Everybody's Out of Step....... - Page 6

Acrylic-bob · 11-12-2011, 10:38

Considering that Thursday's summit was supposed to solve the sovereign debt crisis affecting not only Europe, but the whole global financial system. It seems strange that all anyone can talk about is Britain saying "NO". Especially given that the decision to press ahead with treaty change, either with or without Britain, had already been taken by the Fuhererin and her court dwarf days before the summit took place.

It strikes me that all this hoo-hah and stage managed outrage is masking something. There is something that was decided on Thursday night that the Fuhrerin does not want people to notice. What was anounced was nothing more or less than a re-presentation of the Maastricht Stability Pact. Which, given that they all effectively ignored and broke it the first time round, begs the question of why they would think anyone would be convinced by it at a second run around the block. Perhaps the Germans think that everyone is as economically illiterate as they appear to be. Maybe they are right.

One of the things that was decided on Thursday night, which very few have commented on, is that the EFSF will now be constituted and run by people who are totally immune from prosecution - for any action they take. They will not have to pay taxes on their earnings and they will not be subject to any outside scrutiny whatsoever. Additionally, they will have the power to issue demands to member countries for whatever amount of money they choose and members have just seven days to make it available - in full -or else! There is also to be no accountability of how they choose to disburse the money they raise.

On the whole, I think that The PM was right to say "NO". To paraphrase Groucho, I am not sure I would want to be a member of any club that had these jokers as members. Though I am certain that the stated reasons for his "NO" were a cover for his real agenda. It nevertheless will have the unintended consequence of making an 'IN-OUT' Referendum harder to resist.

It is going to be an interesting couple of weeks.

Expect some big surprises just after Christmas.

jaysay · 11-12-2011, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

Considering that Thursday's summit was supposed to solve the sovereign debt crisis affecting not only Europe, but the whole global financial system. It seems strange that all anyone can talk about is Britain saying "NO". Especially given that the decision to press ahead with treaty change, either with or without Britain, had already been taken by the Fuhererin and her court dwarf days before the summit took place.

It strikes me that all this hoo-hah and stage managed outrage is masking something. There is something that was decided on Thursday night that the Fuhrerin does not want people to notice. What was anounced was nothing more or less than a re-presentation of the Maastricht Stability Pact. Which, given that they all effectively ignored and broke it the first time round, begs the question of why they would think anyone would be convinced by it at a second run around the block. Perhaps the Germans think that everyone is as economically illiterate as they appear to be. Maybe they are right.

One of the things that was decided on Thursday night, which very few have commented on, is that the EFSF will now be constituted and run by people who are totally immune from prosecution - for any action they take. They will not have to pay taxes on their earnings and they will not be subject to any outside scrutiny whatsoever. Additionally, they will have the power to issue demands to member countries for whatever amount of money they choose and members have just seven days to make it available - in full -or else! There is also to be no accountability of how they choose to disburse the money they raise.

On the whole, I think that The PM was right to say "NO". To paraphrase Groucho, I am not sure I would want to be a member of any club that had these jokers as members. Though I am certain that the stated reasons for his "NO" were a cover for his real agenda. It nevertheless will have the unintended consequence of making an 'IN-OUT' Referendum harder to resist.

It is going to be an interesting couple of weeks.

Expect some big surprises just after Christmas.

Good post Bob I just hope I get my surprises on Christmas day though

Acrylic-bob · 11-12-2011, 10:49

For me, everyday I get a surprise, when I wake up and realise I'm still here!

Margaret Pilkington · 11-12-2011, 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

Considering that Thursday's summit was supposed to solve the sovereign debt crisis affecting not only Europe, but the whole global financial system. It seems strange that all anyone can talk about is Britain saying "NO". Especially given that the decision to press ahead with treaty change, either with or without Britain, had already been taken by the Fuhererin and her court dwarf days before the summit took place.
A-B...it is always good to find someone you can shift the blame onto.
I don't think any of this has ever really centred on finding a solution to the Eurozone crisis......if there had been a suitable solution(other than breaking up the eurozone and ditching the Euro) it would have been sorted....weeks and weeks ago.
These repeated meetings have been to look like something is being done.....to placate the financial markets.

