Oswaldtwistle War Memorial

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Neil

It is a shame that all you gents with all this knowledge can't get together and make our memorial as accurate as possible.

Who are all these gents with all this knowledge.
There is one with a web site who thinks he's got knowledge, but thats got more mistakes than the Oswaldtwistle War Memorial list.

I only deal in PROVEN facts, any mistakes, and it throws the whole into question. I don't like mistakes or errors, if its a thou out its scrap.
Even the Public Record office at Kew have acknowledged mistakes in some of their records, when I've presented proof, but they say they cannot alter their records, only acknowledge that there is an error.

Retlaw.

[Tealeaf]

Originally Posted by Retlaw

I only deal in PROVEN facts, any mistakes, and it throws the whole into question. I don't like mistakes or errors, if its a thou out its scrap.
Retlaw.

Why do you think the mistakes were made in the first instance, particularly in relation to the listing of names on memorials in the 1920's?

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

Why do you think the mistakes were made in the first instance, particularly in relation to the listing of names on memorials in the 1920's?

Those who compiled the original 1922 Roll of Honour, and the Greater Accrington Roll of Honour, mainly from lists compiled by the Accrington Observer in 1918, thats why some men are named twice, if he is recorded as John Thomas Bloggs wounded in one of the issues, and then later as Thomas Bloggs was killed in action, he gets one under each of the Christian names.

Then you've got the type setters in the printing shop trying to read some newspaper reporters scribblings,
and so it goes on and on and on.

Retlaw

[Tealeaf]

Originally Posted by Retlaw

Those who compiled the original 1922 Roll of Honour, and the Greater Accrington Roll of Honour, mainly from lists compiled by the Accrington Observer in 1918, thats why some men are named twice, if he is recorded as John Thomas Bloggs wounded in one of the issues, and then later as Thomas Bloggs was killed in action, he gets one under each of the Christian names.

Then you've got the type setters in the printing shop trying to read some newspaper reporters scribblings,
and so it goes on and on and on.

Retlaw

If the collation of names were only on the basis of the Observer records, then I can easily see how duplications and omissions would have been made. Surely, though, there must have been at least some assessment made by the powers that be (council committee?) of the eligability of individual names to go on the memorial.

I suppose this problem would not have been unique to Accrington/Oswaldtwistle. After all, at a national level there is not even agreement on the duration of the war; some memorials date it as 1914-18, others 14-19 so if that could not have been agreed upon it is no surprise that the methodology in obtaining and the criteria in listing names would differ from memorial to memorial.

I wonder if the Accy Observer would have had, in it's 1920's correspondence columns, complaints of missing, duplicated and incorrectly spelt names and as such, what was subsequently done to rectify the situation?

One final thought occurs to me. What was the role of the next-of-kin in the process of placing names? At what stage were they consulted, if at all? And is it not possible that in a radical political climate (and in a local tradition of socialist non-conformism) that certain families would not have wanted their loved one's name carved on a monument seen as glorifing war?

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

If the collation of names were only on the basis of the Observer records, then I can easily see how duplications and omissions would have been made. Surely, though, there must have been at least some assessment made by the powers that be (council committee?) of the eligability of individual names to go on the memorial.
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Never come across any evidence of committe hearings on the subject of names, but there are some on the design of memorials and discussions in the newspapers on the subject
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I suppose this problem would not have been unique to Accrington/Oswaldtwistle. After all, at a national level there is not even agreement on the duration of the war; some memorials date it as 1914-18, others 14-19 so if that could not have been agreed upon it is no surprise that the methodology in obtaining and the criteria in listing names would differ from memorial to memorial.
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There are over 160 names missing from the memorials in Great Accrington (Hyndburn)
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I wonder if the Accy Observer would have had, in it's 1920's correspondence columns, complaints of missing, duplicated and incorrectly spelt names and as such, what was subsequently done to rectify the situation?
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Most of the War Memorials round here were erected in 1922, if there had been any complaints about the errors, why have'nt they been corrected over the past 87 years
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One final thought occurs to me. What was the role of the next-of-kin in the process of placing names? At what stage were they consulted, if at all? And is it not possible that in a radical political climate (and in a local tradition of socialist non-conformism) that certain families would not have wanted their loved one's name carved on a monument seen as glorifing war?

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Some names were ommited especially those missing in action, some relatives held on to the hope that they may come home. Others were so disgusted at the way their loved ones had been treated, refused to have their names added.
Others had their names put on several memorials.
Accrington has an addenda panel, several names on there, are already recorded on other memorials.
Retlaw.

[Gayle]

Originally Posted by Retlaw

Who are all these gents with all this knowledge.


Retlaw.

