The Coppice
- Thread starter stanleyphil
- Start date
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- heritage and history
Not sure who the mythical spy is meant to be, but I can find my own way to the Heritage and History section once in a while.
Let's go along for a moment with the notion that the Gazette reporter imagined seeing the Pals digging trenches. Here's Bill Turner writing in 'Accrington Pals Trail' about the Coppice (page 144): "The flat top of the hill was the scene, in 1914 and 1915, of Company manoeuvres. Evidence of trench digging still remains."
Alphaeus Casey's diary - he was with the Sheffield City Battalion - mentions trench digging in January 1915, but maybe the weather was better in Yorkshire.
Sheffield City Battalion | Alphaeus Casey's Diary | January 1915
Thanks for the note on Tom Catterall but the Medal Rolls don't agree with you. I guess the number 65599 on his service record was crossed out when he moved to the West Riding Regt. and was allocated a fresh number.
Kind regards, Andrew
Let's go along for a moment with the notion that the Gazette reporter imagined seeing the Pals digging trenches. Here's Bill Turner writing in 'Accrington Pals Trail' about the Coppice (page 144): "The flat top of the hill was the scene, in 1914 and 1915, of Company manoeuvres. Evidence of trench digging still remains."
Bill Turner always regretted that sentence, he was relying on other peoples memories who were not around when the original "Pals" were still alive, and he later said they were nothing to do with the "Pals".
Bill & I met several of those old timers, I have copies of their memoirs, not one of them mentions trenches until the got to Egypt, and more so in France. We went to France and Harry Kay came with us, showed us where he got his blighty one.
Thanks for the note on Tom Catterall but the Medal Rolls don't agree with you. I guess the number 65599 on his service record was crossed out when he moved to the West Riding Regt. and was allocated a fresh number.
Just type in the number, and you will find 65599 was issued to some one else. NO TWO MEN can have the same number in a regiment.
But then, it took you close on 18 months to discover that Barrett T.S., on Accy War Memorial was spelt wrong, and you still have'nt found the others that are shown twice.
Retlaw.
Bill Turner always regretted that sentence, he was relying on other peoples memories who were not around when the original "Pals" were still alive, and he later said they were nothing to do with the "Pals".
Bill & I met several of those old timers, I have copies of their memoirs, not one of them mentions trenches until the got to Egypt, and more so in France. We went to France and Harry Kay came with us, showed us where he got his blighty one.
Thanks for the note on Tom Catterall but the Medal Rolls don't agree with you. I guess the number 65599 on his service record was crossed out when he moved to the West Riding Regt. and was allocated a fresh number.
Just type in the number, and you will find 65599 was issued to some one else. NO TWO MEN can have the same number in a regiment.
But then, it took you close on 18 months to discover that Barrett T.S., on Accy War Memorial was spelt wrong, and you still have'nt found the others that are shown twice.
Retlaw.
Here's my final posting on this thread.
Regarding the trenches. Officers and NCOs of the Pals would have been well aware of the importance of trenches. The Boers had made extensive use of them in South Africa, the Modder River in November 1899 being just one example. Instructions on trench digging - with diagrams - were given in the Field Service Pocket Book issued by the War Office in 1914. Sheffield's Pals battalion certainly dug trenches on the other side of the Pennines in the winter of 1914/1915. We have an eyewitness account of the Pals digging trenches on Moleside in January 1915, and from other reports both in the Gazette and the Observer they almost certainly dug on the Coppice as well. It may be that all the trenches were filled in after the war.
As for Tom Catterall, I can only suggest again that you look at the Medal Rolls. It sounds from your reply as if you're using one or other of the Index Card collections on the web.
I guess I know some, maybe all, of the names on the War Memorial that are duplicated. I can't prove they're duplicates though. Maybe you can?
I wish you a happy Easter, Walter. You and I both want to keep alive the memory of the Pals, and the greater number from Accrington that gave their lives while serving with other units. I do it through a website which is available to all, you have your own methods. There are a number of us in Accrington, Burnley and Chorley who share information. We recognise that each of us can make mistakes, check the original records and come to the right answer. You are always welcome to join us.
