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Im sure you wouldnt get any stick on here they only do it to certain indivduals im sure your aware of who these individuals are, I guess they are trying to be clever as Royboy states which is absoulutely true no lies their. We need to have pity on them really for treating individuals in this manner, why cant we have respect for one and another at least and not bring clever remarks into the threads that are,I speak for myself now rude, personal, offensive and upsetting clearly against the forum rules.I am fairly new on here and have never in my life had slurs such as these recieved in these threads especially refering to my education bang out of order in my book. I hope i receive no more clever remarks i am willing to close the matter now. I came on here because i found it interesting reading and to get to know more about local politics. The majority of people on here appear really nice and informative and make valid opinions and are not rude or trying to be clever.

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Not really bothered Cashy............Been round long enough to sort the wheat from the chaf. :):D

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Well where you're wrong Garinda I will say so. However you are right. The issue if someone else was in control would they have done things different. The answer is yes. Independent or Labour.

Some people might feel allowances aren't enough and support the Conservative position. That's ok.

Two wrongs however do not make a right.

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I am very much in favour of the Freedom Of Information Act. But I would ask one question to anybody on Accy Web.

If somebody was seeking information on you, do you not think that you have the right to ask why they want that information?

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Face to face yes....Public forum no.

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Yes but also i would ask why not ask me myself instead of going down that route ... but then im only me ... not a councillor.

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I fail to understand what all the fuss is about on this issue and if one was seeking information on myself refering to the Freedom of information Act it wouldnt bother me at all unless i was worried about it for some reason which i dont think is the case with the person concerned, if you feel the need to ask why one is seeking the information then yes why not, thats my view on it.

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Yes, because othewise it would become a bit of a mockery, and means that some information, in this case the identity of the person/body requesting the information, is not freely available.

Unless of course the person of whom the information is being sought, puts in their own question using the Freedom of Information Act, so as to discover the identity of the person requesing the information on them in the first place.

That could go on for ever, and I'm sure there are much more worth while things public servants could be employed doing, such as making sure forms are filled in accurately, so that we we don't miss out on any money that's going begging that we would have been entitled to, if they'd had been filled in correctly.

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I am sorry but I don't see why you should have the right to know who is asking about you. After all you are part of the public body the Council so the act applies to you. Even some private emails you may send or recieve from your HBC email account could be requested under FOI see below


Anyone contacting the Council by letter or email can always state it is in confidence and should not be disclosed as the info below says.

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I'm just Wondering if the FOI act can be used for data held on file by HBC, about an individuals personal financial affairs and status:confused:

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FOI.

The Leader said we only keep records on taxi Drivers for 6 months. I asked about a driver and 'Records had been lost prior to 2002 BUT since then I had his full criminal record."

Obviously personal details are confidential but statistical data exists.

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That's very refreshing to know, puts my mind at rest knowing that people can't just stick their nose into my business willy nilly on a whim:rolleyes:

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Didn't know you were a taxi driver Jaysay:rolleyes:

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Thought Graham was talking about very bodies personal details not just cab drivers, now you've started me worrying again claytonender:D

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On the Freedom Of information question it wasn't necessarily to go over old ground, covering Andrew's F.O.I request.

But it was as much about raising the issues of Rights, which it seems to me is the centre of any F.O.I request.

The person making a F.O.I Request has ever right to make that request, and I would defend that. But then you come to the question of rights for the people who are having F.O.I made against them. What right's do they have if any?

Anyway it made for quite an interesting debate, with some really good contributions.

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I would say none.....if you enter public life you are there to be shot at. :)

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Very little I would have thought, all part of working for a public service that comes under the Freedom of Information Act. Not sure if you can request Council Officers wages - I think you should be able too though.

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I think if Graham had paid for the personal calls himself it would have been deducted from the total before the data was compiled.

I also think that if he wanted to make personal calls and was willing to pay for them himself then he shouldn't have used the contract phone/sim card made available to him by the council.

In ANY job you are requested to keep work and personal life separate. I don't think it was appropriate to use the number used for business to make personal calls to family. I work for a specific department at university that requires mobile phones and the staff often carry 2, sometimes 3 mobiles phones with them for different uses and their personal calls are restricted to their only personal mobile phones.

