Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Err...just out of interest..can someone explain (Re: Post #193) how a lead coffin can float away?

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

They said an iron ship wouldn't float-it did! If the weight of water displaced by the coffin is more than the weight of the coffin it will float.A lot of air was probably trapped inside the lead lining and it was in a wooden box. So it would displace a lot of water.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Most Iron ships are a hell of a sight bigger than a coffin. Think again. Do the calculations assuming coffin 6ft x 2ft X 18" with 1/8th inch lined lead; No way will it float, even with 1/16th inch lined lead and 2" Balsa wood will it float.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Thank you for more great pictures, and I have also looked at Owdbert's Albums, and they are so so good.......can't believe that I have been so lucky to find this site...:)

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

It must work on a similar basis to the stone coffin of St James, which, having been lost in a shipwreck in the Med, eventually ended up many years later at Santiago de Compostela in Northern Spain (allegedly).

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Now you're making me think!Don't forget it wouldn't be a lead coffin,the body would have been wrapped in thin lead sheet which was soldered to seal it then put in a wood coffin.However, I see your point, I'll have to resurrect my maths, physics and brain! That may not be possible but I'll have a go. If I don't come back with an answer don't be surprised.
Busman747, keep them coming, it's lovely seeing them.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

The Gazette office in Abbey St.....
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ystgazette.jpg

Is that a pub on the corner? would that be the pub that was asked about in this thread http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...ubs-53656.html

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

do ya mean just past the 3 rd lampost to left side of photo ken?:confused:

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Yeah, but could the one on the nearest corner be a pub??

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Talking of the lamp posts, wish I had a few of them, got a few quid from selling motorway columns and street lamps, them would be worth a fortune

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I agree, great thread and many thanks

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

not to my knowledge, though its limited.:D was one across the road ya can't see. think retlaw mentioned it.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

That building you refer to is the Red Lion, on the corner with Black Abbey St. Also on the photo I can see what was Hothersalls Chemist, Fosters Newsagents, and Palmer Rileys Electrics.

Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Hell Retlaw Palmer Rileys Electric is a blast from the past

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Does anyone know of a miss H.S.Brown who would have been in her teenage years in 1897 and would have been a "bad" girl? :rolleyes:

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k2.../10pounds1.jpg

This following letter is very much tongue-in-cheek but quite topical :Dhttp://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k2...hotos/aids.jpg

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Better get back on the subject of photo's, how about the Oak Tree in Abbey St? (No idea what the donkey was trying to do!)


http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k2...os/Abbeyst.jpg

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Busman, the third shot's at the bottom of the Coppice, looking towards the back of the bowling green pavillion that you can see on the right of the second shot.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

why is Bull Bridge called Bull Bridge?

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I imagine because of The Black Bull pub, which was in this area. It was where the back entrance to our car park is, directly facing Hyndburn Road.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

The second of those three pictures is the coppice as I remember it when I was a lad before all the trees were planted,to my mind think it looked better then than it does now

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

thats what always assumed, twas me owd local.:)

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Ya never banned from yon cashy:D

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

ok, thankyou :D

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Yep.:D

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

The top photo is young Bunny Barnes with his boxing Donkey, he would some times appear on stage at Accy Hippodrome with it.
In the 2nd Photo also taken outside the Oak Tree Inn, (on the corner with Birtwistle St), the chap, leaning on the side of the hot potato boiler, if I'm not mistaken is called Slipper, him and Bunny used to run a few enterprises together, such as selling fruit & veg and light carting, moonlight flits etc.
I knew Bunny and his 3 sons, the youngest was called Gilbert.

Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Did you know that in 1888, a dog in Accy had rabies? :eek:


http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k2...s/document.jpg

...........and can you remember this bridge? :D(Howard & Bleakley)

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k2.../Ormerodst.jpg

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

..........and finally (for tonight) the pillars are so recognisable but it's nice to see their original purpose! :D


http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k2...os/railway.jpg

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

What a thread, love the rail photo

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

How many of you are aware that Accrington had its own gliding club? All google references are from 1931 as far as I can see and the Secretary had his office (home address?) at 67, Eagle St. Check out the top photo, the other photos on the page are Broadoak, The Conservative club and at the bottom, Woodnook.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k2...tos/glider.jpg


This is an interesting article from 1931, you can buy a "sailplane kit" for only £95-00 what a bargain!!:rolleyes:


http://www.lakesgc.co.uk/mainwebpage...022%201931.pdf

Here is a small piece from the above website, it didn't take well to being copied and pasted into word, but you will get the drift....

THE ACCRINGTON GLIDING CLUB.
The score or so members of the Accrington Club who were present
at Be-aeon Fell on ~1ay 17 were much interested in the pel'formances
of their own llrimary glider. a fIansectt, which is of German manufacture,
and the Preston Club's glider. a R.F.D.. made by an English
South country firm. Unfortunately the Bolton Club did not get their
glidcr rigged, although they hud brought it on the Saturday.
Fi'I~ fl.i:;hts \\>'ere made by the two Clubs, three by Accrington and
two by Preston. on Sunday. and it was plainly manifest that both
Clubs possess ~liders capable of putting up some remarkably ~ood
performances and have outstanding pilots in their leaders-AccringtOll
in Mr. Maurice Bainbridge, and Preston in l\rIr. Falla. A point in
common is that both pilots have had considerable ftyina experience
with the Air Force. having first flown in 1915.
Mr. Bainbridge made thre~ delightful flights. reaching a point
about 70 feet above his initial height and twice or so lifting on
uprising currents of air. He sailed across the valley at about 180
feet in hei~ht and altogether gave a clner display of control. His
times. taken by the President. Mr. Edgar Sharples. were 60 seconds
in his first flight and I minute 40 seconds on the second flight.
Mr. Falla had rather shorter flights. but they, too. y,'cre highly
demonstrative of the thrills of gliding. The glider was brought back
to Accrington by one 'of the motorist members, Mr. Croasdale, and a
few enthusiasts WllO had camped on the site on Saturday nigllt within

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Again more very interesting stuff Busman

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I have really enjoyed reading through this thread from start to finish - very interesting and informative. I sincerely hope there will be more to come. You have all taught me such a lot about my home town. Such a privilege to learn so much. For a kid of the 80's its been an eye opener. Thankyou!!

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Have a feeling Mr Nolan was connected with the flying club. Will make further enquiries.

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...79-a-4097.html

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Some really great photos there. Brilliant thread.

Colin

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

When did that sunken garden go?

Nice to see the old Odeon. I went there to see 'The Exorcist' (which scared the **** out of me) and 'The Life of Brian' neither of which were screened in Blackburn at the time of release, as our council banned them:eek:

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Wasn't somebody after a photo of the railway crossing the lodge ?

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

You might enjoy my blog then Dave

BLACKBURN PAST

Colin

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

How dare a Blackburnian join in a debate amongst Accrington historians? Well, I'm going to :) I was interested in this pub (Slaters Arms) as it was a Dutton's House. Good old Blackburn brewery Dutton's you know !

Well from my quick research Walter & co, the Slaters Arms wasn't 21 or 23 Whalley Road, that was the Hope & Anchor Hotel at numbers 21-23 Whalley Rd (still is from what I can gather).

The Slaters Arms was at number 13 Whalley Road and was on the corner of Marquis Street. I don't know if Marquis Street still exists?

According to my reference books, Whalley Rd began at Abbey Street. You then had numbers 1,3,5,7,9 and 11 (then cross Marquis St) continuing with number 13 (Slaters Arms), 15 (a temperance bar), 17 (once a newsagent), 19 and the the Hope & Anchor at 21 -23.

Colin

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

PS - I should have added that the above info came from the 1894 trades directory and the 1925 trades directory. All the directories in between those years and possibly a little later would give the same information. But by the 1951 directory (which is the latest I have), Marquis Street had disappeared. So odds are, it was demolished sometime between 1925 and 1951. Also (possibly because of demolition), Whalley Road was re-numbered and the Hope & Anchor then became numbers 27, 29 & 31. Not sure what happened there, can only assume extra properties had been built where others had been demolished. Complicated isn't it?