Kind regards, Andrew
The Accrington Pals
Regarding the trenches. Officers and NCOs of the Pals would have been well aware of the importance of trenches. The Boers had made extensive use of them in South Africa, the Modder River in November 1899 being just one example. Instructions on trench digging - with diagrams - were given in the Field Service Pocket Book issued by the War Office in 1914. Sheffield's Pals battalion certainly dug trenches on the other side of the Pennines in the winter of 1914/1915. We have an eyewitness account of the Pals digging trenches on Moleside in January 1915, and from other reports both in the Gazette and the Observer they almost certainly dug on the Coppice as well. It may be that all the trenches were filled in after the war.
As for Tom Catterall, I can only suggest again that you look at the Medal Rolls. It sounds from your reply as if you're using one or other of the Index Card collections on the web.
I guess I know some, maybe all, of the names on the War Memorial that are duplicated. I can't prove they're duplicates though. Maybe you can?
I wish you a happy Easter, Walter. You and I both want to keep alive the memory of the Pals, and the greater number from Accrington that gave their lives while serving with other units. I do it through a website which is available to all, you have your own methods. There are a number of us in Accrington, Burnley and Chorley who share information. We recognise that each of us can make mistakes, check the original records and come to the right answer. You are always welcome to join us.
Kind regards, Andrew
The Accrington Pals
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I’m quite distressed at that comment Walter; (if I may call you Walter) At least 10 of my relatives including 3 Great Grandfathers served in the Great War as did great uncles and distant cousins at least 3 of them served with the Pal’s as did the Yorkshire contingent of the family.
When you do kark it I really do hope and trust that your work and that of those before you is passed on to someone who will care for it and preserve it for future generations, after all both you and Andrew or only custodians of something that bears the breath and fabric of at least 3 generations of our own people irrespective of whether they served with the few who made that sacrifice. I say a few because many more local lads served and died with many other regiments as you know.
I’m sorry you can’t see eye to eye because you both have the respect and gratitude of many people the world over.
Think on; you are the custodians of our heritage and words like “I’ll burn it first” hurt. You should know better to Andrew.
When you do kark it I really do hope and trust that your work and that of those before you is passed on to someone who will care for it and preserve it for future generations, after all both you and Andrew or only custodians of something that bears the breath and fabric of at least 3 generations of our own people irrespective of whether they served with the few who made that sacrifice. I say a few because many more local lads served and died with many other regiments as you know.
I’m sorry you can’t see eye to eye because you both have the respect and gratitude of many people the world over.
Think on; you are the custodians of our heritage and words like “I’ll burn it first” hurt. You should know better to Andrew.
I'm afraid I don't understand why there is the argument - surely if you shared information then the correct information would be out there in the public forum.
When you do research into something it shouldn't be saved, it should be put out there so that we all understand the history of the place.
When you do research into something it shouldn't be saved, it should be put out there so that we all understand the history of the place.
I'm only going to be 40 this year but I am very interested in our local heritage from both WW periods and for the life in me I cannot understand why two grown men in this day and age can't find a happy medium. Everybody has differences of opinion on wether an opinion is correct or not but surely working together to iron out the creases is the best way?? Both lay your cards on the table and see what you arrive at....
It is also hardly fitting at a time like this to be arguing over trivial matters - WW1 veteran dies aged 108
It is also hardly fitting at a time like this to be arguing over trivial matters - WW1 veteran dies aged 108
I’m quite distressed at that comment Walter; (if I may call you Walter) You can call me what you want, I usually answer to ugly bastard
At least 10 of my relatives including 3 Great Grandfathers served in the Great War as did great uncles and distant cousins at least 3 of them served with the Pal’s as did the Yorkshire contingent of the family.
When you do kark ??????? it I really do hope and trust that your work and that of those before you is passed on to someone who will care for it and preserve it for future generations, after all both you and Andrew or only custodians of something that bears the breath and fabric of at least 3 generations of our own people irrespective of whether they served with the few who made that sacrifice. I say a few because many more local lads served and died with many other regiments as you know.