It's sad that your grandmother was ill, but I still don't think it justifies the lack of sense here.

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NO , if you are a pig at the public trough the public has a right to know how many truffles you are gobbling up , this applies to any employee paid from the pubic purse , elected or not , infact I would go so far as to say any Council/Govt. employees, job description, resume and qualifications should be open to public scrutiny to ensure taxpayers are getting the best value for money :eek:

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I agree up to the point about qualifications and resume. These aren't really always a guarantee of 'quality' or 'value for money' and I don't think the general public are in a better position to decide such a thing other than those who are experienced in the field themselves and know what the job requires.

I think Robert Owen is wrong to suggest those requesting information should be prepared to declare their own details either because at the end of the day, that person isn't being paid by the public and it should be a right to have access to that information and it is already more along the lines of a permission rather than a right as it is.

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I would think the public would be able to decide if a recent graduate employee with a degree from a reputable university was better qualified than a graduate from some place that five years ago was teaching tyre changing and cake decoration (nothing wrong with tyre changing and cake decoration , both respecable jobs) ;) ;)

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That is exactly the problem isn't it, a degree should be accepted as a good qualification regardless of what university or college it is gained at if it covers the same subjects.

I despise the idea that one degree could be better than another just based on where it was gained.

To give you an example, I currently lead a team in a national law competition and we are the only team from Lancaster University and on the leaderboard we are currently number 1, tied with Cambridge. If we were to apply for the same job with the same qualifications, there would be the assumption that Cambridge is 'better', yet in practise we can produce the exact same quality.

So no, I disagree with you. And there are a hell of a lot of smart people in the world who have been successful at what they do without formal qualifications.

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That is not true. In some positions have a work phone is classed as a perk. I am damn sure my manager does not pay for his personal calls. Equally though I have received calls from him while I was at work using his home phone.

Maybe they should be considering the health of their staff. The more phones they carry the more electromagnetic radiation they are exposed too.

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Only if you work for a company with a Victorian attitude. Many companies allow mixed use of a company phone, many conpanies allow you to use common sense when it comes to mixing work and personal life. A decent employer would realise that your personal life and work life go hand in hand. It's actually more productive to treat employees as human beings than robots.:rolleyes:

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Blazey - Graham did pay for the calls and it was not deducted from the data before it was compiled - does he have to post a copy of all his cheques onto this forum to prove it.

I hope you are never in the position of trying to juggle work and caring for an elderly relative. In those circumstances it is very difficult to keep work and personal life separate, as you never know when you might have to rush home to take them to hospital etc. Belief me it is not very easy - I have had to do it on more than one occasion. In fact when my father was very ill I had to give up a very well paid job because of the time I needed to spend with him and my mother. Not everyone has other family members who can take responsibility for their relatives.

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MEMBERS OF THE INDEPENDENT REMUNERATION PANEL
Mr Philip Morris - retired headteacher
Mr John Davis – businessman
Mr Frank Whitehead – retired local government chief officer
Miss Rahila Hussain – Connexions

Our statutory role is to advise Hyndburn Borough Council in respect of the allowances paid to councillors.

We were supplied with the following information to assist us with our work.
The Council’s current members allowance scheme, dated 1st April 2008.
Information about the calculation evening meal allowances by other Lancashire councils.
Comparative information from other Lancashire councils.

We recommend that the rate of evening meal allowance be increased as follows:
Within Lancashire: £15
Outside Lancashire: £20.

We recommend that the subsistence allowance payable for hotel accommodation be increased as follows:
In London: the actual cost incurred up to £170 per night
Outside London: the actual cost incurred up to £145 per night.

Both recommendations seem fairly arrived at, after careful, studied consideration..

Both recommendations were ignored, and the current higher allowances were voted for by the Conservative councillors on H.B.C.

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I was just asking the question, do councillors and local government officers have any rights.

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Why would they even need a right? They have no right under the Act to avoid declaring the information so knowing about the person would make no difference.

And I think when it comes to public money it should be scrutinised very carefully and yes, if someone wanted proof that he offset the personal calls then I think he should have to prove that, ESPECIALLY if those personal calls are going to be included in the overall expense, otherwise the figures are incorrect and misleading, both to the public and against the person whose expenditures they are.