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

As far as I know Marquis Street became Broadway, the Slaters was across Whalley Road from the Peel's Arms (now the Broadway)

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

See posts 100 & 101 in this thread

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...s-39784-7.html

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Also have a look at post 168 in this thread

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Hi Jeff -- Yep, I think you're right. It's me, I only read half of the comments. I went back and read some others later and Bob Dobson had already nailed it (months ago). Checked out an old map later too and as Bob (or someone else) says Whalley Rd starts where Abbey St ends, sort of at the junction of Peel Street. Then you had No 1 Whalley Road on the corner, then a few more properties, then Marquis Street and Slaters Arms was on the other side of Marquis Street, then a few doors on again and you have the Hope & Anchor (or whatever it's called).

Cheers

Colin

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Hi Jeff -- Yep, I think you're right. It's me, I only read half of the comments. I went back and read some others later and Bob Dobson had already nailed it (months ago). Checked out an old map later too and as Bob (or someone else) says Whalley Rd starts where Abbey St ends, sort of at the junction of Peel Street. Then you had No 1 Whalley Road on the corner, then a few more properties, then Marquis Street and Slaters Arms was on the other side of Marquis Street, then a few doors on again and you have the Hope & Anchor (or whatever it's called).

I've marked the Slaters Arms with a little red cross on the map. It wasn't marked PH like the other nearby pubs, probably because it was a 'beerhouse' (that's what it's listed as in my directories) rather than a fully licenced Public House.

Cheers

Colin

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

This is an old thread, and the location of those those properties has already been sorted, they have also been mentioned on other threads plus photo's and maps. A couple of old directories does'nt make you a historian, don't know why you bothered.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Retlaw - you are cruel.

What criteria does qualify one as an historian?

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

It used to take 7 years apprenticeship to qualify as a tradesman.
I've spent more than 7 times that researching into the history of Accrington, and its people, spending a lot of time in Libraries and Public Record Offices.
I've got nearly 100,000 names of births marriges and deaths, plus census records, in this computer, going back to around 1100 AD, that does not including all the local men who served in WW1, which is close on 15000 individuals, all slowly typed in, from my original card index's, not scanned in or photocopied.
I think I qualify as a local historian just a bit more than some one who has a couple of trade directories.
I've also been criticised many times, for doing what I do, but its never bothered me.

Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Yet again Rude and Arrogant reply.

I really don't know who you think you are and why you think you are the only one that knows anything about everything to do with Local History and why you continue to rubbish other peoples imput.

Very sad

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I bothered Walter because in some of the earlier comments, you appeared to be reprimanding katex, JCB and others for asking perfectly reasonable questions and I took exception to that and thought to myself 'Who's this arrogant sod, telling folk off on a public forum'

I also thought ''Well if he is so obnoxious as to belittle others in public, let's just put him straight'' ie, you were about 5 properties away with your 1869 ''fact'' as the Slaters wasn't at number 23 as you boldly stated, it was at number 13. No a couple of old directories don't make one a historian, but they do make you WRONG. :tongueout

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Well said Anzac. I agree: Rude, arrogant, obnoxious, ill mannered (and I've never met the bloke).

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I have all that info too - PLUS all their phone numbers. Top that (I still don't regard myself as a historian though)

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I've also got a computer that can use different fonts and colours

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I think that you new members need to know that Retlaw is a very elderly gentleman who has spent a lifetime amassing material relevant to WW1 and Accrington Pals especially.
His knowledge of Accrington in times past is partly dependant on having lived it, and also from his extensive research on the topic.

He may appear a little brusque at times, but he has my respect, and I think that other forum members think the same.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Apparently, a lifetime wasted slowly typing masses of information off index cards, loitering in public libraries (my mum warned me about men like that), the inability to accept that you MIGHT not know everything about everything and an arrogant, dogmatic, frustrated disposition are necessary qualifications.

