The Tories

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

If it shifts the work from the A&E depts then it has got to be the thing to do...it isn't about working harder, it is about working smarter.
Personally I would put all the doctors on notice...renegotiate their contracts so that they had to find a way to overcome the problems that they have created for A&E depts. You just cannot get an appointment with a GP when you are ill.
I have even been told by a GP...'if this doesn't clear up - take yourself off to A&E'...this is not appropriate or good advice.

And just imagine back in 97 there was only 24 hours to save the NHS, sadly the NHS was in a very poor way in 2010, but there again it hasn't improved since then either, its time to take The NHS out of the political area and stop it being used as a political football by inept political leaders scoring political points. You can't play games with peoples health full stop and its time it stopped

[DAV007]

Originally Posted by jaysay

And just imagine back in 97 there was only 24 hours to save the NHS, sadly the NHS was in a very poor way in 2010, but there again it hasn't improved since then either, its time to take The NHS out of the political area and stop it being used as a political football by inept political leaders scoring political points. You can't play games with peoples health full stop and its time it stopped

Agree.
Health provision should be provided by the state and only the state with no political involvement.
Making profit out of health care is dangerous.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by DAV007

Agree.
Health provision should be provided by the state and only the state with no political involvement.

Lost me on this one

Isn't the state the government, which, by its nature, is political?

And...If government does not oversee, it then becomes private..which is kinda what the tories want anyway

[DAV007]

Originally Posted by Guinness

Lost me on this one

Isn't the state the government, which, by its nature, is political?

And...If government does not oversee, it then becomes private..which is kinda what the tories want anyway

Sorry Guinness, let me explain.
I think political interference has damaged the NHS.
Looking back over the past 10 years alone, Labour had the obsession with waiting list and KPI's that hospital manager and care trusts where more interested in the figures than patients.
It would be interesting if the NHS could have an over seeing care trust of experts.
Of course, the danger of such a organisation is it could be unaccountable and open to outside interest groups.
Thus, if all private provision was removed, in theory you would remove a significant proportion of the private pressure groups.
I assume it would still be accountable to politicians who could influence it by how it was accountable, but it may help reduce the influence.

There are still lots of problems and questions. For example, we are reliant on the drug companies to bring about new innovations and developments.
How do we ensure the tax payer is not being ripped off?

Although this problem exists at the moment.

[Margaret Pilkington]

The NHS has always been a political football, and political meddling has done it no damn good at all.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by DAV007

Sorry Guinness, let me explain.
I think political interference has damaged the NHS.
Looking back over the past 10 years alone, Labour had the obsession with waiting list and KPI's that hospital manager and care trusts where more interested in the figures than patients.
It would be interesting if the NHS could have an over seeing care trust of experts.
Of course, the danger of such a organisation is it could be unaccountable and open to outside interest groups.
Thus, if all private provision was removed, in theory you would remove a significant proportion of the private pressure groups.
I assume it would still be accountable to politicians who could influence it by how it was accountable, but it may help reduce the influence.

There are still lots of problems and questions. For example, we are reliant on the drug companies to bring about new innovations and developments.
How do we ensure the tax payer is not being ripped off?

Although this problem exists at the moment.

Personally I think it's the interpretation of the previous governments policy by the bureaucratic civil service that has screwed the NHS.

Cutting down waiting lists and ensuring people are seen when they are ill was a bloody good policy.

Unfortunately the Sir Humphreys and associated jobsworths screwed the pooch by employing an interminable amount of managers and inbetweeners to lick envelopes, buy stamps and have meetings about where to buy the envelopes and which is the best day to post the appointments, leaving no money to pay for nurses and doctors to actually keep these appointments.

Heard a story this week about someone seriously ill who was sent to RBH by their doctor and had to wait for over 6 hours to get a bed because according to RBH records said person was already dead. That's not government..thats incompetence!