I've been collating all this information for years, and spent 100's of hours in libraries and public record offices. Apart from sources of information which have now been either lost or destroyed, I am not the custodian, I just want to get it all together for my own satisfaction, if I can help people to find a long lost relative OK, but I'll be dammed it I will let Jackson have it. Most of the information is still out there in libraries and record offices. It just needs knowledge to find it.
William Turner beore he died, gave me his computer & left all his collection to me and the library, with a proviso certain persons could not have access.
I’m sorry you can’t see eye to eye because you both have the respect and gratitude of many people the world over.
I'm not interested in so called prestige of having a web site, just so some bone idle gits can rip off my work.
I met one of those in the library some years back, I had collected a lot of Accrringon's history in a lap top, when lap tops were like 1/2 dozen house bricks. This little git found out what I was doing and started pestering me for it, I got fed up with him so I said watch this C:\ Format
wiped the hard drive in front of him, he was livid, told him to f off, I knew what his game was, I do all the work and he gets all the credit.
I am quite capable of doing it again, if I thought he would get his hands on it.
Retlaw.
Think on; you are the custodians of our heritage and words like “I’ll burn it first” hurt. You should know better to Andrew.[/quote]
At least 10 of my relatives including 3 Great Grandfathers served in the Great War as did great uncles and distant cousins at least 3 of them served with the Pal’s as did the Yorkshire contingent of the family.
When you do kark ??????? it I really do hope and trust that your work and that of those before you is passed on to someone who will care for it and preserve it for future generations, after all both you and Andrew or only custodians of something that bears the breath and fabric of at least 3 generations of our own people irrespective of whether they served with the few who made that sacrifice. I say a few because many more local lads served and died with many other regiments as you know.
I've been collating all this information for years, and spent 100's of hours in libraries and public record offices. Apart from sources of information which have now been either lost or destroyed, I am not the custodian, I just want to get it all together for my own satisfaction, if I can help people to find a long lost relative OK, but I'll be dammed it I will let Jackson have it. Most of the information is still out there in libraries and record offices. It just needs knowledge to find it.
William Turner beore he died, gave me his computer & left all his collection to me and the library, with a proviso certain persons could not have access.
I’m sorry you can’t see eye to eye because you both have the respect and gratitude of many people the world over.
I'm not interested in so called prestige of having a web site, just so some bone idle gits can rip off my work.
I met one of those in the library some years back, I had collected a lot of Accrringon's history in a lap top, when lap tops were like 1/2 dozen house bricks. This little git found out what I was doing and started pestering me for it, I got fed up with him so I said watch this C:\ Format
wiped the hard drive in front of him, he was livid, told him to f off, I knew what his game was, I do all the work and he gets all the credit.
I am quite capable of doing it again, if I thought he would get his hands on it.
Retlaw.
Think on; you are the custodians of our heritage and words like “I’ll burn it first” hurt. You should know better to Andrew.[/quote]
I'm doing this because I want to, I can do with it as I please.
If you want to understand the history of the place, why don't look for it, instead of relying on others to do it for you.
Retlaw.
I'm so sorry you feel that way Retlaw. You have provided me with info and I have reciprocated with some photo's - and I thanked you at the time for that.
If everybody was able to spend the time searching for things like what you do then there are a lot of other things that wouldn't be done.
I am a walk leader for Hyndburn Ramblers, I am on the committee too, but if I had the attitude you seem to take then I would be saying "If you want a walk in the country go yourself, why should I lead?". I lead because I know others don't have the confidence to do so or maybe they can't read a map so don't know how to follow paths. It is all my choice to volunteer to help them enjoy something they would otherwise be ignorant of.
Maybe some people don't understand search criteria on the web - it can get confusing. Maybe when they look at some websites the amount of info is so confusing they just don't understand what they need to do.
If you are able to help those who can't do it by themselves then I think you should seriously think about doing so. If, like you say, you would rather destroy valuable information collated together in one place just for the sake that you don't uphold a difference of opinion then I think it is very small-minded and selfish of you.
If, like you say, the information is already out there then you are indeed to be commended for your efforts and I, for one, would be one of the first to do so. There are a hell of a lot of people who would love to be able to do this type of thing but cannot do so for innumerable reasons.
I have already stated that I personally think your attitude to destroy the work is wrong and seriously hope you have a change of heart. The subject matter is surely the one that should make you see that life is too short for vendetta's. They lead to Wars....
If everybody was able to spend the time searching for things like what you do then there are a lot of other things that wouldn't be done.
I am a walk leader for Hyndburn Ramblers, I am on the committee too, but if I had the attitude you seem to take then I would be saying "If you want a walk in the country go yourself, why should I lead?". I lead because I know others don't have the confidence to do so or maybe they can't read a map so don't know how to follow paths. It is all my choice to volunteer to help them enjoy something they would otherwise be ignorant of.
Maybe some people don't understand search criteria on the web - it can get confusing. Maybe when they look at some websites the amount of info is so confusing they just don't understand what they need to do.
If you are able to help those who can't do it by themselves then I think you should seriously think about doing so. If, like you say, you would rather destroy valuable information collated together in one place just for the sake that you don't uphold a difference of opinion then I think it is very small-minded and selfish of you.
If, like you say, the information is already out there then you are indeed to be commended for your efforts and I, for one, would be one of the first to do so. There are a hell of a lot of people who would love to be able to do this type of thing but cannot do so for innumerable reasons.
I have already stated that I personally think your attitude to destroy the work is wrong and seriously hope you have a change of heart. The subject matter is surely the one that should make you see that life is too short for vendetta's. They lead to Wars....
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[Maybe some people don't understand search criteria on the web - it can get confusing. Maybe when they look at some websites the amount of info is so confusing they just don't understand what they need to do.
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Thats just it WEB sites, every body rushing to have a website, no matter whether the info is correct or not.
I've seen a lot of tripe about WW1 on the web.
If you are able to help those who can't do it by themselves then I think you should seriously think about doing so.
----------------
I have helped a great many people find their long lost father or grandfather who served in WW1, with a lot more info than be found on any website.
------------------
then I think it is very small-minded and selfish of you.
If, like you say, the information is already out there then you are indeed to be commended for your efforts and I, for one, would be one of the first to do so.
-------------------
Not small minded or selfish, as the many people who I have helped can attest. More like bloody minded and determined not to be ripped of.
To give you an example, when I was doing research on old place names, village names and trades, I was in contact with a society in America, one of them was interested in the old trades I had collected, they asked for a copy and gave assurance it would be for personal use only, guess what, within 6 months it was on the web, under some one elses name, I know its mine, because of the 2 deliberate mistakes I included, that same list is now on several websites, and still has the deliberate mistakes in it, so it proves to me there are rip off merchants around, who are not prepared to do their own reseach
---------------
There are a hell of a lot of people who would love to be able to do this type of thing but cannot do so for innumerable reasons.
I have already stated that I personally think your attitude to destroy the work is wrong and seriously hope you have a change of heart. The subject matter is surely the one that should make you see that life is too short for vendetta's. They lead to Wars....[/quote]
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I'm already well past my 3 score and 10.
The is no vendetta, just me, being determined that the 10 years of what I do for a hobby, is not ripped off for some others to gain kudos, with very little effort.
Would you spend hours in Accrington library photographing all the original WW1 newspapers for Accrington, Burnley and Chorley, running them thro a photo enhancement program, then give it all away to clowns.
Then spend 100's of hours adding the info to databases, of which there are the names of over 14000 men and women from Greater Accrington, plus over 3000 thumb nail pictures of them.
I've also aquired the service records of over 520 men and only just started on C's
Retlaw.
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Thats just it WEB sites, every body rushing to have a website, no matter whether the info is correct or not.
I've seen a lot of tripe about WW1 on the web.
If you are able to help those who can't do it by themselves then I think you should seriously think about doing so.
----------------
I have helped a great many people find their long lost father or grandfather who served in WW1, with a lot more info than be found on any website.
------------------
then I think it is very small-minded and selfish of you.
If, like you say, the information is already out there then you are indeed to be commended for your efforts and I, for one, would be one of the first to do so.
-------------------
Not small minded or selfish, as the many people who I have helped can attest. More like bloody minded and determined not to be ripped of.
To give you an example, when I was doing research on old place names, village names and trades, I was in contact with a society in America, one of them was interested in the old trades I had collected, they asked for a copy and gave assurance it would be for personal use only, guess what, within 6 months it was on the web, under some one elses name, I know its mine, because of the 2 deliberate mistakes I included, that same list is now on several websites, and still has the deliberate mistakes in it, so it proves to me there are rip off merchants around, who are not prepared to do their own reseach
---------------
There are a hell of a lot of people who would love to be able to do this type of thing but cannot do so for innumerable reasons.
I have already stated that I personally think your attitude to destroy the work is wrong and seriously hope you have a change of heart. The subject matter is surely the one that should make you see that life is too short for vendetta's. They lead to Wars....[/quote]
-------------------
I'm already well past my 3 score and 10.
The is no vendetta, just me, being determined that the 10 years of what I do for a hobby, is not ripped off for some others to gain kudos, with very little effort.
Would you spend hours in Accrington library photographing all the original WW1 newspapers for Accrington, Burnley and Chorley, running them thro a photo enhancement program, then give it all away to clowns.
Then spend 100's of hours adding the info to databases, of which there are the names of over 14000 men and women from Greater Accrington, plus over 3000 thumb nail pictures of them.
I've also aquired the service records of over 520 men and only just started on C's
Retlaw.
Ok. Maybe I should have put websites like the CWGC and other sites of that ilk. They are, after all, WEB sites.
I think you knew exactly what I meant but in your three score years and ten you are trying to justify your decision.
As for being 'ripped off'. There is always an element of risk in anything we do. If you are happy with the info you put out there then would you not be pleased someone sees fit to use it because it is accurate?? This then negates any need for you to be critical.
I also think if someone is going to 'rip off' your entire content then they would be very sad individuals. Don't forget - you have control over what you put out, including errors, so you don't need to put 'everything' on a site. YOU choose how much and what. If people want to know more about an individual then they can contact YOU.
I also cannot understand your comment 'give it all away to clowns' (and indeed think you are being blinkered by your disagreement with another local historian). Are the general public all clowns? I do resent being called a clown just because I have not been able to achieve something on the research scale you have. I am a complete beginner on the research trail, mainly for my family tree, and have indeed trawled through census' galore with my mum. Sites with info like you could provide would be invaluable to quite a few people out there. I doubt a lot of people scattered around this globe could manage to find their way to Accrington library, most have probably never heard of the place! But if one, just one, person finds that tantalising glimpse of their ancestor through the info you could provide in a WEBsite or by some other means - would that not make your efforts worthwhile??
I am sure there would be many more people interested in a site like that for lots of reasons and they would far outnumber the plagiarists of which you seem to be obsessed.
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Ok. Maybe I should have put websites like the CWGC and other sites of that ilk.
They are, after all, WEB sites.
I think you knew exactly what I meant but in your three score years and ten you are trying to justify your decision.
As for being 'ripped off'. There is always an element of risk in anything we do. If you are happy with the info you put out there then would you not be pleased someone sees fit to use it because it is accurate?? This then negates any need for you to be critical.
I also think if someone is going to 'rip off' your entire content then they would be very sad individuals. Don't forget - you have control over what you put out.
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If I don't put it there I don't have to worry. And there are people out there who delight in using other folks stuff as there own.
---------------
I also cannot understand your comment 'give it all away to clowns' (and indeed think you are being blinkered by your disagreement with another local historian). Are the general public all clowns? I do resent being called a clown, just because I have not been able to achieve something on the research scale you have.
---------------
You should know what I meant when I said clowns
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I am a complete beginner on the research trail, mainly for my family tree, and have indeed trawled through census' galore with my mum.
Sites with info like you could provide would be invaluable to quite a few people out there. I doubt a lot of people scattered around this globe could manage to find their way to Accrington library, most have probably never heard of the place!
