Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Think he may have been the Landlord .. shows licences being issued in newspaper article of 1/1/1916. There again mentions a Thomas Doyle too.. (but not in what capacity) would have actually go and look at the article to confirm. And, dang, doesn't mention the address ...just the pub...grrr.

I just can't get my head around the fact that the council of the time changed all the numbers all the way up that long road !! Letters would be whizzing all over the place for years .. :confused:

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

There is no shame in admitting you're wrong you know. If you prove my findings wrong, I can promise you I'll be the first to come on here, holding my hands up and admit I'm wrong. But I don't see that happening any time soon.
I have no need to admit to being wrong, especially one who relies on Kelly's & Barretts trade directories for evidence, which are full of errors.
The numbers are there on the doors in question, plain for them with unblinkered eyes to see, they have had the same numbers for well over 100 years, go and look and see for your self, go in and ask the present day residents, you will get the same answers I did.
Why would the local authority bother changes the numbers on established properties, some of which have had the same address since property started to be built on Whalley Rd in 1810, & compulsory property numbering came in at the of the 1850's, even today when some of these properties have become double fronted the same numbers still apply.
Propably Nostrodmus made a prediction in anticipation of your silly argument ?
Retlaw

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Don't worry about it Medusa, I went this afternoon, the numbers are on the doors, still there for all to see, and no one has any knowledge of them ever being any different, the only person who changed the property numbers is yon blegburnlad.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

One thing that made me titter ... that according to the Barret's Directory ... No.13 was the Slaters (rightly or wrongly), and No. 15 was a Temperance Bar ! .. :D:D

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Firstly Retlaw, can I request that you stop editing my posts. Taking the odd line out of context isn't fair.

Let's look at this logically. You ridicule the trade directories as being prone to errors. My copy of the 1925 Barratt's contains over a thousand pages, so there is bound to be the odd error, but in no way are they full of errors as you say. Barratt's, as I mentioned previously were producing their directories for the better part of a century and are respected by most researchers I have dealt with. On average, they appeared / were published once every three years. They were not rushed, they had a team of people collecting the information for 6 days a week, 50 weeks of the year over a 3 year period. When a house or any type of premises changed hands, they amended accordingly. Of course if they went to press, say on a Wednesday afternoon in August and Mr Jones the butcher sold his shop a fortnight later to Mrs Smith the confectioner, Mrs Smith wouldn't be listed until the next edition. But by and large they are very accurate.

Now like I say, all the copies I looked at in the library, between 1900 and 1938 had the Slater's Arms at No 13 and the other properties, including the Hope & Anchor at their respective numbers. The only changes were to the names of the occupants or when a business changed (for instance if a furniture shop changed to a newsagent, not that that happened, it's just an example).

Now compare the meticulous compilations of Barratt's to the one evening per decade gathering of the census returns that you value so much. No contest sir, give me the directories every time.

Your numbering doesn't even correspond to the Army Record that Andrew posted. Are you telling us that when Edward Marshall Crook (RIP) enlisted he gave them the wrong address for his home, the Hope & Anchor? I can just see the cleric saying to him ''Are you sure it is 21 -23 Whalley Rd Edward?, I don't want to be getting it in the ear 90 years from now from Walter, because you've given me the wrong number of your home''

My (estimated) numbering from the map and the Barratt's directories numbering correspond with Edward Marshall Crook's numbering !

You say they have had the same numbers for well over 100 years, so was young Edward lying or mistaken back in 1917 (or whenever he enlisted, it could have been earlier). No, I think the lad would have known his address, I think it's you that is mistaken.

We are discussing the premises and their numbering circa 1930 (give or take 3 years), ie the photo of the Slater's Arms. All you have given us so far is evidence that pre-dates that period by 40 - 60 years and evidence that post dates it by 80 years or more.

And as for your daft suggestion in an earlier comment that Whalley Road started at number 3, all I can ask is WHY? Almost every other street, road, lane, avenue, crescent in this land of ours starts at number 1. Why would Whalley Road in Accrington be any different?

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

No not just me Walter, the Barratt's directories, Edward Marshall Crook's service record and more than likely the annual electoral registers of the time too.

You rely on your scribbled and rushed census return of 1871 and your even older licensing report. I'll rely on the well respected Barratt's of Preston and the well respected Ordnance Survey map of the period in question, as well as the service record of Edward Marshall Crook which was only 13 years prior to the photograph.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

By the way, I haven't changed the numbering at any point throughout this discussion, I have maintained since I started that No 1 whalley Road was at the corner of Peel Street and that No 13 was the Slaters Arms.