Let me give you another...some guy with learning disabilities has to go into hospital..LCC stop paying the minute he goes into hospital because the NHS has to foot the bill, however it takes time for the cumbersome NHS to get its act in gear, meanwhile nurses who are not equipped to deal with said challenging behaviour guy treat him as a normal patient, staff who can deal with him are not being paid and aren't there to assist...food is left for him but guy doesn't eat or drink without support..he gets worse..he puts an even bigger burden on services..he becomes disruptive..does a runner or maybe even dies...who takes the blame....who is responsible?

Social services say they are following guidelines, so does the NHS...somebody dies unnecessarily and nobody is to blame, meanwhile Cameron and Osborne can still say there have been no cuts to frontline services.....go figure!

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

If it shifts the work from the A&E depts then it has got to be the thing to do...it isn't about working harder, it is about working smarter.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO don't say "it isn't about working harder, it is about working smarter." you sound like some nonsense talking politician. I hate such buzz words, next you will be thinking out of the box and wanting to empower doctors to make their own choices.

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

You just cannot get an appointment with a GP when you are ill.

Why do we never have a problem getting an appointment to see a Doctor when we need one when everyone else appears unable to do so?

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Guinness

Cutting down waiting lists and ensuring people are seen when they are ill was a bloody good policy.

No it was a stupid comment by a stupid politician who didn't stop to think how he would make is happen.

What really happened was that people ended up sitting waiting for longer in surgeries and it became hard to phone up and make an appointment for next week because they tried to keep all the appointments to give out in the morning for same day consultations to meet Government targets

It would have been good if the PM had put money into it and created more Doctors to reduce waiting times

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Neil

No it was a stupid comment by a stupid politician who didn't stop to think how he would make is happen.

What really happened was that people ended up sitting waiting for longer in surgeries and it became hard to phone up and make an appointment for next week because they tried to keep all the appointments to give out in the morning for same day consultations to meet Government targets

It would have been good if the PM had put money into it and created more Doctors to reduce waiting times

The following seems to indicate that's what happened, a steady increase in the number of doctors in the last ten years

GMC | List of Registered Medical Practitioners - statistics

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Guinness

Lost me on this one

Isn't the state the government, which, by its nature, is political?

And...If government does not oversee, it then becomes private..which is kinda what the tories want anyway

The only people running the NHS should be people with clinical knowledge, people with hands on experience in working within the system, people who know what and why they are doing things, Its all well and good putting some body on a pedestal and call them the secretary of state for health if they don't know earache from an ulcer. Being some one who's had a lot more of his fair share of hospital beds than most over the last 35 years I've an idea what's what, what it doesn't need is some noncom making rules just because they happen to be a member of a political party in office, this ain't the way forward for me

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by jaysay

The only people running the NHS should be people with clinical knowledge, people with hands on experience in working within the system, people who know what and why they are doing things, Its all well and good putting some body on a pedestal and call them the secretary of state for health if they don't know earache from an ulcer. Being some one who's had a lot more of his fair share of hospital beds than most over the last 35 years I've an idea what's what, what it doesn't need is some noncom making rules just because they happen to be a member of a political party in office, this ain't the way forward for me

You are right, the NHS is a political football and I see what you are saying but think about it...the NHS is more than just healthcare..its feeding the sick, buying sheets and blankets, paying the electricity bills, keeping ambulances and other ancilliary vehicles on the road, purchasing equipment, drugs and furniture...etc...etc...etc..

It makes no sense and its a waste of resources to have clinicians doing those jobs when they are needed to actually heal people.

The main problem with the NHS is the serious wastage of money that is more to do with lack of accountability and poor management than it is to do with government or actual healthcare. I think you highlighted it yourself a few months ago (think it was something about furniture but not too sure).

Lets use breaking your leg as an example...the doctor fixes it as you'd expect under the system..BUT..then you get a brand new crutch free of charge, which they don't want back, (presumably because they may get sued if they supply a crutch which is a little bit worn), they also give you a free leaflet offering free additional aids like things that enable you to sit on and get up from the toilet and have a bath or shower without getting your cast wet, (neither of which they want back). Is this government policy or is this a decision made by NHS management? I believe they even give you the option of having coloured casts????

I use the word 'free' but it all has to be paid for.