-----------
Oh yes they do, I've had queries thro Accy Library, Haworth Art Gallery and Ossy Mills, from as far away as Australia, New Zealand and Canada, if they are researching ancestors in this area the will know of Accrington.
--------------
But if one, just one, person finds that tantalising glimpse of their ancestor through the info you could provide in a WEBsite or by some other means - would that not make your efforts worthwhile??
-------------------
No, I don't need the praise of others, I am my own task master. I was brought up, if a jobs worth doing, then do it right, if its a thou out its scrap.
Why should I go to the expense of providing a web site.
What would I gain from it. If I could create one loadeed with nasty little viruses, that activated when people tried to rip off, then great I'll have one tomorrow.
Both Bill Turner and myself agreed on the subject of websites, thats why no one has access to his material, several items have gone missing over the years, because he trusted people. Now if any thing should get lost or stolen I can replace it.
When you've got a few more years and experience in, you might learn that not every one can be trusted.
Would you buy a car off Gordon Brown
Him as ul wurk for nowts a bluudy idiot.
Retlaw.
They are, after all, WEB sites.
I think you knew exactly what I meant but in your three score years and ten you are trying to justify your decision.
As for being 'ripped off'. There is always an element of risk in anything we do. If you are happy with the info you put out there then would you not be pleased someone sees fit to use it because it is accurate?? This then negates any need for you to be critical.
I also think if someone is going to 'rip off' your entire content then they would be very sad individuals. Don't forget - you have control over what you put out.
-------------
If I don't put it there I don't have to worry. And there are people out there who delight in using other folks stuff as there own.
---------------
I also cannot understand your comment 'give it all away to clowns' (and indeed think you are being blinkered by your disagreement with another local historian). Are the general public all clowns? I do resent being called a clown, just because I have not been able to achieve something on the research scale you have.
---------------
You should know what I meant when I said clowns
-----------------
I am a complete beginner on the research trail, mainly for my family tree, and have indeed trawled through census' galore with my mum.
Sites with info like you could provide would be invaluable to quite a few people out there. I doubt a lot of people scattered around this globe could manage to find their way to Accrington library, most have probably never heard of the place!
-----------
Oh yes they do, I've had queries thro Accy Library, Haworth Art Gallery and Ossy Mills, from as far away as Australia, New Zealand and Canada, if they are researching ancestors in this area the will know of Accrington.
--------------
But if one, just one, person finds that tantalising glimpse of their ancestor through the info you could provide in a WEBsite or by some other means - would that not make your efforts worthwhile??
-------------------
No, I don't need the praise of others, I am my own task master. I was brought up, if a jobs worth doing, then do it right, if its a thou out its scrap.
Why should I go to the expense of providing a web site.
What would I gain from it. If I could create one loadeed with nasty little viruses, that activated when people tried to rip off, then great I'll have one tomorrow.
Both Bill Turner and myself agreed on the subject of websites, thats why no one has access to his material, several items have gone missing over the years, because he trusted people. Now if any thing should get lost or stolen I can replace it.
When you've got a few more years and experience in, you might learn that not every one can be trusted.
Would you buy a car off Gordon Brown
Him as ul wurk for nowts a bluudy idiot.
Retlaw.
Ok Walter, I don’t know what’s gone on before that left it being Bill’s wish that his work is not given to Andrew, I have received help from both of you in the past and I hope and pray that I will be able to again.
I wish you well and can only hope that when the time comes there is an individual that you can trust to pass what you and Bill have done over the years so that this work carry’s on, that or it’s placed in trust of the library.
Best wishes
Doug
I wish you well and can only hope that when the time comes there is an individual that you can trust to pass what you and Bill have done over the years so that this work carry’s on, that or it’s placed in trust of the library.
Best wishes
Doug
I was an engineer too and have the exact same attitude retlaw. However I also seem to have the attitude that if it's a work of art and a masterpiece that's exact and what the specification required then show it off and receive the praise it's due.
How many great artists would there be if their works were stuffed in a cupboard or destroyed??
You can create a password controlled site and you can implement coding whereby nobody can copy and paste too (stops the pics issue).
The only thing is you can't stop people from typing it out by hand.