You for a start, Andrew Jackson (not sure if that's his name on here or real name) and presumably Roy Lockwood, who's been doing research for the War Memorial. That's three gents for a start.

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Gayle

You for a start, Andrew Jackson (not sure if that's his name on here or real name) and presumably Roy Lockwood, who's been doing research for the War Memorial. That's three gents for a start.

Me I'm no Gent, and as one of the young ladies in the library said, your obssesed with finding all these men.

To me the other two are amatuers. If it takes 7 years to gain an apprenticeship, and I've been at it since 1983, what does that make me.

The only thing thats making it easier for me now, is the fact I don't have to keep travelling down to the Public Record office in London, now the documents I need are available thro Accy Library

Retlaw.

[Gayle]

Originally Posted by Retlaw

Me I'm no Gent, and as one of the young ladies in the library said, your obssesed with finding all these men.

To me the other two are amatuers. If it takes 7 years to gain an apprenticeship, and I've been at it since 1983, what does that make me.

The only thing thats making it easier for me now, is the fact I don't have to keep travelling down to the Public Record office in London, now the documents I need are available thro Accy Library

Retlaw.

Surely, then, they could benefit from your wisdom to find out their mistakes. They may be amateurs but they're a darn sight more knowledgeable than the average person and if they're the ones publishing information then that's the information that the average person will trust to be right. And it's their information that will be read by future generations when you aren't around to correct them in person.

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Gayle

Surely, then, they could benefit from your wisdom to find out their mistakes. They may be amateurs but they're a darn sight more knowledgeable than the average person and if they're the ones publishing information then that's the information that the average person will trust to be right. And it's their information that will be read by future generations when you aren't around to correct them in person.

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As far as I'm aware Roy was managing quite well on his own, he never asked for any help.
But I'm not having my work vetted by some tinpot committee, the only person qualified to verify my work is Catherine Duckworth the Local Studies Librarian.

As for the other, I would'nt hiss on him if he was on fire.

Retlaw.
Bet he's back on here before long, now that theres a thread on WW1.

[Gayle]

Well clearly he's not managing quite well if you've spotted some mistakes. So to make sure that the information that is on the War Memorial is correct, would he not want your help.

As a resident of Oswaldtwistle, I want the War Memorial to have the right information on. We need people like yourself involved. He may not have asked you to help but have you offered?

[Tealeaf]

Originally Posted by Gayle

As a resident of Oswaldtwistle, I want the War Memorial to have the right information on. We need people like yourself involved. He may not have asked you to help but have you offered?

.......but there is an argument, is there not, for leaving the memorial as it is - mistakes and all. It is after all, an historical symbol made by people with the most noble of intentions, still under a cloud of immense grief, and so who are we now to reinterpet their statement of their time?

Sorry, I'm just philosophising..............

[Gayle]

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

.......but there is an argument, is there not, for leaving the memorial as it is - mistakes and all. It is after all, an historical symbol made by people with the most noble of intentions, still under a cloud of immense grief, and so who are we now to reinterpet their statement of their time?

Sorry, I'm just philosophising..............

There aren't any names on it at the moment. The names that we're talking about have been researched and are going to be put on the memorial for the first time. If there are mistakes in the first list then surely they need to be corrected before they are actually put onto the memorial for posterity.

[Tealeaf]

Two questions:

1) Where on the memorial will the names be placed?

2) WW2, Korea, Falklands, NI conflicts have been added to the memorial. At some point in time, can we expect the names of those fallen to be added to the memorial and if so, where?

[Gayle]

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

Two questions:

1) Where on the memorial will the names be placed?

I don't know

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

2) WW2, Korea, Falklands, NI conflicts have been added to the memorial. At some point in time, can we expect the names of those fallen to be added to the memorial and if so, where?

I don't know

Sorry

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Gayle

Well clearly he's not managing quite well if you've spotted some mistakes. So to make sure that the information that is on the War Memorial is correct, would he not want your help.

As a resident of Oswaldtwistle, I want the War Memorial to have the right information on. We need people like yourself involved. He may not have asked you to help but have you offered?

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No as soon as I heard that any submissions were to be put before a commitee, to decide on whether their names are added or not, then that was it as far as I was concerned.
They either accept my list as it is, without question, or carry on as they are, as I said earlier, who are they to judge my work, and if that sounds arrogant to you, then so be it. I am my own judge and taskmaster and I don't seek the praise of others, nor will I let them take any credit for my work, I just get on with what I am doing, and I'm constantly checking for any errors

And if Britcliffe is going to be involved in the descision, then thats it as far as I'm concerned.
All he is after is political kudos, look what I did for Oswaldtwistle. If he's the best you've got, its time to go up cemetery and dig a few of the old ones up.

Retlaw.