Which is possibly why the majority of people don't bother with local history.;)

Still, I do enjoy looking at the old photographs and have enjoyed the comments that accompanied them. So thanks to the person responsible for posting them initially.

Now, I'm going to nip down to the Slaters Arms to drown my sorrows and reflect on my sins. Whatever was I thinking of, questioning an historian.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

That may be so Margaret. My mother is going on 85, but she doesn't criticise others in public because they dare to ask a question or two. I'm surprised you manage to keep new members.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Those directories have more mistakes in them than a dog has fleas,
still if you want to believe them thats up to you.
And that to you as well:tongueout:tongueout:tongueout:tongueout:tongu eout

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Well aren't you a little clever clogs, seeing as telephones weren't invented back in the 1100's.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

How clever of you, you must now be in your teens, when do you leave school.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Which is possibly why the majority of people don't bother with local history.;)

Still, I do enjoy looking at the old photographs and have enjoyed the comments that accompanied them. So thanks to the person responsible for posting them initially.

Now, I'm going to nip down to the Slaters Arms to drown my sorrows and reflect on my sins. Whatever was I thinking of, questioning an historian.[/quote]
Those old photographs you are on aout from John Kelly's albums.
I've known John since he was about 10 years old, and worked alongside him for a good number of years, we shared photo's and information. Several of the photo's shown in the threads came from my collections.
Does that make John as bad as me.
When you get to Slaters Arms in Whalley Road make sure you go in the right door.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Please don't think that his remarks to me are anything more than friendly bartering; I think 'he's ace' ... LOL... will get in troube again for that one.

Just try and keep an open mind and get used to his style. If you ask him a direct question, he will pull out all the stops to try and help you.

Met him for the first time on Saturday, and found him absolutely charming.
He was very busy helping someone with (I think) their Ancestry queries, with great patience.

To me, he rocks. :D:D

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Just you watch it Medusa, your trying my patience, AND spoiling my image.
Met a few people on Saturday looking for their granddad,
good job I took my lap top, some interesting queries cropped up.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Maybe not down your way, but we've had a telephone in our house since 1066 (and kept all the bills). Me and Harold were on the phone almost constantly that year ''That French bloke is after invading again Colin, what should we do?''

''Just keep your visor on Harry and don't look up''

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Your comment that the Slaters Arms was at number 23 was from a directory, so you're being a little contradictory here.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Yes that's something that leaps out in his comments, he seems a very patient chap. Very tolerant of others opinions. He also seems very quick to form an opinion of people he's only just come across. He has me down as a teenager, which is very flattering in some ways. The reality is, I've been interested in local history almost as long as he has. In fact it was your very own Bob Dobson who christened me Blackburnlad, because at every book fair he organised, I would usually turn up at his stand asking for books, postcards and ephemera with a Blackburn connection. A little like Walt, I have spent thousands of hours in libraries, including Accrington's. I have an extensive library of my own, built up over three and a half decades. I have contributed to the Cottontown web-site, was an administrator on another Blackburn site and created my own site I have also done substantial research into the mineral water manufacturers of this district, contributing to other sites and publications and I've done substantial research of the breweries of Blackburn. Even with the local knowledge I do have, I don't regard myself as an historian and I certainly don't rudely jump down folks throats because they have dared to ask a question or two. You may regard that sort of behaviour on a public platform as banter, but it doesn't translate that way, when it is put across with venom. As others have commented, it comes over as rude, aggressive, intolerant and harsh. Retlaw may be an authority on all things Accrington, but does that give him a right to belittle or dismiss others input? We don't all have his knowledge of Accrington, so to see him cruelly putting down others comments, because they are less informed than himself, gets my back up.

Colin

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

It seems to me Walter that they aren't all locked away in Broadmoor.
Now I know why Harold got shot in the eye in 1066, he was looking up for the Vodaphone mast so that he could get a better signal on his telephone to ring blackburnlad; and I though mobile phones were a modern invention, you learn something everyday on Accyweb.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I suggest you read the posts again, I cannot find any of my posts on the Slaters Arms, mentioning that the information came from a directory. Specsavers have an offer on at the moment.
I don't use Kelly Directories or any of the others, because of the errors in them.
Also many Pubs and Ale Houses in different locations, have used the same name, over the past 150 years, so what a place was called in 1850, doesn't mean it has the same name in 1920.
If you want to solve a mystery, where was the Rose and Crown in Accrington, some of those directories list it as being in Old Accrington & others in New Accrington, even on streets which didn't exist.
It must have had wheels on it, it moved around so much.
Retlaw

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Hate to mention this again, but I have an old newspaper cutting on licensing laws, and lists all the beerhouses in 1869, and the Slater's Arms was recorded as being at No. 21, Whalley Road. W. Wilkinson being the Landlord. 'Course that could have been a misprint ... LOL.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Walter is a real Star in my book too Margaret, I've actually had the pleasure of meeting him on a couple of occasions and his wealth of knowledge is phenomenal, the data he showed me was unbelievable, how he has the patience to do all that research, especially at his age is beyond me. Okay he's a bit abrasive at times, but that's nout you want see the ding dong we have on another Web Site:D

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

With all due respect katex, your newspaper cutting was very probably 100% correct for 1869. The thread I joined in was discussing the premises in the photograph, which is quite obviously from the late 1920's - early 1930's. You only have to look at the way the old chap is dressed to see that. If you need more evidence that it is from that period, you can see the place was virtually falling down. Someone mentioned Broadway was created in the mid 1930's ? So the pub in the photo would have been demolished just prior to that date. Look at the signage along the top at roof level, on the Marquis St elevation, it reads Mercer's Meat Stout. Dutton's didn't acquire Mercer's (an Adlington brewery) until the late 1920's.

So as you say, back in 1869 the address of the Slaters Arms, whether it was the pictured premises or a premises further along could very well have been number 21, but that isn't really relevant to the location of the pub pictured, which was the theme of the thread.

Take a look at the little section of the OS map I stuck on here the other night. The premises I marked with a red cross is the premises in the photo(s). Next count the individual properties from the corner of Peel St, where almost everyone agreed was the start of Whalley Rd. You have number 1 on the curved corner of Peel St, then 3, 5, 7, 9 (then there's a yard or something), then the last property on that block (number 11), cross Marquis St and you have the Slaters Arms at number 13.

Pubs changed names at times, sometimes even changed house number / premises number, but I'm convinced that the pub in the photo was number 13 Whalley Road when the photo was taken (not 21 and not 23).

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I couldn't tell you where the Rose & Crown is now Walter, nor do I care.

I could have sworn that you referred to a directory, but if not, then my apologies. Where then did you source the fact that in 186? it was at number 23? The census returns possibly (they never contained errors did they;)). Not that it matters, as I have just explained to katex, the photo under discussion was an early 20th century image, not a mid 19th century one. At the time the photo was taken, the Slaters was number 13.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

1869 Newspaper, licence renewals. Slaters Arms, 21 Whalley Rd, Accrington. William Wilkinson, renewal granted
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

And you dismiss and mistrust the trade directories? Our national and our respective local rags never make mistakes do they?

What's that old saying 'Don't believe everything you read in the papers'

Not for a second saying they were wrong back in 1869 mind you, they were probably right, but as in my last two comments, it's information that is totally irrelevant to the 1920's / 30's photo that was being discussed.

Anyway, I'm trying to watch the football,so got to go. have a pleasant evening !

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Take a look at the little section of the OS map I stuck on here the other night. The premises I marked with a red cross is the premises in the photo(s). Next count the individual properties from the corner of Peel St, where almost everyone agreed was the start of Whalley Rd. You have number 1 on the curved corner of Peel St, then 3, 5, 7, 9 (then there's a yard or something), then the last property on that block (number 11), cross Marquis St and you have the Slaters Arms at number 13.

