The Tories

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

.......and I know that some people on benefits are in genuine need...they will continue to be so until the whole sorry mess is sorted out.

Not at all, yer not getting what i'm saying, I'm saying quite clearly, some people who "Are Not" on benefits, and are genuine, damn well should be.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Cashy, I do get what you are saying...and I am saying that these people are being robbed by those who are on benefits and should not be(for whatever reason) but that essentially it isn't their fault...it is the fault of the system, and the different political parties who encouraged them to claim benefits so that the unemployment figures looked better.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Cashy, I do get what you are saying...and I am saying that these people are being robbed by those who are on benefits and should not be(for whatever reason) but that essentially it isn't their fault...it is the fault of the system, and the different political parties who encouraged them to claim benefits so that the unemployment figures looked better.

We will have to disagree, they are being robbed by those barstewards that are rewarding the bankers n millionaires, not rocket science, benefit scroungers are a subject that makes most folks blood boil, n thats what these gets are counting on n to me it seems to working.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Cashy, I do get what you are saying...and I am saying that these people are being robbed by those who are on benefits and should not be(for whatever reason) but that essentially it isn't their fault...it is the fault of the system, and the different political parties who encouraged them to claim benefits so that the unemployment figures looked better.

It's a cop out to say it's the system, as if the "system" had an independent existence. It's the fault of the mean spirited, hard hearted, poor-hating, right to life, anti-gay, right-wing assholes who are running the system. We have tories too. But ours are kept more or less in line because they realize that Canadian voters have already destroyed one conservative party, and that, if they are pushed, they will obliterate the one we have now.

And you mentioned that we had it hard when we were young. Damn right we did. But that's because we had spent our national treasure, and thousands of gallons of blood fighting the krauts. We had rationing not to balance the budget, but because Britain had spent all it had fighting two wars. Not to forget that much of the merchant navy was gathering barnacles at the bottom of the Atlantic. This is not an anti-square head rant, by the way. More power to the Germans for realizing that a vibrant economy has to be based on making stuff, and supplying Germans with well-paid, secure(ish) jobs so that they could buy houses, cars, etc. etc. etc. Lots of folks, no doubt, are out of work over in the land of Uk because those kinds of jobs are no longer there. What the hell kind of economy can you have if 30% of it is in the City of London? I'm willing to bet that if the jobs were there, folks would be working.

[Margaret Pilkington]

No Eric it isn't a cop out at all....if a system allows for fraud...doesn't police those who are claiming, then you cannot blame the claimants for taking advantage of what is on offer.
What would be your solution to the problem if you think it isn't the system?


And I agree with your observations on why we were poor(and there wasn't the same welfare to support us back then)........the fact is that we don't make things anymore.......we sold our manufacturing to other countries who could do the job for much less....and when you are buying something do you buy Canadian, if you can buy something that is just as good, but not made in your own country?
Some people might choose a home manufactured product, but many do not have the luxury of choice...they are driven by the economics of what is affordable...and most of that is from China.

[cmonstanley]

there goes the national minimum wage just as I predicted Minimum wage could be frozen or cut if it starts to cost jobs or damage economy, Government suggests - Telegraph watch the Europeans undercut everybody so much for having to pay for your mortgage, the tories are really the enemy from within.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

No Eric it isn't a cop out at all....if a system allows for fraud...doesn't police those who are claiming, then you cannot blame the claimants for taking advantage of what is on offer.
What would be your solution to the problem if you think it isn't the system?


And I agree with your observations on why we were poor(and there wasn't the same welfare to support us back then)........the fact is that we don't make things anymore.......we sold our manufacturing to other countries who could do the job for much less....and when you are buying something do you buy Canadian, if you can buy something that is just as good, but not made in your own country?
Some people might choose a home manufactured product, but many do not have the luxury of choice...they are driven by the economics of what is affordable...and most of that is from China.

As this is a thread about tories, I think it's worthwhile pointing out that even if no one were screwing the welfare system, tories would attack it. And if the NHS were working perfectly, tories would try to undermine it and shift health care to the private sector (that would be to their cronies in the "health care for profit" industry).

The question of why other countries can "do the job for much less" is a whole 'nother issue ... starvation wages, no protection for workers, long hours ... even Nike had the decency to be a little embarassed. And who moved the industry? I would suggest tory businessmen who resented having to pay a decent living wage to their workers ... greedy bastards who don't give a flying you-know-what about the damage they are doing to their country, as long as their company profits and personal wealth go up, and up ......

And, yes, I do buy Canadian whenever possible ... we don't grow too many pineapples in the Yukon I drive a GM car ... made in Oshawa, ON. I'm having a glass of Canadian wine from Prince Edward County. I have a Blackberry. Of course, our economies are different. We have a wealth of natural resources. We also have a free trade agreement with the world's largest economy. Which is nothing like the EU garbage you have. Whatever ... for tories, the state of the economy is largely irrelevant ... they behave like tories ... or like assholes, which is the same thing.

[Eric]

By the way, I'm aware that some .... maybe many ... are screwing THE SYSTEM out of millions of bucks. They are welfare bums. But let's not forget about the corporate welfare bums.

Pushed to the Left and Loving It: The Corporate Welfare State vs the Social Welfare State

And while the tories crusade against the little guys who are costing you, and us, millions, the rich use tax havens to avoid paying billions in taxes. Is no one po'd at this? Some poor bitch on Tyneside, with a grade 4 education, pushing out sprogs on a regular basis, makes the headlines when she fiddles an extra few hundred bucks from welfare. Meanwhile, wealthy jerkoffs are sending boatloads of cash to the Grand Cayman Islands. Maybe it's legal ... but it stinks to high heaven. A company takes millions in tax breaks and "incentives" and still moves its operations overseas. And what do the tories do about this ... Canadian tories brag about having one of the lowest rates of corporate tax in the world. The next day they announce they are cutting funding for daycare. Let's get a little perspective happenin' here folks.

[cashman]

Perspective, thats a good un Eric!! if it aint in daily rags etc, how can some comprehend?

[Margaret Pilkington]

Eric....you prove my point for me very nicely.
The fact that corporations can avoid paying their social dues and do it legally is also down to the system.
In the recent budget it was said that government would name and shame these businesses...but why do that? They have the power to close the loopholes that let the big flies break through....while the little flies(us pensioners) get intimidating letters demanding the return of money to the taxman that we didn't know we owed(because they got their calculations wrong - and we are supposed to be able to spot this, but they couldn't).

It appears to me that no-one has a social conscience anymore.

As for countries doing the job for less.......we exported the jobs to them (Do you remember the Queens Award to Industry for Export?)....they have lower overheads
it cost less to live in some of those countries.......and NO, I do not condone the slave like working conditions....but what can you do about them(Many of us do not have the luxury to be able to afford home produced goods...that is if you can find them)...we have enough problems to solve in this country(not that our 'Honourable MP's seem to want to apply themselves to these).

Perspective is a great thing Eric...and because you live so far away from the problems here...you have it in spades.

[cashman]

The system has always been wrong/corrupt Margaret, no doubt, but to me the fact remains,those running the system (Whichever Party) refuse to correct or alter things. So therefore those greedy pigs are to blame.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by cashman

How else am i supposed to interpret it? I have said many times the twisters need sorting n i am also well aware of a disabled child, who,s mam has been told aint disabled end of story, n i am am damn sure jaysay knows who n what i am referring too.

I do and I've said that's wrong, but how do you get rind of the bogus claimers and its not just the odd one either cashy, the problem is successive governments have done nothing about this trend towards a Benefit culture society were it pays more on benefits than it does working, that can't be right, there are many people who are quite happy to stick their hand out every week than even trying to find work. When you have a genuine long term illness, and you see people who you know have sod all wrong with um it wrankles.

[cmonstanley]

but it doesnt mean making people work for a pittance right.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by jaysay

I do and I've said that's wrong, but how do you get rind of the bogus claimers and its not just the odd one either cashy, the problem is successive governments have done nothing about this trend towards a Benefit culture society

Certainly not by supporting a scheme that punishes the genuine.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

but it doesnt mean making people work for a pittance right.

You are at total prat why don't you throw the towel in, you gave up making sense ages ago, they'll be working for more now than three years ago clown, there is a minimum wage, you know that thing Labour said the Tories would abolish