It strikes me that all this hoo-hah and stage managed outrage is masking something. There is something that was decided on Thursday night that the Fuhrerin does not want people to notice. What was anounced was nothing more or less than a re-presentation of the Maastricht Stability Pact. Which, given that they all effectively ignored and broke it the first time round, begs the question of why they would think anyone would be convinced by it at a second run around the block. Perhaps the Germans think that everyone is as economically illiterate as they appear to be. Maybe they are right.
I'm sure you are right about the diversion of attention.......they want all the member countries to do as they are bidden. To sleep walk into a situation where France and Germany call the shots...hold the trump cards....to hand over their sovereignty without a shot being fired...much more economical than a war.

One of the things that was decided on Thursday night, which very few have commented on, is that the EFSF will now be constituted and run by people who are totally immune from prosecution - for any action they take. They will not have to pay taxes on their earnings and they will not be subject to any outside scrutiny whatsoever. Additionally, they will have the power to issue demands to member countries for whatever amount of money they choose and members have just seven days to make it available - in full -or else! There is also to be no accountability of how they choose to disburse the money they raise.

Has there ever been any degree of accountability as to where any of the EU money has gone? Or for that matter how it was raised?
As far as I am aware, the EU has not had a budget audited and signed off for at least 14 years...but I am happy to be corrected if anyone knows anything different.
The EU is a totally corrupt organisation.
The whole set up is run by unelected bureaucrats who do just as they please...with no let or hindrance.......and I think this is not only undemocratic, but goes against the British sense of fair play.

On the whole, I think that The PM was right to say "NO". To paraphrase Groucho, I am not sure I would want to be a member of any club that had these jokers as members. Though I am certain that the stated reasons for his "NO" were a cover for his real agenda. It nevertheless will have the unintended consequence of making an 'IN-OUT' Referendum harder to resist.

It is going to be an interesting couple of weeks.

Expect some big surprises just after Christmas.

I think that some while back MargaretR suggested we wait for a long Bank Holiday weekend...and watch as the brown stuff hit the fan(my interpretation of what she said.....MargaretR didn't put it quite like that - but I think that is what she meant)...so you aren't on your own in thinking that A-B

I think this is what the chinese mean when they say that wish that you live in interesting times...their version of an insult.
I think we are going to live through some(for want of a better word)...interesting times.

mobertol · 11-12-2011, 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

It is going to be an interesting couple of weeks.

Expect some big surprises just after Christmas.

Tantalising A-B -give us a clue as to the kind of surprises - have you been polishing up your Crystal ball?

Should we be setting a date for the Party to end all parties, before the end of the world as we know it?

Seems a lot of wool is being pulled over the collected eyes of Europe...

Not helped by terrible translaton - on SKY News 24hr (Italian version) yesterday, The Daily Express headline:

"Britain Close to EU Exit"

"Close" was translated as "terminate", instead of "near to " -so effectively the message was that Britain has closed with Europe and is already pulling out!!

This became, as you said, the big story of the day....!

Today they are running " Cameron -hero of the Eurosceptics in Britain"

Acrylic-bob · 11-12-2011, 13:34

"Has there ever been any degree of accountability as to where any of the EU money has gone? Or for that matter how it was raised?"

The EU accounts are actually audited every year, but have not been signed off now for 17 years, because of the amount of fraud -oops - misreporting found in them. The accounts are in theory open to inspection - in practise that is another matter.

The difference with the EFSF is that, for the first time, this inaccountability is enshrined in the treaty. They are not even going to make any pretence about democratic accountability or freedom of information.

From what I have read, once the dust has settled and the markets get their head around what has been decided - not much - they will, as the Nikei did on Friday, start selling fast. Then when the individual parliaments realise what has been agreed, one by one they will begin to raise objections.

Reading some of the comment in European broadsheets is quite instructive. They complain loudly that they are tired of Britain always vetoing their projects and reforms etc. We should, according to the comments, never have been allowed to join in the first place. Having said that, however, they seem quite contradictory in believing that although they have almost got what they say they wanted, Britain out, that Britain should have made more of an effort to compromise and stay in.

Pah! Europeans, they are beyond understanding.

But I think de Gaulle showed that knew us better than anyone might have guessed when he opined that, if it came to a choice between the continent and the open sea, Britian would, in the end, always choose the sea.