Pubs changed names at times, sometimes even changed house number / premises number, but I'm convinced that the pub in the photo was number 13 Whalley Road when the photo was taken (not 21 and not 23).[/quote]
There was a lot more property on Whalley Rd from the top of Peel St, to the junction with Marquis St. Peel St wasn't always as wide as that, and the numbers didn't jump the empty space, you refer to as a yard, empty plots which were intended for property, were included in the numbering system, when house numbering became compulsory in the late 1850's.
Your 1909 map may be right for that year, but thats all it is, right for that year.
There are many streets and roads in Accrington with gaps in the numbering system Warner St has been renumbered from top to bottom and bottom to top twice since 1860.

Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Why should a report on the licensing renewals be wrong, we all know mistakes are made in printed format, none more so than those trade directories, I've found many errors in the newspapers especially during WW1, even the same man reported in tha Accy Observer, the Accy Gazette and the Blackburn Weekly Telegraph, could be different.
To prove newspapers made gross errors can be found on Accringon's War Memorial, most of those names came from the Greater Accrington Roll of Honour, which has resulted in 11 men being named twice, through printing errors.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I think his danders up:D

Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Time for a truce please fellas

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Why should I back down when I know I'm right.
I've attached further proof that it was originally 21& 23 Whalley Rd,
The licensing renewals show it & the 1871 Census gives the same information. How much more proof is he going to need, before he puts his hand up.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I've already stated the licensing report was probably quite correct, but as I say, the 1869 report has no relevance to the photo under discussion. That photo whether you accept it or not Walter is either the very late 1920's or the early 1930's. As I said earlier, Dutton's didn't buy Mercer's until the late 1920's. The clothes the man is wearing are of that period.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

There was a lot more property on Whalley Rd from the top of Peel St, to the junction with Marquis St. Peel St wasn't always as wide as that, and the numbers didn't jump the empty space, you refer to as a yard, empty plots which were intended for property, were included in the numbering system, when house numbering became compulsory in the late 1850's.
Your 1909 map may be right for that year, but thats all it is, right for that year.
There are many streets and roads in Accrington with gaps in the numbering system Warner St has been renumbered from top to bottom and bottom to top twice since 1860.

Retlaw.[/QUOTE]

Heck Walt, you don't need a degree in town planning to see that the old 1909 map and the 2 photos match perfectly. In the second photo that shows both the Slaters and the Peel/Broadway pub, you can see they were more or less opposite one another.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Once again Walter. What relevance has the 1871 census got to do with a late 1920's /1930's photograph. There's close on a 60 year time frame there. I could name you many pubs in Blackburn that have been and gone, changed name, changed proprietors over the last 10 years, never mind over a 60 year period.

You are clutching at straws sir and your comment ''Why should I back down when I know I'm right'' just about says it all. There's not even a mere hint from you to suggest that I might (just might) be correct. It's that arrogance and attitude that brought me into this discussion. I took umbrage at the fact that you were (seemingly) reprimanding more junior members, because they dared to offer opinions on a discussion that you had already decided was done and dusted (even though it wasn't).

Yes, you carry on telling everyone you're right, produce as many documents you like (irrelevant as they are), but if people study the evidence enough, they will arrive at their own conclusion.

I've had enough experience when researching local history to know that no single source is evidence enough, there's a need to cross reference and cross reference again, but if some want to believe you are right, because YOU say you're right, that is their choice.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Who would of though Local History could be so intence.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Heck Walt, you don't need a degree in town planning to see that the old 1909 map and the 2 photos match perfectly. In the second photo that shows both the Slaters and the Peel/Broadway pub, you can see they were more or less opposite one another.[/quote]
I've never disputed that it was on the opposite corner to the Peel.
My argument is the number of the property, 21& 23 Whalley Rd,
both in the licencing renewals, and the 1871 census show the same man in the same prroperty 21 & 23 Whalley Rd.
1860, 1909 or 1920, the property had the same number.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Dont stop now Retlaw and Blacburnlad. I do so enjoy your little contretemps. Long may it continue.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I've never disputed that it was on the opposite corner to the Peel.
My argument is the number of the property, 21& 23 Whalley Rd,
both in the licencing renewals, and the 1871 census show the same man in the same prroperty 21 & 23 Whalley Rd.
1860, 1909 or 1920, the property had the same number.
Retlaw.[/QUOTE]

At the risk of repeating myself, the 1860's licensing report and the 1871 census return have no relevance to the building in the photograph.