If Graham DID pay for the personal calls then they shouldn't be included in that figure and I'm sure he would agree with that unless he's an idiot.

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It wasn't so much as who asked for the information. More why they asked for that information. And also what they intended doing with that information.

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Defending the indefensible, in my opinion.

In the vain hope of clouding the important issues, that two wrongs somehow make a right.

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I'm just debating the pros and cons of the Freedom Of Information Act. Graham is big enough to speak for himself.

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You posted about why the information was sought in the first place, and what the intention for doing so might be.

I simply offered my opinion, to your statement in the form of an open ended question, and didn't see it as being directed at Graham Jones, as he is only one of the people that information was requested on, but to the forum in general.

I speak for myself, no one else.

Perhaps when you've been a round a bit longer on Accy Web, you might realise some of us do just that.;)

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If someone who knew me asked, via FOI, for info about me, I would assume that they considered that they wouldn't get the truth by asking me.
I would regard that as an insult

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That's my view as well Margaret.

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I never suggested you spoke for anybody but yourself. I think we may well have been at cross purposes. Is that the phrase?

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Sadly for them, I think the general public rate politicans down there with estate agents and used car salesmem, in the league of trustworthiness.

Which is a shame for those who are.

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I think it is sad that I can be called a 'silly mindless bitch' just for giving an opinion on this matter.

It's free information, you can't STOP what someone does with it so I suppose the only point of being able to ask what it was going to be used for is to prepare yourself for what is to come.

I've always been of the view in any case that it makes no sense to act guilty if you aren't guilty. And if you're innocent then you'll have no need to worry.

I think politicians are given too much money for accommodation and food allowances personally.

Anyway this silly mindless bitch has to go to work today and arguing against my right to information seems pointless to me, so I'll leave you all to it.

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Just wait till you end up in a job where you have to travel away from your family and friends. I can assure you, at every opportunity you will be asking for a rise in expenses.
I can't really see the big deal in any of these phone bills or the london expenses or any of the other expenses. These people do a job. If they are away from home they should have a decent life and reasonable compensation. £10 in london for a meal? Your having a laugh! If you are in work and in London for your job you should be able to have food and drink to a level you are happy with. Sometimes it might be £10, sometimes it might be £40, but you should have the option as it is not exactly your choice to be in London in the first place.

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I found an all you can eat buffet in London for a fiver last time I was there. Obviously I have to stay in hostels when I'm in London though because I can't afford that much. I'm in London next weekend actually. Not sure I'll be near the buffet place though, its just down the road from Imperial College though. I forget what the road is called. Something to do with Museums though I think because there are a few museums on that road! I ate at that buffet place every day the time before last I was in London.

Obviously expenses should be different depending on the place of work though. London allowances shouldn't be the same as if you were visiting a town for example.

And obviously you get an allowance for personal calls, which is fair enough, I'm not saying there should be no personal calls at all, but it should be reasonable.

The fact that I'm saying the expenses Graham paid for himself shouldn't be included in the final sum isn't offensive in my opinion. It currently makes him look like he spends more public money than he does, so it should at least highlight how much of that he offsets himself. I don't see why anyone would disagree with that.

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Well good effort and 10 out of 10 for exploration and time wasting. When working in London I generally find myself pretty tired at the end of the day and like to think that my employer gives me enough kitty to eat in the hotel I'm staying at, or somewhere convenient to me, no matter what it costs. I don't see why I should have to explore to find the cheapest. If I'm away for a while then yes, exploration will be done, but if I'm on a quick business trip then locality and convenience comes before cost.

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Amen to that Roy, absolutely spot on, as some one who worked away from home on a regular basis, you could actually build up a good list of where to stay and were to eat at reasonable costs, but when your on the odd visit representing the local authority, you don't get time to walk around looking for bargain of the day in the food stakes, especially in central London, which is a nightmare at the best of times

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I've said before many times, no one should be out of pocket when it comes to expenses, and no one would have needed to be if the independently recommended limits had been accepted, as can be clearly seen in neighbouring boroughs to Hyndburn. There was even a London weighting suggested, which seems a reasonable recommendation, but which the Conservative councillors also chose to ignore.