It is yourself Walter (and katex) who have moved the properties. Between you you have had the Hope & Anchor at 19,21,23,25 and 27 Whalley Road. My conclusion is, you are clueless.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Amendment - Between the two of you, you have had the Hope & Anchor at 19 -31 Whalley Rd

Comment number 279 (Retlaw) says it is 21 -23

Comment number 289 (katex) says both 19 and then 27 -31

Comment number 299 (Retlaw) says 27 -29

Well I cant contest the number of the Hope & Anchor, though you have me and I'm sure everyone else baffled by the above, but I will maintain, as I have done so from the start, the Slaters was at number 13 Whalley Rd at the time of the photograph.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Every day this saga gets nearer to becoming.....
....waterpistols behind the bike sheds at dawn ;)

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

nah its all in the interests of accuracy, and both parties think they are.:D

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

What I said was that the 1911 census had the Hope and Anchor down as No. 19 (no mention of 21-23). The Hope and Anchor is now listed as 27-31. Actually, Walter was slightly wrong on the modern numbers. If you go onto Google streetview, you will see quite clearly that the main entrance 'burgundy' coloured door has the number 31 on it.

Mind you, had to laugh at the entry for No.19 in 1911 census ... had the Licensed Vitualler down as being 35 years old, his wife 29 and their daughter 52 !
They are recorded as being married for 62 years !! Work that one out .. LOL

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

By the way, you can search by place on the 1911 census ...sure you know this. Strange doesn't mention no's 1 and 3 ?

Welcome to the official 1911 Census website

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[quote=katex;882788]What I said was that the 1911 census had the Hope and Anchor down as No. 19 (no mention of 21-23). The Hope and Anchor is now listed as 27-31. Actually, Walter was slightly wrong on the modern numbers. If you go onto Google streetview, you will see quite clearly that the main entrance 'burgundy' coloured door has the number 31 on it.
I don't know about the goggle (sic) view, but when I looked at those doors yesterday they looked black, not burgundy whatever colour that is, this is the one numbered 29.
Go and have a look.

Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Read my comment again katex. I didn't say it was you who said it was 21-23, I said Retlaw said it was those numbers. Look inside the brackets. I said between the two of you, you have it anywhere between 19 - 31. And you do, I stand by my comment.

It's not strange that your census has no mention of numbers 1 & 3. If the properties were vacant at the time of the census, they wouldn't list them. It's a collection of information with regards the people, not the properties. Well that's what I've always been led to believe. I may be wrong?

Not really about accuracy Cashman (though accuracy is important). It's more about making a point to Walter and anyone else that might read this thread, that he isn't always right, as he seems to think he is and more importantly, he shouldn't dismiss others comments, nor ridicule them on this or any other thread just because they offer a suggestion that might differ from his own.

He could have read my initial comment and answered with a polite explanation as to why he believed I was wrong. Instead he chose to belittle me and ridicule my use of trade directories (''Two directories doesn't make you an historian'' I think he said, even though I made no claims to being an historian).

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

You quoted the use of the 1909 map in placing those numberss on the properties, Nu 1 had been long gone before that 1909 map was printed, the first property was Nu 3, then the last property on that block was Nu 19, still is. As for adresses in service records, thats another great source or errors, found one bloke yesterday discharged to Pickle St, Church. During WW1 there were 1000's of clerks filling in forms, men from all over the country having to make sense of regional accents. Also we have the 1918 Absent Voters lists, men with wrong service numbers, wrong addresses, even men who had been dead for over two years.
I think you've jumped in on something you have little knowledge of, showing off, and your now trying to extricate your self and save face, by creating confusion.
Retlaw

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

It, actually, did cross my mind that they may have been vacant at the time.

To me, this is about learning through more knowledgeable people and am enjoying the search very much. Bet you and Retlaw are getting some pleasure out of it too.... :D

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Ged up stanley this aft kate that'll learn ya.:D

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Oh I'm confused am I? You can't decide the number of the Hope & Anchor between you, anywhere from 19 - 31 by your comments. Why not just simplify it and say you think it's on Whalley Rd somewhere.

I have no confusion in my mind, the photo was late 20's - early 30's. The address of the Slaters' Arms was number 13 at that time. Where's the confusion there?

I like how you have all historical references but the census returns down as full of errors. You would be better off taking all your census's and hanging them on a nail in the loo.

I didn't quote the 1909 map, I used it to estimate which property was the Slater's Arms. I used the Barratt's directories to quote the number.

Stick to the facts Walter, don't move the goalposts because it suits your argument.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Hate to mention this (well, not really .:D ), but the map you put up is dated at c.1890 by the LCC. Not that it makes any difference like.

Think I will grab me anorak and go and join Cashy at the Stanley >>>>>>>>>

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

give it a miss kate match off.:(

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Ya know if I had another lifetime I'd actually sit down and read this thread, I love he says he says arguments;)

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[QUOTE=katex;882829]Hate to mention this (well, not really .:D ), but the map you put up is dated at c.1890 by the LCC. Not that it makes any difference like.

Think I will grab me anorak and go and join Cashy at the Stanley >>>>>>>>>/QUOTE]

Wander back through a few comments katex and you'll find it was Retlaw who said it was a 1909 map. I didn't bother to check whether it was or not, I took him at his word (he's the historian after all, he told us so around page 16 just after I had mentioned the trade directories).

Don't top yourself yet Jaysay, I'm back to work on Monday and wont have enough time to be replying to Walter. But I'll be back next weekend to see who else he's offended;)

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Just adds weight to my argument katex, that the census returns aren't worth the paper they were scribbled on. I'm sure they are a great resource for tracing family history, but that's about all.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[quote=blackburnlad;882899]Ok .. sorry about the map, but I do believe they went on for a while before they were complete or summat ?

Yes, Jaysay ... perhaps Busman will come back soon with some more photographs to discuss to give some light relief... :D

These ancestry sites don't half grab your money too .. as you are never sure whether you have gone into the correct person until you get there.
I have established quite a lot about my own ancestry, so, yes, are good for that.

Love searching though .. next stop library to view Electoral Registers. :)
That should crack it ... well ...... we'll see. Enjoy your working week.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[QUOTE=katex;882910]Sorry katex, I couldn't answer your query about the maps, but I know a man who can. He will probably be back on soon:eek:

I agree, the ancestry sites can be expensive, not that I've used them much, but I remember it costing me.

Good luck with the electoral registers. Don't forget though, the pub photo was somewhere between about 1927 and 1937, so they will be the only years of any real relevance to this thread.:enough:

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[quote=katex;882910]I checked the Burgess rolls this afternoon, and going through them starting at 1900, 1910, 1914, 1920 & 1930, they all show nu 3 to 19,
19 being the one that later became know as Catlow's Fruit & Veg.
Across the top of Marques St, then 21, 23, 25, 27, 29, 31 and so on to the end of that block. In 1920 & 1930 there is no nu 21, that block starts at 23. The numbers are still the same today, so you need'nt worry Kate, the letters, telegrams & parcels wouldn't be flying all over the place, its all in yon blegburner's head, I think he also believes in father christmas, and if he harps on long enough, some one may come to believe him.
I suppose now he will come back, and after claiming the census's are wrong, that all the Burgess Rolls are wrong as well, only his trade directories are right.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Whoops, looks like game, set and match to Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Makes the infamous "Spire Farm" thread look like a teddybears picnic !!!

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[QUOTE=Retlaw;882929]The Burgess Rolls on their own neither prove nor disprove anything, except for the fact that Whalley Road had those house numbers during the years you have listed. It doesn't tell us where numbers were actually situated, other than the fact they were towards the bottom/start of the road. I mean, let's face it, Whalley Rd is a long road and obviously it would have house/property numbers 1 - 31 (and beyond).

Whereas the trade directories (Barrett's) have house property numbers and actually list the streets off as you cross them. For instance the example page I put on here. You know, numbers 1 - 11 then in italics 'Marquis St' and so on and so on, right along the road until the end. I've never seen an electoral register marked out like that (unless yours in Accy differ to other towns). Usually they just have the street name, the property numbers and those of voting age at the individual properties.

Now if you could photograph the one from 1925 and put it on here for us to view and if the names at the addresses differed greatly to the pages from the 1925 Barrett's Directory listings I attached, then I would start to believe you.

My problem is though, you could very easily photograph a list from any year after 1936 and then tell us it's the 1925 one.

The Burgess rolls on their own are Inadmissible Evidence I'm afraid :rolleyes:

But nice try !

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[quote=blackburnlad;883191]Agree there, Blackburnlad, and already mentioned this to Retlaw to see where an A.Westwell was registered in 1925.

Will go and verify this with camera, as neutral at the moment, but do trust Retlaw's word nevertheless.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

There was a lot more property on Whalley Rd from the top of Peel St, to the junction with Marquis St. Peel St wasn't always as wide as that, and the numbers didn't jump the empty space, you refer to as a yard, empty plots which were intended for property, were included in the numbering system, when house numbering became compulsory in the late 1850's.
Your 1909 map may be right for that year, but thats all it is, right for that year.
There are many streets and roads in Accrington with gaps in the numbering system Warner St has been renumbered from top to bottom and bottom to top twice since 1860.

Retlaw.[/QUOTE]

By the way katex, you question the fact that house numbers could ever have been changed on Whalley Rd (your comment about letters and parcels whizzing here and there). Now I realise that Whalley Rd is a damn sight longer than Warner Street, but Warner Street is quite a length isn't it? Well in the comment above, the historian himself declares that Warner Street has been re-numbered twice.

I think the re-numbering of Whalley Road has something to do with the creation of Broadway in the early 1930's and I aim to get to the bottom of it.

I'll be back next weekend to see what else our Walter has come up with.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[QUOTE=katex;883197]Albert Westwell he was called, if that helps !

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

yeh have started a very interesting argument busman, so ta.;)

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

By the way katex, you question the fact that house numbers could ever have been changed on Whalley Rd (your comment about letters and parcels whizzing here and there). Now I realise that Whalley Rd is a damn sight longer than Warner Street, but Warner Street is quite a length isn't it? Well in the comment above, the historian himself declares that Warner Street has been re-numbered twice.

I think the re-numbering of Whalley Road has something to do with the creation of Broadway in the early 1930's and I aim to get to the bottom of it.

I'll be back next weekend to see what else our Walter has come up with.[/quote]

As for the renumbering of Whalley Rd, look at these photos.
One was taken in 1914, the other last week.
Nu 5 Whalley Rd.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[I think the re-numbering of Whalley Road has something to do with the creation of Broadway in the early 1930's and I aim to get to the bottom of it.

The only difference in the past 100 years is they demolished nu 21, Slater Arms, and erected two buildings in that vacant space, nu 15 & 17. If your going to quote Barretts or Kelly directories don't bother, only you believes in them.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

More pictures of Whalley Rd.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Again Walter, these prove NOTHING. You have a photo that shows number 5 Whalley Rd back in 1914 (or whenever) and a modern day photo of number 5 Whalley Rd. yet there's nothing in those photos that identifies them as the same property (only the number is the same). Even if they are the same property, numbers 1,3,5 Whalley Rd may have been unaffected when they constructed Broadway, just as in the other direction of Broadway, the Hope & Anchor was unaffected.

Pretty pictures, but evidence that the Slaters was number 21 -23 back in 1930 (the approximate date of the original photo under discussion), I think not.

Even a humble Blackburnian like me can come up with old photos of Accy (Peel Street, Palace on the left)

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[QUOTE=katex;883197]Just a thought katex, but like I have mentioned in another comment, the Barretts directories were only issued once every 3 - 4 years. So there is always the possibility that A. Westwell may have moved within those 3 years or so. So instead of looking for him in just the 1925 Burgess Roll, you would be better looking a couple of years either side of that too, plus having a look at the adjoining properties to see if they correspond with the 1925 Barrett's. I mean one thing we do know for certain, is that Marquis Street and (possibly) a few properties either side of it were imminently going to be demolished to create space for the construction of Broadway (opened in 1936, so construction probably started a few years earlier), so the people in those nearby properties would no doubt have been on the move. The photo of the derelict and abandoned Slater's Arms circa 1930 being an example of that.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Myself and Retlaw have very little knowledge of the history of Accrington either, so you're not alone :D

Interesting fact about your house !

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

whoevers right the pics are great.:D

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

This thread looks as though it will run as long as "The Archers" and no one is going to admit defeat.
I look forwards every day to logging on and reading the latest episode of the "Mysterious disappearing house numbers"

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I'll happily admit defeat Gremlin, when Retlaw gives me some definite evidence that the photo of the Slater's Arms was No 21-23 back in the late 20's / early 30's. So far he has been unable to do so. I'm sticking with my initial conclusion that it was No 13.

We've had illegible census returns that tell us nothing. We've been told that the Hope & Anchor was anything from No 19 - 31 Whalley Road (which kind of contradicts his claim that the Slater's was 21-23) and the latest, he has shown us some nice old photos of the general Peel St / Whalley Rd junction, which again tell us nothing apart from at one time, the Hope & Anchor had a big arrow suspended above it and it's name wrote across the sky.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I'll agree with that, though the one of the shoe shop looks like it was taken by a child :)

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Your comment is even more childish. Looks like you are beginning to realise you have been wrong about the Slaters Arms being number 21 & the Hare & Hounds was 27/29. Keep taking the pills.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Nowhere have I said the Slater's Arms was No 21, that's what you said it was. I have said from the start that it was at No 13.

This is the first mention of the Hare & Hounds. Where did that come from?

You're using confusion as a diversionary tactic. It wont work. You were never a politician by any chance were you?

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I now hold the truth. Oh hek, what do I do ?

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

The Slater's Arms was 25 Plantation Street .

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

You evidently can't remember whats been posted previously, the Hare & Hounds hads been mention more than once in this thread.
I know I've said the Slaters was at nu 21, exactly where it was when it was open.
Don't blame us if your dyslexic with numbers. Look at the picture & count the doorwys back from 29, remember its an Irish run so only odd numbers are used, here you go 27 comes next.
Retlaw

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Nice one.:D:D
You missed one, Ring o Feathers, round ducks arse:D
Retlaw

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

See, totally arrogant and obnoxious again. You obviously really, really don't know what you are on about. The pub your arrow is pointing at the Hope & Anchor, not the Hare & Hounds.

I don't know where the Hare & Hounds was, nor do I care where it was and it hasn't been mentioned on this thread as far as I can see. Once again you are using a diversionary tactic to try and confuse us.

Yes your new (but old) photo is of the Slater's when it was still open, but still proves nothing. My argument throughout is that you were wrong in saying the Slater's was at 21 Whalley Rd, because it wasn't. It was at number 13 Whalley Rd, on the corner of Marquis St and as Bob Dobson says, was demolished to make way for the construction of Broadway. That would have been sometime in the late 20's or more probable the early 30's, which I have been saying from the start. Broadway was opened to traffic on 30th June 1936 and as I've mentioned elsewhere, preparation work and demolition would have started a couple of years earlier (early 30's maybe). So a few of the nearby properties like the Slater's would have been vacated and left to fall apart even earlier, so like I have said previously, possibly late 20's - early 30's.

I am of Irish descent, my mother being a Dubliner and I take a little (though not much) offence at your comment ''remember it's an Irish run''

It was very probably Irish engineers and Irish labour that built Broadway.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

One interesting fact, for me anyway, your photo shows that The Slater's was once owned by The Blackburn Brewery Company (Swan Brewery), which were another brewery that Dutton's (first Slater's photo) bought out in the late 20's. So for Dutton's to go and install new signage, as on the first photo, shows the Slater's must have had a few years of life left in it when they bought out the Blackburn Brewery Co (1928).

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Is number 8 Monarch Street Ossy still there, or is it now number 10:D:D

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[quote=blackburnlad;883204]Alred, actually.

[quote=blackburnlad;883538] It was at number 13 Whalley Rd, on the corner of Marquis St and as Bob Dobson says, was demolished to make way for the construction of Broadway. That would have been sometime in the late 20's or more probable the early 30's, which I have been saying from the start. Broadway was opened to traffic on 30th June 1936 and as I've mentioned elsewhere, preparation work and demolition would have started a couple of years earlier (early 30's maybe). So a few of the nearby properties like the Slater's would have been vacated and left to fall apart even earlier, so like I have said previously, possibly late 20's - early 30's.

quote]

Moreorless, except the Burgess Rolls still showed Alfred Westwell still living there in 1937 ... and that property did not show up in 1938.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[QUOTE=katex;883197]In this comment you agreed with me katex, in that the Burgess Rolls are useless as evidence on their own. You said you would verify it with camera???

Not quite sure what you are saying in your latest comment (#354) :confused: Could you elaborate please?

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Ok ... only fair to do so.
Photo of the Burgess Roll in 1925 attached.

The numbers changed to what they are now in 1948.
Have a sort of theory about why.
Attachment 17456

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[quote=blackburnlad;883567]That the Slater's Arms was not pulled down until a year after Broadway opened.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[quote=katex;883549] This is the only plan I can find of that site. It comes from the Planning Office, and is dated 1938.
Those Burgess Rolls show people who are qualified to vote, the address shown is not necessarily where they live, just what qualifies them to be in the voters list. Some also have a J alongside their entry, which qualifies them to be called for jury service.
Retlaw

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[QUOTE=katex;883577]Thanks for this katex.

Attached is a grainy old photo of that junction. Hopefully you can make out some of the names along the end building, J. L. Haworth & Co, H.Walmsley & Son and Riley & Co.

Now please see the attached listing from the 1935 Barrett's Directory. You will see that all those three (Haworth's, Walmsley's and Riley's) were all listed as being at Number 11 Whalley Rd, which was Steinway House. You then have Marquis Street and over the street, you can see the gable of The Slater's Arms at Number 13 (and listed in the directory as being number 13).

The original photo we have been discussing, would have been taken around the same time as the Barrett's Directory listing and wouldn't have been Number 23 as Walter said (which is what brought me into this debate), but would have been Number 13 (which is what I've been saying all along).

No Barrett's directories don't make one an historian, as Walter rudely pointed out to me when I first mentioned them, on page 16 of this thread, but they are a damn sight more accurate than his census returns or his licensing reports.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Another picture to add further confusion to Whalley Rd.
Retlaw.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Is that not where the "Canine Club" now is?

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

There is no confusion. If my last photo and list don't convince you that The Slater's was at Number 13 Whalley Rd when the dilapidated photo was taken (and not 23 as you said), then nothing will convince you.

The directories of the time say it was No 13, the number of properties on the old OS map point to it being No 13, the electoral registers katex has checked out have a Mr A Westwell at No 13 and my last photograph has Steinway House (the name is atop the building) as No 11, therefore common sense should tell you the next property (just over Marquis St) on Whalley Rd is No 13.

Even the evidence looked at coming down Whalley Rd has The Slater's at No 13. The directories have The Hope & Anchor at 21 - 23 (sometimes 19,21 & 23), now work backwards and The Slaters is No 13. Take the young soldiers army record that Andrew gave us, he gives his address as the Hope & Anchor 21 - 23 Whalley Rd. Work back again and The Slater's is No 13.

I don't care what number The Hope & Anchor is now, but back in the time of the dilapidated Slater's photo, the Hope was No 21- 23, making the Slater's Arms on the corner, just lower down by three properties NUMBER 13.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I dont understand why the photo is up on thread no. 360 - its Abbey Street!

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Attached is a grainy old photo of that junction. Hopefully you can make out some of the names along the end building, J. L. Haworth & Co, H.Walmsley & Son and Riley & Co.

Now please see the attached listing from the 1935 Barrett's Directory. You will see that all those three (Haworth's, Walmsley's and Riley's) were all listed as being at Number 11 Whalley Rd, which was Steinway House.

Could I just ask, why would 3 completely seperate shops all be listed as no. 11? Seems a bit odd.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

thats what i said.:);)

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Deffo Abbey St - bought two fireplaces there in 1961.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Brown n Catlows? me classmate started yon easter 63 as apprentice plumber.;):)

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I don't care what number The Hope & Anchor is now, but back in the time of the dilapidated Slater's photo, the Hope was No 21- 23, making the Slater's Arms on the corner, just lower down by three properties NUMBER 13.[/quote]
Ok so you don't care what the numbering sysetm is today, and evidently you don't believe the old licensing records or the 1871 census returns.
Then how come the numbers on that block of Whalley Rd, have exactly the same numbers they had then, very large coincidence.
You have'nt answered that.
The Hope & Anchor was 27/29 then & still is, count the doorways back down from there, and 23 is still standing. Nu 21 is the one thats missing, its the vacant plot which is now occupied by a large ornamental plant pot.
You can rant as much as you like, but the numbers were and still are as they always were. Your flogging a dead horse.
Retlaw

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

That woke you up did'nt it.:D:D

Retlaw

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

It's not that odd Atarah. If you look on the old map (#244), you will see that the original Number 11 Whalley Rd had a substantial yard area. It is also pretty evident on one of the photos Walter put up, you can see the wall.

Now I don't know when Steinway House was built, but you can see by comparing the photos that it was built on that end plot, just before Marquis St. The plot of the original Number 11 (more or less)

Steinway (as in the maker of pianos) House was built by Haworth's who were a music dealer. Their advertisement of the time boasted and I qoute ''11,000 Sq Feet of floor space. Always more than 100 pianos in stock. Recital hall to seat 132 people. Radio Department and a stock of 14,000 records'' So it was a huge place.

Now, my guess is, as time went on and they didn't need as much space, due to a decline in business or whatever, they rented part of their property out to other business's, Walmsley's being one and Riley & Co being another (at the time of the last photo I uploaded). For postal purposes all their addresses would have been Steinway House 11 Whalley Rd. The postman would have to be a bit thick if he had a letter / parcel for Messrs Walmsley and he stuck it through Haworth's letterbox just because they owned the building. Even if they received each others mail from time to time (which I doubt), it would be a case of ''Oh this one is for Riley & Co, not us, I'll pop it next door''.

It happens to this day were more than one business share a large property and I'm sure they devise a system whereby they distinguish one business from another for a variety of reasons, ie post, stock deliveries, business tax, rent, electricity supply, telephone bills etc etc. They all still share the one address. OK they may use a system were one becomes 11a, 11b and on, but not always.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Ok so you don't care what the numbering sysetm is today, and evidently you don't believe the old licensing records or the 1871 census returns.
Then how come the numbers on that block of Whalley Rd, have exactly the same numbers they had then, very large coincidence.
You have'nt answered that.
The Hope & Anchor was 27/29 then & still is, count the doorways back down from there, and 23 is still standing. Nu 21 is the one thats missing, its the vacant plot which is now occupied by a large ornamental plant pot.
You can rant as much as you like, but the numbers were and still are as they always were. Your flogging a dead horse.
Retlaw[/QUOTE]

Walter, I have proved without a shadow of a doubt, with a map, directories, electoral roll (courtesy of katex), an army service record (courtesy of Andrew) and a photograph that The Slater's Arms could have been no other number than No 13 Whalley Rd.

You have provided us with nothing but but your own rantings and a couple of census returns that prove nothing. We could even accuse you of fibbing. You told us the electoral registers, 1900, 1910, 1920 (and the others you listed) said A. Westwell was living at the address you claimed The Slater's to be, number 23. Well katex's photo disproves your claim.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Ok so you don't care what the numbering sysetm is today, and evidently you don't believe the old licensing records or the 1871 census returns.
Then how come the numbers on that block of Whalley Rd, have exactly the same numbers they had then, very large coincidence.
You have'nt answered that.
The Hope & Anchor was 27/29 then & still is, count the doorways back down from there, and 23 is still standing. Nu 21 is the one thats missing, its the vacant plot which is now occupied by a large ornamental plant pot.
You can rant as much as you like, but the numbers were and still are as they always were. Your flogging a dead horse.
Retlaw[/QUOTE]

Sorry, something else I meant to add to my last. Once again, you are referring to a couple of irrelevant documents. The 1869 licensing report and the 1871 census return tell us nothing about the photo being discussed, a 1930's shot of The Slater's Arms.

I have based my research on facts, you have based yours in the realms of fantasy. None of your documents or photos back up any of your claims. You just keep repeating that you're right and I am wrong, yet provide nothing to substantiate your claims. You have attempted to browbeat me into accepting your point, as you have no doubt done before, to others, on similar threads. On this thread alone, you have miffed off me, Anzac and Andrew. You had earlier tried to silence others, by highlighting their lack of knowledge while boasting of your own extensive knowledge. Bully boy tactics really.

You can keep on repeating yourself over and over, but for anyone interested enough, all they need to do, is take a look back as far as page 16, study the evidence set before them from that point and arrive at their own conclusion. Case closed.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Had a look at page 16, you quote.
the Hope & Anchor Hotel at numbers 21-23 Whalley Rd (still is from what I can gather).
That is where you are wrong again, the present day numbers are 27 & 29, as they were in the licencing reports & the 1871 census, why should the numbers on that block have changed to suit you, and then be exactly the same today.
You claim the newspaper reports & the census returns are wrong, so all the millions of people doing their family history, are according to you wastng their time, all those record are wrong then are they.

If that is so, what makes the records you keep quoting any better.

Retlaw

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Once again Ratlaw, you have taken one line from one of my comments and used it out of context. When I said ''it still is from what I can gather'' I meant the pub is still there, as opposed to the Slater's Arms which I had just mentioned a line or so earlier in that comment (which is long gone).

No I don't think the millions of people using using census returns or newspaper reports are wasting their time, but as you have proven again and again in your comments, they certainly shouldn't be relying on them. I did state somewhere amongst my comments that no single source should be accepted when doing research and emphasized the the need to cross reference and cross reference again. That is exactly what I have done with this little debate, cross referenced the OS map with the directories, an army record, the electoral registers and old photographs (one photograph that actually names some of the shops that match the directories and the Burgess Rolls of the time). That is why I am confident that circa 1935, The Slater's Arms was No 13 Whalley Rd.

What have you given as your evidence? An 1869 licensing report and an 1871 census. The photos you uploaded prove nothing, other than in one of them, the pub in question was standing.

It's a good job you are an ''historian'' (and I use the term loosely) and not a hanging judge.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

This comment also shows you for what you are Retlaw.

Atarah, Cashman and MargaretR all pointed out that your drawing of Catlow's corner was Abbey St and not Whalley Rd. So what do you do, put your hand up and admit you have made (yet another) mistake? No you make light of it and make out you did it intentionally to 'Wake them up'

Not so my friend. May I refer the jury to comment #299. You sir actually thought it was on Whalley Rd:rolleyes:.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[quote=blackburnlad;883692]I remember Haworth's where they had booths to listen to a record before you decided to buy it or not , but I can't remember it's number . :confused:

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

As I said Retlaw was clutching at straws. I'm sure on some streets and roads (in any town or city) you could have gaps between properties ranging from a few feet to a thousand yards. The enumerators wouldn't give every vacant plot a number just because they were there and there was future potential for development would they?
This is post 299. Nowhere do I mention Brown and Catlows as being on Whalley Rd, any one who has lived in Accrington any length of time knows the Catlows I was refering to on Whalley Rd, had nowt to do with fire places. Catlows sold fruit & veg, and moved into that building from their site at the junction of Peel St & Infant St. Most Accy Webbers have an Idea where Brown and Catlows was. All I posted that picture of Brown & Catlows for, was to see if Atarah was watching the thread.
Now your making a fool of yourself.
Never mind keep taking the pills
Retlaw


Clutching at straws.
The Hope and Anchor is numbered 27 & 29 to this day just as it was then, your numbering in the 1909 map is wrong.
The first from the top of Peel St then was number 3, and the numbers carried on from there, nu 5 is now a shoe shop, what later became known as Catlows was nu 19, then on the corner with Marques St was nu 21 Slaters Arms.
Attached Thumbnailshttp://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...aley-rd-1..jpg http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/a...-31-and-33.jpg http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...-rd-no-29..jpg

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Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[quote=JCB;884090]Certainly in 1951 their address had by then changed from Steinway House to 15, Whalley Road. Photograph in Bob Dobon's book of one on their decorated vans celebrating The Festival Of Britain and shows the address.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Well then I'll put my hand up and apologise to you for my misunderstanding and take back my comment. But as you were talking directly to me (not as familiar with Accrington as the natives) in comment #299, you should have explained in a little more detail:rolleyes:.

Anyway, it was just another diversionary tactic to cloud the waters.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[QUOTE=JCB;884090]I wouldn't expect anyone to remember the number of a shop JCB. I must have been in Reidy's in Blackburn a few hundred times, but I couldn't to this day tell you what number Penny Street they are at. Similarly with Mercer's which used to be on Northgate, I wouldn't have a clue what number they were.

The premises numbers in this ''thread'' were only brought up because folks were trying to place just where the Slater's Arms were.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

[QUOTE=katex;884097]Possibly so katex, which is where I think the clue to the present day numbering lies. You said you had a theory on that (1948 you mentioned), but you haven't told us your theory.

I have a theory too, but no proof to confidently say it happened, so I must emphasize that it is only a THEORY. I think that maybe (only maybe Walt), the businesses that later occupied ''units'' in Steinway House (Walmsley's, Riley & Co and possibly more?) became so established over the years that they warranted their own address. ie, one of them could have remained No 11, one could have become No 13 and one No 15. That would then have changed the numbering further along to what it is today. As Walter keeps saying, The Hope & Anchor is now 27 - 29 or something like that.

Now I know some will say ''yeah but would they re-number the entire length of Whalley Rd just to accommodate a few businesses towards the lower end?'' Which is a fair enough comment. But for all we know, there may have been other additional properties at various points on Whalley Rd that were built or converted over the decades (vacant plots built on, older properties demolished and built on) and maybe because of that, the Highways Dept or whoever is responsible for that type of exercise might have thought ''OK, let's re-number the whole Road while we're at it''

Like I say, only a theory and I'm happy to be shot down;)

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Bill Shakespeare, who lived across Whalley Road at number 12 once said:

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, (or idiots) full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Can you please both take a Valium, retire to a neutral corner and let this thread return to delightful old pictures of Accrington, regardless of their accurate mailing address??

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

JCB might be thinking of Colliers Court, which was reached through a narrow tunnel. It was to the right of the picture, hidden by the lorry. It was just on the Royds St side of the off-licence that Atarah speaks of, opposite The Star. I was once with Little Pom and others outside the off-licence, having escaped from the dance at Christ Church. I think she was drinking from the neck of an East Lancs Pale Ale, or perhaps a Babycham.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I agree, it's getting a bit boring now as both posters are convinced they are right and the other wrong.
More old photos please.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

If that does not sort them out , may i suggest a drinking contest at the hope and anchor , but hang on they would probably turn up at two different addresses never mind , pistols at dawn then:rolleyes::D:enough:

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

He'l loose then, I won several medals for pistol shooting, also 4 silver cups, in rapid fire pistol competitions. I also won the Taylor Shield for long range rifle shooting, on 5 consecutive occasions.
Retlaw

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Game,Set,n Match then init:D:D:D:D

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Do you have the evidence to back up these claims!!!

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Yes

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

It was never about correct mailing addresses really, more about making a point that Retlaw doesn't have any right to go rudely dismissing others input, just because he thinks he is THE authority on Accrington's history.

You're right, it is boring. It was boring from the outset.

I have good friends in Accy, as well as relatives still living there and I worked there myself for a number of years. I always thought there was some nice buildings and quaint little areas. But I have to be honest, at the end of the working day, the road in the attached pics was always my favourite road;).

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I did Macbeth at O level too.

Shakespeare also said ''A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool''

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Not really one for blowing your own trumpet are you Walt? Not only are you Accrington's finest historian (a comment on p16, I think), but you're also a brilliant marksman.

I won the 100 metres sprint at Witton Park when I was 12 (it must count for something).

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Think that does make a lot of sense Joe:rolleyes:

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Bet ya won the big whatsit compo as well:D

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

To achieve that level of marksmanship takes a lot of practice & self discipline, something you appear to lack.
You appear to have the biggest trumpet, and you like blowing it.
Retlaw

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Just to thread wander,Retlaw, and perhaps calm things down, did you ever compete with the police marksmen? If so how did you find them?
We were amateurs and thought we were good but they showed us we REALLY were amateurs!
What a shame the people safe with guns lost them, now only the villains have them.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

I've never actually competed against a police team, never knew they had one.
In the 1970's a member of Blackburn Rifle Club (Fred Cooper British Pistol Champ) did used to instruct the police in pistol shooting, most of them were rubbish at it, some did later become members of the club, and becme quite profficient.
Never came across any police teams at Altcar either.
Diggle Rifle club used to allow the GMC police to use the pistol ranges at weekends, it was more like a Wild West show, I kept well back when they were there.
Retlaw

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

To get back to the pictures, here are a few of the first house, Glen Wold, to be built on Queens Rd.

Attachment 17685

Attachment 17686

Attachment 17687

The babe-in-arms is my mother, born 1920.

A bit more detail Here

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

What a grand entrance door that is.

Re: Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album
 

Wow - Great pics ! Thanks for posting.