I had a look in the ref library today (Blackburn) and every trade directory they have between 1900 and 1938 have the Slaters Arms as number 13 Whalley Road. Now bear in mind Walter, that if number 13 was wrong, it would throw out every number on Whalley Road (on that side of the street anyway). Now I could understand an error being made one year, perhaps even being overlooked when the next edition was published, but over a 38 year period, you would think someone along Whalley Road would have contacted Barratt's (Preston) and complained because their home, shop, business or pub was listed with the wrong address. I'm pretty sure, in fact quite certain that a reputable compiler of directories (they produced them from the 1870's - 1966) like Barratt's would have amended their mistake and apologised to all affected.

The census returns are usually completed / filled out by hired hands, for one day, once every 10 years. Often they would be scribbling details in semi darkness, bored to tears with going through the same set of questions at each door and probably wondering what they'd be having for their supper when they got home. Mistakes could easily be made and with very little scope for the scribbler to amend his / her errors. They probably walked away from doors thinking ''I'm definitely not volunteering for this next time around, was that number 13 or was I at number 23, oh beggar it, no-one will check''

If you came to me in 20 years time with the 1931 census return with who was at the Slaters then, I would still have my doubts at the illegible scrawl in front of me. I'm sure they have their use, the returns, but like everything (including Barratt's directories) they shouldn't be read as Gospel.

As we're putting everyone to sleep, I'm making this my last on this topic (thank goodness for that, I hear people saying), but I would say to anyone else either involved earlier in this thread or perhaps joining it in the future, don't accept my word, don't accept Walter's word (not even if he attempts to humiliate you, as a novice), I would advise you look at the evidence and arrive at your own conclusion.

Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Fascinating thread, and some interesting opinions.

The 1917-1919 army service record of Edward Marshall Crook shows his address as Hope & Anchor, 21-23 Whalley Road. If that's any help.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Thank you for your input Andrew. All the Barratt's directories I looked at today had the same address for the Hope & Anchor. I looked through about 10 editions, from 1900 - 1938.

I have just one directory from that period, the 1925 one. I'll try and attach a portion of the Whalley Rd listing. You may need to download my photo and enlarge it a little to read it.

Some of the names at various addresses changed from edition to edition, as you would expect, people moving house, businesses changing hands, properties being used for other purposes, but the house numbering didn't change and the Slaters Arms was listed in all of the ones I flipped through, as being at No 13 (the landlord changed over the years, but that's all).

Colin

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

My humble theory is that there are a few mistakes here and other people have just followed these mistakes. I think when there was that gap in the block from Peel Street to Marquis Street, the enumerator just counted all the buildings. Probably didn't have the door number on display.

Why should they change the numbers and then back again (Hope and Anchor is now listed as 27-31)? It would be obvious only a temporary gap.

Looked at the 1911 census and does show a beer seller there at no. 13 and a licensed vitualler at No. 19 (Hope and Anchor)which would be correct to line up with No.13. However, there are two entries for No. 13 ??... the second one being a Medical Practiioner.

Another emission on this census is not showing a 21 and 23 ... why's that I wonder ?

Mind you, it is also showing No. 31 as Dykenook !!

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Attached is the full page of the 1871 census.
Which also shows the addess of the hope & Anchor.
As for the Harrogate Tripe Dresser chipping in, he would be better occupied sorting out the mess he's made of William Turners work.
As well as the mess he made of the Greater Accrington Roll of Honour,
there are men in those Rolls who never existed & a lot you can't find.

Retlaw

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

thats me knackered it says 1971 william wilkinson census.:confused:

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Hahaha ..yeh, think Retlaw did a typo there too.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Grandson keeps moving keys around the board, cries like L when I stop him, thats the 2nd time this week.

Retlaw

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Can just picture it, tee hee:

Attachment 17425

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I suppose if they did change them 'back' at one time, there must have been some sort of newspaper announcement about it, as would be a big thing to do ... all the way up Whalley Road, and in the public interest to be informed. Not an easy job.. if it is there at all ... :eek: Or records buried deep in the Town Hall somewhere.

In the 1928 map, it is showing a large building where the demolished properties were. So could have been between 1925-28 ?

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Katex, as Retlaw pointed out earlier, vacant plots of land (or yard as I called it, which it appears to be) were only included on the census return if they intended to build on the plot. The key word there is intended, ie, if plans were afoot to build on the plot. If it was a yard belonging to number 11 say, which it looks to be on the OS map, it wouldn't be given a number, as it was part of that property.

As I said Retlaw was clutching at straws. I'm sure on some streets and roads (in any town or city) you could have gaps between properties ranging from a few feet to a thousand yards. The enumerators wouldn't give every vacant plot a number just because they were there and there was future potential for development would they?

Again, even though I said I was finished with this thread, I must stress that the early census returns have no relevance, or at best very little relevance to a late 1920's photograph.

As for two entries at number 13, a beer seller and a medical practitioner, that wouldn't be unusual in a property that size. In theory you could have multiple people living in a single premises. If the beer seller was only making use of a few rooms on the ground floor for his business and living accommodation, he would have had a similar amount of rooms on the first storey that he supplemented his income with each week, by renting out (or vice versa, maybe the doctor rented rooms to the beer seller).

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I take it the Tripe Dresser remark was referring to Andrew. Having no knowledge of either of you, I wouldn't know if that was an insult or a term of endearment. At a guess, I would say the former and would assume he is someone else who has in the past dared to offer his opinion.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Such puerile remarks go well beyond "a little brusque" or "a bit abrasive".

Let me be absolutely clear. The Accrington Pals website is built on my own research into primary sources extending back over more than 30 years. It has been supported by generous help both from countless relatives of Pals, and from military historians, particularly those in Burnley and Chorley, who believe as I do that discoveries are meant to be shared.

These are the facts, and I am not going to enter into a debate about them.

Walter, you would be well advised to desist from making any further slanderous comments.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

As I said Retlaw was clutching at straws. I'm sure on some streets and roads (in any town or city) you could have gaps between properties ranging from a few feet to a thousand yards. The enumerators wouldn't give every vacant plot a number just because they were there and there was future potential for development would they?
Clutching at straws thats a laugh, its thee thats clutching at straws.
The Hope and Anchor is numbered 27 & 29 to this day just as it was then, your numbering in the 1909 map is wrong.
The first from the top of Peel St then was number 3, and the numbers carried on from there, nu 5 is now a shoe shop, what later became known as Catlows was nu 19, then on the corner with Marques St was nu 21 Slaters Arms.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

You're clutching at straws again Walt. You either keep harping back 60 years prior to the photo in question, or (as now) you've leapt forward 80 years on from it. There was bound to be changes after they demolished half the town centre and created Broadway (or whatever it's called). They were bound to re-number at some point.

There is no shame in admitting you're wrong you know. If you prove my findings wrong, I can promise you I'll be the first to come on here, holding my hands up and admit I'm wrong. But I don't see that happening any time soon.

Your problem is, you have been regarded by many as some kind of local guru, because you had/have a wealth of info, statistics, resources and knowledge of your home town (and probably more besides) and because of that, you have let it go to your head and somehow felt because of your superiority on such matters that you can belittle others input with a smart quip, a put down and a few old documents, but then once in a while, along comes someone who can hold their own and you don't like it. Like one person said (katex I think), you should encourage their interest, not ridicule their ignorance.

It's been fun talking to you though and you sure know your stuff, but you're not infallible, as has been proven.

I honestly believe the likes of Margaret and Jaysay when they say you're a lovely man and I'll always have time for anyone that takes an interest in, has pride in and has a passion for the town where they live, but you really could try and reign in your put downs of others. It really isn't a nice trait.