Well, they and we have made our bed, now we must lie in it. I have no doubt that our bed will be uncomfortable for a while but at least we won't have anyone nicking all the blankets and blaming it on us.

Margaret Pilkington · 11-12-2011, 13:42

According to what I have read this is the first time that Britain has used its veto.
As I said, it is always good to have someone you can blame for the ills of the Eurozone....but when all is said and done....it was never a good idea, the single currency....and it hasn't been about trading partnerships/conditions for such a long time now(it is all about politics,power the Great United states of Europe)...it is just that France and Germany do not wish to own up to that fact....they will hock themselves and their people into the ground, rather than decide that the experiment failed.

Yes, I think our bed is going to have a few French and German made lumps in it for quite a while to come.

mobertol · 11-12-2011, 14:00

[quote=Acrylic-bob;955205
Pah! Europeans, they are beyond understanding.

But I think de Gaulle showed that knew us better than anyone might have guessed when he opined that, if it came to a choice between the continent and the open sea, Britian would, in the end, always choose the sea.

Well, they and we have made our bed, now we must lie in it. I have no doubt that our bed will be uncomfortable for a while but at least we won't have anyone nicking all the blankets and blaming it on us.[/quote]

I have given up trying to understand them - (the Italians at least) after 25 years here. They just have a different mentality and have never been able to comprehend the meaning of the saying "you can't have your cake and eat it". British "fair-play " is an alien concept - if you can get away with then it's "fair game" that's the way of thinking over here!

Britain's sea-faring legacy will stand it good stead for the future - the country has weathered many storms through the ages. No doubt this will blow itself out eventually one way or another.

"You make your bed and then you have to lie in it" was a favourite saying of my Grand-mother's, it's of typical of the stoical British nature. A while back though, a friend did say to me "You could always change bed" -must admit it was something i'd never thought of....

Acrylic-bob · 11-12-2011, 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by mobertol

Tantalising A-B -give us a clue as to the kind of surprises - have you been polishing up your Crystal ball?

Should we be setting a date for the Party to end all parties, before the end of the world as we know it?

Seems a lot of wool is being pulled over the collected eyes of Europe...

Not helped by terrible translaton - on SKY News 24hr (Italian version) yesterday, The Daily Express headline:

"Britain Close to EU Exit"

"Close" was translated as "terminate", instead of "near to " -so effectively the message was that Britain has closed with Europe and is already pulling out!!

This became, as you said, the big story of the day....!

Today they are running " Cameron -hero of the Eurosceptics in Britain"

Fiscal Union is a long term project and does nothing to solve the problems that face Europe; stalling growth, unemployment and colossal debt.

It is said that austerity measures adopted in the PIIGS countries will have an effect opposite to that intended. How can you have growth, which you need to pay off the debt, when businesses are closing right left and centre? When the average person who pays taxes is out of work and instead of paying taxes to satisfy the debt is instead claiming benefits, which have to be borrowed thus increasing the debt?

I came across a good wheeze the other day. Have you ever heard of Hypothecation?

"…hypothecation is when a borrower pledges collateral to secure a debt. The borrower retains ownership of the collateral but is “hypothetically” controlled by the creditor, who has a right to seize possession if the borrower defaults." (reuters)

"Why do this? It’s in part about who gets to show what assets as still being on their books while others get to use said assets as collateral for their own loans. Which brings us to ‘re-hypothecation“. Who says an asset that has been “hypothecated” once can’t be “re-hypothecated”? Well actually no one. The UK and the US authorities have spent a decade removing any restraint of Hypothecation to bring us to where we are now.

So, Bank 1 has an asset. It badly needs cash because it’s nearly broke. It hypothecates its asset to bank 2. Bank 2 also needs/wants a loan.So it turns to bank 3 and says, I happen to have a lovely asset which I hypothetically control, would you like it? Bank 3 says great. So bank 2 gets its loan which it probably uses to make other loans, while the asset it got from bank 1 is re-hypothecated to bank 3. Now bank 3 hypothetically controls the asset. Bank 3 turns to bank 4 and does the same.
We now have 4 banks three of whom hypothetically control the original asset which is in fact still where it started, in bank 1 – a bank which was in such trouble it had to hypothecate its assets. Along the way, however, three banks have used the asset to get themselves loans and all of those loans rest on hypothetical control of the original asset. A pyramid of loans and obligations rest on a single asset whose control is now not at all clear should any one along the chain need to assert their control or need it back to pay off their debts – should anything go wrong in the the ventures into which they put the money they borrowed on the strength of the ‘asset’. And THAT my fellow citizens is why the bankers insist they get paid so much.
So now we have a whole new bag of questions. What assets do you think have been hypothecated and rehypothecated recently? European bonds perhaps? And which banks might be heavily involved and exposed to the trade? German banks and British Banks? French banks. American Banks?"

(Credit to David Monroe for the explanation)

This is only a tiny part of what has been going on and is still going on. Sooner rather than later in this game of pass-the-debt-parcel the music is going to stop.

Maybe it will be the market reaction to Thursday's summit that will stop the music. Who knows?
But whatever it is, the consequences will be catastrophic and global.

Margaret Pilkington · 11-12-2011, 14:30

It is a convoluted process .......not one I profess to understand fully, but isn't this the kind of thing that got Bernard Madoff incarcerated for fraud?

Margaret Pilkington · 11-12-2011, 14:33

The EFSF denies it is in an illegal pyramid style organisation....well, it would, wouldn't it?
EFSF Denies It Is An Illegal Pyramid Scheme | ZeroHedge

mobertol · 11-12-2011, 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

I came across a good wheeze the other day. Have you ever heard of Hypothecation?
This is only a tiny part of what has been going on and is still going on. Sooner rather than later in this game of pass-the-debt-parcel the music is going to stop.

Maybe it will be the market reaction to Thursday's summit that will stop the music. Who knows?
But whatever it is, the consequences will be catastrophic and global.

Surprisingly it is something I had heard of -a similar theory is explained in the Zeitgeist documentaries in the part about global finance.

If you know how to play Monopoly and have played it to death, you will have worked out that re-mortgaging your properties for a quick fix to your finances might work short-term, but in the long-term it's the way to lose the game...unless you are one of those "jammy" players who always throws a 6, has get out of jail free cards and gets past GO!

So it's all a financial merry-go-round, until it stops and everyone falls off!

You can have as much gold as you want to back up your loan system and print off as much "new money" as you like to make it seem like things are going well. At the end of the day it's a lack of resources and production which matter.

The old triangle, with solid manufacturing for wealth production as the base, has been turned on it's head and is about to topple over.

Will we go back to barter do you think - or as they propose in Zeitgeist an end to a monetary system and a utopian world where everyone can use the resourses and technology available and live a perfect life?

DaveinGermany · 11-12-2011, 14:47

A laymans view to accompany A-B's very good example.

It is a slow day in a little Greek Village. The rain is beating down and the streets are deserted.
Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit. On this particular day a rich German tourist is driving through the village, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk, telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night.
The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.
The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer.
The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel.
The guy at the Farmers' Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the taverna.
The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him "services" on credit.
The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the €100 note.
The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter so the rich traveller will not suspect anything.
At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the €100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town.
No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole village is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism. And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is how the bailout package works.

Acrylic-bob · 11-12-2011, 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by mobertol

Will we go back to barter do you think

Perhaps in some of the PIIGS that might happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mobertol

or as they propose in Zeitgeist an end to a monetary system and a utopian world where everyone can use the resourses and technology available and live a perfect life?

That is a forlorn hope, born out of youthful naivety. No, after a period of looting, rioting and general social disorder, a great many may die and several governments will fall, and then it will be back to business as usual. If we are lucky we will escape a war (though the americans may provoke one, like the overreacting queens they really are!).
Then brick by brick we will have to rebuild our lives and our society. I don't think it is possible to estimate how much will be lost or what will be left to rebuild with. Pension funds will be wiped off the face of the earth as will most of the stock market. Major insurers will also go the way of all flesh. But one thing is certain there will still be bankers. There will be platitudes aplenty but no apologies and they will be straining at the leash to do it all over again and there will still be politicians to aid and abett them. And we, like fools, will allow it. Because, like the Bankers and the Politicians, we are too stupid to learn from our mistakes and are thus condemned to repeat them.

The lesson of Dickens' A Christmas Carol seems very pertinent as the year comes to an end.

Can somebody email me some Prozac.....PLEASE!

MargaretR · 11-12-2011, 15:20

The end of the EU in sight, as per my favourite trend forecaster.