The current government doesn't highlight this managerial/admin caused 'free' wastage, they prefer to blame the guys who actually fix the break and say it costs too much in their incessant push for private healthcare.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Guinness

You are right, the NHS is a political football and I see what you are saying but think about it...the NHS is more than just healthcare..its feeding the sick, buying sheets and blankets, paying the electricity bills, keeping ambulances and other ancilliary vehicles on the road, purchasing equipment, drugs and furniture...etc...etc...etc..

It makes no sense and its a waste of resources to have clinicians doing those jobs when they are needed to actually heal people.

The main problem with the NHS is the serious wastage of money that is more to do with lack of accountability and poor management than it is to do with government or actual healthcare. I think you highlighted it yourself a few months ago (think it was something about furniture but not too sure).

Lets use breaking your leg as an example...the doctor fixes it as you'd expect under the system..BUT..then you get a brand new crutch free of charge, which they don't want back, (presumably because they may get sued if they supply a crutch which is a little bit worn), they also give you a free leaflet offering free additional aids like things that enable you to sit on and get up from the toilet and have a bath or shower without getting your cast wet, (neither of which they want back). Is this government policy or is this a decision made by NHS management? I believe they even give you the option of having coloured casts????

I use the word 'free' but it all has to be paid for.

The current government doesn't highlight this managerial/admin caused 'free' wastage, they prefer to blame the guys who actually fix the break and say it costs too much in their incessant push for private healthcare.

I recon the NHS is top heavy with not clinical, I mean paper shufflers, I went from 1995 to 2002 without a stay in hospital, when I was admitted back in 2002 the in crease in none clinical staff was very apparent people endlessly walking about looking important with pieces of paper in their hands, very much like County Hall, but that's another story, the waste in the NHS is ridiculous and something you realise if you're unfortunately a constant end user.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by Neil

NOOOOOOOOOOOO don't say "it isn't about working harder, it is about working smarter." you sound like some nonsense talking politician. I hate such buzz words, next you will be thinking out of the box and wanting to empower doctors to make their own choices.



Why do we never have a problem getting an appointment to see a Doctor when we need one when everyone else appears unable to do so?

But Neil, that is what it is about. There are different ways of working that almost certainly would improve the service/care given to patients.

I don't know why I can't get an appointment when I am sick(and I am not often sick - I don't go to the GP's unless I feel like I am dying and am bullied there by someone else in my life).......maybe your practice has a different system than the Pals centre.
It is more of a business than a caring GP practice.

My daughter has been seriously ill this year. Had a major life changing/saving operation in April, and not once did the practice contact her on her release from hospital(in fact we have really struggled to get things that she has needed to make her 'comfortable') Yet, they send me( I'm well and healthy) notification that I am due a flu jab...and that I can go and get a health MOT.

Preventative medicine is a money spinner for practices...looking after those who are truly sick costs them money......so maybe that has some bearing on the situation.

Oh yes, and while I am on the subject I cannot see a GP of my choosing...I have to see whoever is available. Remember I worked with most of these doctors as house officers during my career...and there are some of them I would not want inside my vest.

[cashman]

That is oh so true Margaret, How long has the Pals been open now? I once asked fer n appointment wi me doctor, to be told hes booked up for the next 2 weeks, So since its been open i have never once seen me own doctor,(who i regard as a good un) I am aware some smaller practices have a different way of doing things, Thats perhaps the answer to the smugger uns never having a problem, n before thats denied i do not regard Neil as being to thick to know the reason.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by cashman

That is oh so true Margaret, How long has the Pals been open now? I once asked fer n appointment wi me doctor, to be told hes booked up for the next 2 weeks, So since its been open i have never once seen me own doctor,(who i regard as a good un) I am aware some smaller practices have a different way of doing things, Thats perhaps the answer to the smugger uns never having a problem, n before thats denied i do not regard Neil as being to thick to know the reason.

This appointment crap is nonsense, my GP doesn't use one, but when I was in hassy I once rang up for an appointment and was told it would be in 10 days time, I just said fine, I'll have a house call then I'll be in all day they soon managed to push me in