There is a difference between the private and public sector. I never had a limit for expenses. My bosses accepted I wouldn't take advantage by ordering a la carte and quaffing Cristal champagne at their expense. There are firms in the city who've been happy to settle £10,000 lunch bills, though I expect that this might not be the case now, and such past extravagances may have long term effects on such companies.

Sadly if there isn't a limit there's always going to be someone who's going to take the proverbial, and that isn't acceptable when it's being funded by Council Tax payers, many of whom are struggling to feed themselves and their families, whilst keeping a roof over their heads, and trying to find the money to pay our ever increasing bills.

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I don't disagree with a lot you say. On the allowances question, the level generally is too high.

I would also like to see the council take a good look as to whether some of these trips and conferences are really necessary in the first place.

You mention how much it cost you in London the last time you went. The last time I went I probably managed it just as cheap. I stayed in St Paul's Youth Hostel in the centre of London. And went to Weatherspoons for something to eat.

I am not sure though that I could persuade the leader of the council to stay in a youth hostel.

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I would not expect him too either, would you?

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'Members of Lancashire's Police Authority have voted unanimously not to increase the annual member allowances in the coming year.'

“In the current economic turbulence we did not feel that we should increase our own allowances while asking for even greater efficiencies and productivity gains from the constabulary.”

No cash rise for Lancashire Police Authority (From Lancashire Telegraph)

Good to see at least one public body showing a modicum of common sense, and empathetic decency.

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it aint just good, its great, the vote being UNANIMOUS. well done fer once the police.

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I actually just walked past the place on the street on my way to the tube and then went back on my way home.

London is full of cheap places to eat.

As for places to stay, the colleges and universities with accommodation often allow you to pay to stay in their rooms, which is cheaper than a hotel and good quality.

I find it quite rich that people are quite willing to justify a politicians taste in accommodation and food but the moment they book a holiday to the bahamas for a fortnight or have their hair cut there is an uproar.

I don't pay much tax, so it isn't my money that is currently being wasted on these politicians.

My friends at university went down to downing street the other week and have been completely disillusioned about national politics. None of the politicians they met there cared about the north, or the other students they met from the more prominent universities. We're going to have generations of career politicians and they aren't going to give a damn about you unless you suddenly stop paying your taxes.

You should be encouraging people like Andrew to take an interest in politics, because he's the minority and he's the only chance you have actually got at improvement unless you're willing to improve things for yourselves.

Shoot him for being a student politician and you'll be shooting yourselves in the foot.

I on the other hand will continue with my own education and if that makes me mindless, well fair enough, but at least I'm trying to make things better for myself and getting on with it, which is more than can be said for a lot of people my age, most of them ruining your town, stealing from you, impregnating your daughters and generally dragging it deeper into the gutter.

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'Councillors in Preston have voted not to give themselves a pay rise.'

"The panel feel, however, that the recommendations put forward will be construed as being appropriate, especially in the current climate."

'Preston councillors currently receive the third-highest basic allowance in Lancashire, behind West Lancashire and Hyndburn. The lowest allowance, of £1,500, is paid to members of South Ribble Council.'

Councillors vote for a pay freeze after panel's recommendations - Lancashire Evening Post

Common sense appears to be spreading across the county, though sadly it bypassed us here in Hyndburn, or at least the Conservative councillors on H.B.C.

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I'm sure G Jones can handle a few insults from the Tories but try insulting a Tory on Accyweb and it's a warning for you:(

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have you not read the rest of the thread then?????

Think Andrewb has had his fair share of insults as well as Mr Jones

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I am sure the good folk of AccyWeb can come up with many more if we try hard enough :rolleyes::D

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Of course I've read the rest of the thread, have you?:rolleyes:

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I think its good that young people get involved in politics, irrespective of their beliefs. It ought to be encouraged, not discouraged.

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Perhaps, but nothing so wittily Wildean and clever as 'silly cow'.

Nevermind a guide book to London, these whimsically insulting quotes should be in print, and saved for posterity.

You can add " that woman" to your list maybe he was forgetting that I am an elected member of HBC just as he is - not just someone who has wandered in from off the street.



Posted via Mobile Device

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I do hope you don't feel less important because you are not a silly cow :D:D

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Who?

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Um funny how the worm has turned Rindi ain't it;)

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Yeah.

Truly hilarious.

:rolleyes: