much in ages!

We must be back into silly season, there is outrage when Muslim Women wear tents in public and now we are trying to fan the flames of prejudice against pubescent boys!
Nothing to do with religion surely? Most boys of that age (and in my school some of the girls too!), would proudly sport their bit of bum fluff on their top lip while they counted the hairs on their chinny, chin, chin.

Surely this isn't news?

It is just a quiet day in the Editors Office.
:rolleyes::p

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O.K. why are muslims allowed to enter a catholic school then?:confused: I passed my 11 plus and was refused entry to A.G.S. cos i was catholic, was told i had to go to Q.E.G.S. in Blackburn, so refused and was sent to Accy Tech.:eek: which was only fer what they called "Border-Lines":eek:

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Cashy, I don't think they can discriminate school entry on grounds of religion the way they did back then.
My question would be...why would muslim parents want to send their boys to a catholic school?
Might it be because they have good ideals and morals taught there?(and because of this, they are a good centre for learning)

There is nothing in the muslim holy book that says these young men must keep their facial hair..it is said that the prophet had a beard and so they are emulating him...fiddle faddle it is just to assert themselves and create publicity for the muslim cause.

I would say to the governors chuck them out and let them find a place in a school which has less strict dress and uniform codes of conduct.

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Are you sure you don't mean St. Mary's College?:confused::confused:

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This debate about beards and moustaches was ongoing at my school back in the day,......... moustaches were banned,........................ but the girls refused to shave them off.

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I was wondering why Go to a school that has RC in the title when your Muslim there is going to be problems

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because the muslim card is like " Visa " its accepted everywhere

a muslim has no place demanding it be allowed to follow its muslim ways in a catholic school but you cant say that or you are the one at fault.I didnt attend the school in question because im not catholic.

besides arnt there islamic schools people who wish to follow the teachings and rules of islam can attend ?

i wonder how well it would go down if i sent my son to a muslim school and packed his lunch with bacon butties that he chompped down on in the middle of their canteen and how much support he woudl get from the muslim community that he be allowed to continue.

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Catholic schools give priority to Catholic children .

If all the Catholic children are catered for and there are still vacancies , then parents who are not Catholics may apply for their children to be admitted according to the school's admission policy .

So you can have atheists , agnostics , Jehovah's Witnesses , Muslims , Jews , Anglicans , Methodists etc. in a Catholic school .

Having said that , all children at a school should be expected to conform to the school's policy regarding dress and appearance , a policy which would have been made clear to the parents when their children were granted admission .

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In a nutshell

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when we where looking at secondary schools for Reece, his first choice was Our lady and St Johns catholic school in Blackburn.....because we aren't catholic he didn't get in, we looked at getting him baptised catholic when he was young (my mum was catholic as where her parents), only to be told that because neither me nor Shaun where not catholic, he couldn't be baptised, the rules of that church baffle me somewhat....anyone can be christened or have a naming ceremony in any other religion despite their back ground, but not in catholicism...

anyway

14 year olds do grow beards, Reece has been shaving since he was 12, he has on occasion gone into school (before he left) with stubble on his face and been told to make sure he has 'tidied his face up' by the next day, so it isn't a race thing at all, it is a school thing, but of course, the race card will win as always

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spot on Shaz...if these had been white boys it would have caused no furore, but because they are muslim....it is blown out of all proportion and racist card is played yet again.

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Its about ruddy time these people were raced back to there countries were thats the norm.:(

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I agree Cashy. I have no qualms about people coming here, but they need to realise that they are in a foreign country, which they have chosen to adopt.
I have no qualms with them following there own culture in their homes and places of worship, but in public life they must abide by the rules that are in place in schools, shops, banks, courts and places of work.
They cannot do as they please or change the rules to fit themselves,then when pulled up for it play the race/religion card.
If they do not like living here...having the freedom that this country affords them, then they can leave.....and make sure the door doesn't bang them on the bum as the leave.

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They were all born here I'll betcha' MrC .. we can't sent these callow youths anywhere. Callow and ill advised they are but home grown just the same.

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A famous comedian once made a joke about born, and stables.

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Oh i agree D they no doubt were, but i'd still boot em off to where thats the norm, in other words,live by our standards or go if they are unacceptable to em.;)end of the day we live abroad n accept.

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Breaking with tradition ;)I am, "shudder" with Less on this one Ol, it must have been a slow news day.
A non story.

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Of course they are born here...but that doesn't make it acceptable for them to flout the school rules that must have been in place when they were accepted for places...they haven't just gone to that school they ar 14 years old..if their parents do not like the rules then let these juveniles go to where this form of appearance is acceptable.

When I mentioned about people accepting the rules of the country they have chosen to live in....I wasn't on about sending them back to whence they came, but just saying that they were free to leave at any time if they didn't feel that this country suited their culture...and for some it obviously doesn't, but I guess they are reluctant to give up any tax credits or family allowance that they get here(and maybe wouldn't get elsewhere).

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Ya I wonder why its always us who have to change to cater for others who choose to live here, whether they're born here or not, if people don't like our way of living Manchester airport is only around 30 miles away and flights leave regularly for all points east:rolleyes:

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It may have been a slow day in the newsroom, but it has still provoked interest...and comments.

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Pretty sure that in the early '50s there were RC and Jewish pupils at AGS - they were excused morning assembly during prayers. Not 100% certain, maybe Bob Dobson can confirm or otherwise.

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There were certainly none catholics at Holy Family (Mt Carmel) in the early 60s, they were exempt prayers at morning assembly

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In late 50s, 59 to be precise i was refused admission by The Education Authority admittance to AGS cos i was catholic, even went wi me mam up to the office on "Cannon St" to argue the toss.

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I can remember R.C. pupils at AGS . There was one in our class.He was excused morning assembly as you say. That was in the 1960's

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They objected to me cos i was at St Johns, being brought up wi me nan n she was bad on her pins n couldn't take me to St,Annes, she lived on block below St Johns n could stand at door whilst i walked up yon.:eek: Barstewards they were in my view.:(

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Says a lot on the day after a jury convicted an alchoholic mother of eight of manslaughter. The poor mite dying in unimaginable squalor and being found mummified years later.
Hutton was the daughter of a nurse came from a middleclass background and herself had been a care assistant. Professionals (not my description) who visited the house noted no concerns about the other children despite their untreated head lice, fungal infections and signs of frostbite like damage on their toes.
Then again there's already a thread "Tragic Human Failure"

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Funnily enough they don't hold trials in Accy these days.:D

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They have still got the stocks up Huncoit though :D

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Well, if you had wanted to start a thread on that case, what stopped you?
Or you could have tagged into the thread on human failure...had you wanted to.
It was you who conceded that Less was right about a slow day in the newsroom.......so are you now saying that you were wrong?

And what pray, has this womans background got to do with the case?
Is it your belief that only such things happen in the lower socio economic groups? Or that you have to be poor and underprivileged to be bad?

Bad people come from all walks of life....I'm sure you will also have read about the groups of men who groomed vulnerable girls in Bradford, Rochdale and Oxford.

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If its school policy then its tough , off comes the bum fluff like it or lump it. Once again as many have said the race card is produced when something does not suit. That's why when it is waved with legitimate cause people still view it through narrowed eyes with a good dose of cynicism.

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Very true its worn a bit thin now wi many people i come into contact with n the Politicians are to dense to grasp the nettle.:rolleyes:

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if any faith can go to these schools then i am wondering with the boys only and girls only free muslim schools opening in Blackburn, are these forced to take in a percentage of other faiths?

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From my reading of it only one relative of the boys has claimed they are victims of discrimination and doesn't want to be named.
The school principle says he spent some time researching the issue and speaking to Muslim elders.

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Interesting question. Would you send a child of your own there if it was a fact that the quality of the tutoring was superior to that of a school of alternate religion?


Well. On this subject- If I had any children I would prefer that they do not go to any religious school and request that they do not get force fed any religion. Totally and utterly irrelevant to curriculum. In a perfect world, imho- would be no religious schools whatsoever.

I ain't sure what it is. Higher levels of testosterone or something like that? I have an Irish friend, whom at 17 had a rug on his chest. Took me around 30 years to get a few hairs haha ;)

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I guess it's a question of balance Rob, I'd prefer that kids are given a balanced and broad view of world religions. Easy to say but hard to put into practice.

Kids are reaching puberty earlier and earlier these days but then again there have always been early starters. I think the school is handling the situation sympathetically. After all they are only kids and will be coping with the associated emotional problems that puberty brings with it. It's the parent's or relatives that are advising them using their own agenda wrongly in my opinion.

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To be honest "D" i take the view "All kids are equal" n on that basis the school to me are handling it completely wrong. Any breach of school rules with any child should end in discussions between school @ parents of the child,to consult elders to me is ridiculous.:eek:I agree about parents or relatives advising to own agenda.:(

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I don't see how speaking with the elders is ridiculous, anything that helped the school to a sensible and balanced view has to be better than just talking to the parents.

"A side bar issue" as the yanks tend to say Ol. Just read some of Mo Farrah's bio and he makes mention of the respect he had for the elders in the madrassas including the big stick. Oh the good old days on Union Road eh?

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I see your point, however, The other year i refused for my daughter to visit a mosque to study their beliefs. You want to know why i refused? Simple, It was a 1 way thing. It was ok for my daughter to visit a mosque but there was no school trip arranged to visit a church or any other faiths place of worship. Why is that? Simple, they do not belief in any other faiths nor will try to understand other peoples religious beliefs regardless.

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It is ridiculous because the elders have only one intention, and that is definitely not to support the school, but to support the boys involved by invoking the religious card.
It should be the parents or guardians only.

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Well you should have pressed the school harder in the interests of impartiality and balance to arrange as many cross cultural visits to schools, places of worship etc.

Let me tell you from vast experience, if you ask someone if they are your average politically active person they will insist that they are – and then they will do precisely zero about things they moan about..

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Utterly Ridiculous all children should be treated equally, seems the bleeding heart liberals can't grasp that simple fact.

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Where in all this brouhaha Mrs P have the elders made a statement invoking the religious card?

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They(the elders) have said that the growing of facial hair is what the prophet did and that these boys are emulating the prophet.....but that isn't religious is it?

They did not support the schools dress and uniform policy, but stated that these religious beliefs should be respected.

If these boys wish to follow slavishly the actions of the prophet, then they should be in a school which accommodates this practice.

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There will no doubt be a goodly few kids sporting hairstyles emulating Justin Beiber too Mrs P up Willows Lane.

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Backward, ugly attitudes? Islam didn’t invent em'. We’ve got plenty of it to go around in the western world as well.

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Islam aint a problem,never has been,its the Radicals in it that are,:eek:

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religion shoudl be kept away from all education and politics period its like having 2 subjedcts of fact been interfered with by a fairy tale yet having influence over the two sensible things.

unfotunatly religion is drummed into people from a very young age and its very hard to shake it off.Even the most hardened athiest will say things like thank god for that and jesus christ that hurt.It shouldnt be brought up until a person reaches adulthood when it can see it for what it is.A total farce from page 1 to the end of its user manual or bible as its called by some lol

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brouhaha - a confused disturbance far greater than its cause merits

Pinching a phrase from the Dragons Den

" I'm out"

School Beards.
 

Some folk have religion, drummed in from birth, other folk have football drummed in from birth.

Taken to their extremes, both can cause bad feeling and arguments!

However, I think I would rather go to a football match, how many religions serve pies to the fans at half time?
:)

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I'm sure there are, but if this does not contravene the dress and unform code of the school then it has no part in this discussion...and they certainly won't be consulting 'elders' to support their case.

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I did press the school. There policy was to respect the religious beliefs of other faiths hence no trips to other faiths places of worship. Now the school was respecting there views so they got told to respect mine also. Now i aint a religious person but i believe that all are equal regardless of faith as there is too much ill feeling etc.However, if we were to ever live in harmony then respect must come from all and not the 1

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And yeh can have a pint wi yer pie these days, Does that not tempt yeh Less?:D

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You really are kind aren't you?
Taking time out from your busy day to educate us.
I have a dictionary.......I know how to use it.
'I'm out'? Does this mean your participation in this thread is at an end?

School Beards.
 

Get thee behind me Satan...












...and push me in!
;)

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If there was a religion that served pies and pints sign me up. Sounds better than bread and lambrini

School Beards.
 

You see how easily you're persuaded?

Think for yourself, not the herd, why do Christians refer to each other as the flock?

Baa, you work it out, it shouldn't need explaining.
:/

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Isn`t it a shame Jesus didn`t have a beard, then all the catholic lads (or their parents) could use that excuse.

School Beards.
 

Isn't it strange?

Jesus without a beard?

Next thing you'll be saying he wasn't a Jew!

What was God thinking of when he created man?
:)

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Now, wouldn't that have been a good excuse for the muslims to use?

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He wasn`t, he was/is a figment of the imagination.:p

School Beards.
 

I can't imagine anyone making these things up, they must be true, we need an afterlife and God knows, we deserve it!
We all know sheet happens, much easier to blame it on Devine will, than our own mistakes,

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Every body knows your right Margaret, but its just another example of people coming to live in our country wanting use to change and fit in with what they want, I've only two words to say about that the first one starts with an f and the second ones off:rolleyes:

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No we don't, we know she's correct and in a perfect world we wouldn't even have this thread.


People have been coming into this Country for thousands of years, we just don't recognise the latest invasion or how successful it is because, we haven't been beaten on Home ground since 1066!

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Thing your a bit out of date Less we're getting screwed on home soil every day, that's why they're lining up across the channel to come to the land of milk and honey

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Doh!
:rolleyes:

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ray me:rolleyes:

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4/10 for spelling, however only 1/10 for effort!
:o

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You didn't see how many breaths It took for me to post that Less:rolleyes: 11/10 mate believe me:D

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According to one of the parents "the school should change the rules".
From the BBC website:BBC News - Two bearded pupils in Accrington sent home from school

The boy complied with the request, but his father said the school should "change the rules".

"There are a lot of Muslims who live near the school as well as Christians," he said.

"A lot of parents are worried about this."

About a third of the 750 pupils at the school are Muslim.

How long before the rules are changed?

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Bet his father didn't say "Why" the school should change its rules?:rolleyes: Wouldn't be anything to do wi Domination of infidels would it?:rolleyes:

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How the ell did this lot come to have so much power in this country.

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Wouldn't be anything to do wi capturing votes would it?:rolleyes:

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Dont care about their beliefs nor culture guys, sorry, rules are rules.

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ive been listening to the news and reading stuff on the net about this ... was listening to the radio this afternoon and they had an ex head teacher on talking about this .. and he says that when the kids started at the school then they were given rules what they had to wear, no jewellery etc ... they agreed to this when they said they wanted to go to that school ... so if I was the headteacher I would be recommending them to find another school where they are allowed to have beards ... their education is more important but they agreed to the rules when they said they wanted to go there and so knew the rules.

I agree with him. If they want to grow a beard then they find a school that will let them ..

My niece is catholic .. and went to a church of England primary school .. they accepted her because she had been christened and because she lived in the area and also her family had connections to the school ..ie her dad had gone there, two aunts had gone there, her sister had gone there .. and even though she was christened in the catholic faith and not the church of England they still accepted her ...

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Before Christmas me thinks:rolleyes:

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Growing beards in the time of their prophet was a practical thing - water was very scarce - even now, if they are travelling in Saudi Arabia and they have limited water supplies they will "wash" themselves with sand before prayers.
I am pretty sure that there is no requirement in the Koran that males should go unshaven.
If the rules are changed for this then lots of other rules will have to be changed about dress codes - we all know what happens when you open a can of worms.

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You have to open a much bigger can to get them all back in!

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Ya its very hard when people you're dealing with make rules on the hoof :rolleyes:

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they have backed down and as long as they have a letter from a religious leader they can keep the beards. Gonna tell the girls to get a letter from the hairdresser so they can keep their red hair. then 1 from the nail technician for their nails too! Where will it stop now?

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Well we all knew there would have to be a rule change, because we're all racists not letting people who weren't born here have all their own way, you will bow down and do as your told:mad:

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Until the Gov stand up to this type of constant pushing of our traditions, laws and rules they will just keep pushing boundaries further.

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According to the BBC website Councillor Munsif Dad has said : " I'm very glad that we are moving in the right direction . "

Local councillors have been unusually silent on the issue until now .

Where were they when they should have been encouraging discipline and respect for those in authority in the school ?

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What would happen if all the white lads grew beards because Jesus had one?

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This is another reason why a great country has become a joke,:mad: Thanks a lot politicians.

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What's annoying about this whole debacle is that the parents of two kids have held a whole school to ransom on the grounds of religious belief.

Ok, fine....but..

Eid means shutdown for Blackburn school (From Lancashire Telegraph)

A whole school is closed because the majority will truant because of the parents religious beliefs...what about the minority who will not truant, whose parents don't share those beliefs and are trying to earn a living, but will have to arrange and pay for childcare or lose 3 days wages.

This is what winds people up...it's always a one way climbdown...it's all give..give..give..and no take!

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surprise surprise he is a labour councillor

Councillors - Munsif Dad

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id say ok fair play now get on that cross and heres a few holes in your hands and feet to complete the look

and to keep things authentic for them id ban no-nails from the school they can have popper nails

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id say i gave a crap just as much as if all the brown lads grew beards because mo had... crap thread has run its course

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Back down on Human rights grounds? Lifted from this mornings "Torygraph".

Bearded Muslim schoolboys barred from class allowed to return because of human rights - Telegraph

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Oooh!! Who's a proper grumpy Bear this morning "R"? :)

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You caught me!

Yah. Been listening to wind chimes or something like it out back for the best part of 8 hours... :(

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Yes , and for the Hyndburn Council ward of Spring Hill , where I live , and for the LCC ward of Accrington West .

I look forward to speaking to him if he comes knocking on my door asking for my support when he is next up for re-election . ;)

Reading between the lines , I think that the school governors were prepared to stand by their policy , having had the pupils taught in isolation and then excluding them from the school and not allowing them to return unless they were clean shaven .

Why the U - turn ? I am sure that the intervention of the Bishop of Salford , within whose diocese Accrington is situated , has been crucial .

From the BBC website I quote : " The Bishop of Salford advised governors to work with the Islamic community and "support boys who are genuinely and fully committed to their faith".

It's fine for the bishop to start dictating from his ivory tower in Wardley Hall , Worsley , but this mess is just playing into the hands of such as are to be found in the BNP and EDL , and this whole business can have done nothing but harm to relations within the school and to the morale of the staff and governors .

Not a very happy situation . :mad:

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so...now this schools uniform policy has been shot to pieces by these boys...how long will it be before some boys or girls flout the uniform/dress/behaviour policy by going to school with blue hair..or a wild haircut...and thy cite some bit of ECHR policy and are allowed to get away with it?

When these muslim boys first joined the school, they would have been made aware of uniform/behaviour policy...but I guess at 11 the parents didn't think of the hairy faces they might have in a few short years time.
They should have been told to move schools...to schools which feel comfortable with such things.
This decision undermines the authority of the school and its governors.

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Agree 100%, according to JCB, seems the Bishop Of Salford has had a hand in this?:mad:

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How ironic that the new Muslim faith academy somewhere down south, which was featured on Newsnight yesterday, insists that all it's female teachers of all faiths must now wear head covering! These are the school rules. What chance do you think of their "human rights" being supported by the EU busybodies?

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Absolutely none......which is why it is so galling. There is only take...no give...and they do not tolerate any faith but their own.

Similarly a school in Derby had these rules too....I'm sure that I read that Ofsted had stepped in and closed it..althought they did say it was 'temporary'.

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They could move to this school in Blackburn, which seems to arrange its holidays around the muslim calendar, rather than the traditional way.

Eid means shutdown for Blackburn school (From Lancashire Telegraph)

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On the BBC News website the head of Mount Carmel , Mr Bowers , is quoted as saying : " The Bishop of Salford advised governors to work with the Islamic community and "support boys who are genuinely and fully committed to their faith" " .

I fail to see what the European Convention of Human Rights has to do with .

In France and in Belgium the wearing of the burqa is banned in public places . I am not aware that the French or the Belgians are having problems with the European Convention of Human Rights because of this ban .

I do not see why we should have problems with the ECHR because of a ban on school children growing beards .

This issue should never have arisen in the first place .

There are various traditions in Islam as there are in Christianity . Some Muslims quote the words of Mohammad , not found in the Quran , that Muslim males should grow beards . I respect the beliefs of these Muslims in this matter . When the school was first faced with this issue , the governors should have consulted leading Muslims to clarify the matter . Having discovered that some Muslims do grow beards for religious reasons , out of respect for the beliefs of those Muslim pupils who adhere to these beliefs , they should have adapted their policy on dress and appearance to allow for this. This is now the policy of the school . With a little bit of foresight this hoo-ha need never have arisen .

I know it is easy to be wise after the event . That is why I still hold to the view that , while the dress and appearance code of the school stated that pupils be clean shaven , all pupils should have been made to abide by that code , even though that code should have been changed when it was discovered that it conflicted with the religious beliefs of some of the pupils .

"Well, here's another fine mess you've gotten me into." :whack: