Accy Old Photo's - John Kelly's Album - Page 19

blackburnlad · 09-02-2011, 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by katex

Hate to mention this again, but I have an old newspaper cutting on licensing laws, and lists all the beerhouses in 1869, and the Slater's Arms was recorded as being at No. 21, Whalley Road. W. Wilkinson being the Landlord. 'Course that could have been a misprint ... LOL.

With all due respect katex, your newspaper cutting was very probably 100% correct for 1869. The thread I joined in was discussing the premises in the photograph, which is quite obviously from the late 1920's - early 1930's. You only have to look at the way the old chap is dressed to see that. If you need more evidence that it is from that period, you can see the place was virtually falling down. Someone mentioned Broadway was created in the mid 1930's ? So the pub in the photo would have been demolished just prior to that date. Look at the signage along the top at roof level, on the Marquis St elevation, it reads Mercer's Meat Stout. Dutton's didn't acquire Mercer's (an Adlington brewery) until the late 1920's.

So as you say, back in 1869 the address of the Slaters Arms, whether it was the pictured premises or a premises further along could very well have been number 21, but that isn't really relevant to the location of the pub pictured, which was the theme of the thread.

Take a look at the little section of the OS map I stuck on here the other night. The premises I marked with a red cross is the premises in the photo(s). Next count the individual properties from the corner of Peel St, where almost everyone agreed was the start of Whalley Rd. You have number 1 on the curved corner of Peel St, then 3, 5, 7, 9 (then there's a yard or something), then the last property on that block (number 11), cross Marquis St and you have the Slaters Arms at number 13.

Pubs changed names at times, sometimes even changed house number / premises number, but I'm convinced that the pub in the photo was number 13 Whalley Road when the photo was taken (not 21 and not 23).

blackburnlad · 09-02-2011, 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw

I suggest you read the posts again, I cannot find any of my posts on the Slaters Arms, mentioning that the information came from a directory. Specsavers have an offer on at the moment.
I don't use Kelly Directories or any of the others, because of the errors in them.
Also many Pubs and Ale Houses in different locations, have used the same name, over the past 150 years, so what a place was called in 1850, doesn't mean it has the same name in 1920.
If you want to solve a mystery, where was the Rose and Crown in Accrington, some of those directories list it as being in Old Accrington & others in New Accrington, even on streets which didn't exist.
It must have had wheels on it, it moved around so much.
Retlaw

I couldn't tell you where the Rose & Crown is now Walter, nor do I care.

I could have sworn that you referred to a directory, but if not, then my apologies. Where then did you source the fact that in 186? it was at number 23? The census returns possibly (they never contained errors did they

). Not that it matters, as I have just explained to katex, the photo under discussion was an early 20th century image, not a mid 19th century one. At the time the photo was taken, the Slaters was number 13.

Retlaw · 09-02-2011, 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackburnlad

I couldn't tell you where the Rose & Crown is now Walter, nor do I care.

I could have sworn that you referred to a directory, but if not, then my apologies. Where then did you source the fact that in 186? it was at number 23? The census returns possibly (they never contained errors did they

). Not that it matters, as I have just explained to katex, the photo under discussion was an early 20th century image, not a mid 19th century one. At the time the photo was taken, the Slaters was number 13.

1869 Newspaper, licence renewals. Slaters Arms, 21 Whalley Rd, Accrington. William Wilkinson, renewal granted
Retlaw.

blackburnlad · 09-02-2011, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw

1869 Newspaper, licence renewals. Slaters Arms, 21 Whalley Rd, Accrington. William Wilkinson, renewal granted
Retlaw.

And you dismiss and mistrust the trade directories? Our national and our respective local rags never make mistakes do they?

What's that old saying 'Don't believe everything you read in the papers'

Not for a second saying they were wrong back in 1869 mind you, they were probably right, but as in my last two comments, it's information that is totally irrelevant to the 1920's / 30's photo that was being discussed.

Anyway, I'm trying to watch the football,so got to go. have a pleasant evening !

Retlaw · 09-02-2011, 18:50

Take a look at the little section of the OS map I stuck on here the other night. The premises I marked with a red cross is the premises in the photo(s). Next count the individual properties from the corner of Peel St, where almost everyone agreed was the start of Whalley Rd. You have number 1 on the curved corner of Peel St, then 3, 5, 7, 9 (then there's a yard or something), then the last property on that block (number 11), cross Marquis St and you have the Slaters Arms at number 13.

Pubs changed names at times, sometimes even changed house number / premises number, but I'm convinced that the pub in the photo was number 13 Whalley Road when the photo was taken (not 21 and not 23).[/quote]
There was a lot more property on Whalley Rd from the top of Peel St, to the junction with Marquis St. Peel St wasn't always as wide as that, and the numbers didn't jump the empty space, you refer to as a yard, empty plots which were intended for property, were included in the numbering system, when house numbering became compulsory in the late 1850's.
Your 1909 map may be right for that year, but thats all it is, right for that year.
There are many streets and roads in Accrington with gaps in the numbering system Warner St has been renumbered from top to bottom and bottom to top twice since 1860.

Retlaw.

Retlaw · 09-02-2011, 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackburnlad

And you dismiss and mistrust the trade directories? Our national and our respective local rags never make mistakes do they?

What's that old saying 'Don't believe everything you read in the papers'
That saying refers to lurid stories designed to attract readers, now you are just prevaricating to try and win a discussion.
Not for a second saying they were wrong back in 1869 mind you, they were probably right, but as in my last two comments, it's information that is totally irrelevant to the 1920's / 30's photo that was being discussed.

Anyway, I'm trying to watch the football,so got to go. have a pleasant evening !

Why should a report on the licensing renewals be wrong, we all know mistakes are made in printed format, none more so than those trade directories, I've found many errors in the newspapers especially during WW1, even the same man reported in tha Accy Observer, the Accy Gazette and the Blackburn Weekly Telegraph, could be different.
To prove newspapers made gross errors can be found on Accringon's War Memorial, most of those names came from the Greater Accrington Roll of Honour, which has resulted in 11 men being named twice, through printing errors.
Retlaw.

walkinman221 · 09-02-2011, 19:30

I think his danders up

Atarah · 09-02-2011, 19:45

Time for a truce please fellas

Retlaw · 09-02-2011, 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atarah

Time for a truce please fellas

Why should I back down when I know I'm right.
I've attached further proof that it was originally 21& 23 Whalley Rd,
The licensing renewals show it & the 1871 Census gives the same information. How much more proof is he going to need, before he puts his hand up.
Retlaw.

blackburnlad · 10-02-2011, 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw

Why should a report on the licensing renewals be wrong, we all know mistakes are made in printed format, none more so than those trade directories, I've found many errors in the newspapers especially during WW1, even the same man reported in tha Accy Observer, the Accy Gazette and the Blackburn Weekly Telegraph, could be different.
To prove newspapers made gross errors can be found on Accringon's War Memorial, most of those names came from the Greater Accrington Roll of Honour, which has resulted in 11 men being named twice, through printing errors.
Retlaw.

I've already stated the licensing report was probably quite correct, but as I say, the 1869 report has no relevance to the photo under discussion. That photo whether you accept it or not Walter is either the very late 1920's or the early 1930's. As I said earlier, Dutton's didn't buy Mercer's until the late 1920's. The clothes the man is wearing are of that period.

blackburnlad · 10-02-2011, 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw

Take a look at the little section of the OS map I stuck on here the other night. The premises I marked with a red cross is the premises in the photo(s). Next count the individual properties from the corner of Peel St, where almost everyone agreed was the start of Whalley Rd. You have number 1 on the curved corner of Peel St, then 3, 5, 7, 9 (then there's a yard or something), then the last property on that block (number 11), cross Marquis St and you have the Slaters Arms at number 13.

Pubs changed names at times, sometimes even changed house number / premises number, but I'm convinced that the pub in the photo was number 13 Whalley Road when the photo was taken (not 21 and not 23).

There was a lot more property on Whalley Rd from the top of Peel St, to the junction with Marquis St. Peel St wasn't always as wide as that, and the numbers didn't jump the empty space, you refer to as a yard, empty plots which were intended for property, were included in the numbering system, when house numbering became compulsory in the late 1850's.
Your 1909 map may be right for that year, but thats all it is, right for that year.
There are many streets and roads in Accrington with gaps in the numbering system Warner St has been renumbered from top to bottom and bottom to top twice since 1860.

Retlaw.[/QUOTE]

Heck Walt, you don't need a degree in town planning to see that the old 1909 map and the 2 photos match perfectly. In the second photo that shows both the Slaters and the Peel/Broadway pub, you can see they were more or less opposite one another.

blackburnlad · 10-02-2011, 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw

Why should I back down when I know I'm right.
I've attached further proof that it was originally 21& 23 Whalley Rd,
The licensing renewals show it & the 1871 Census gives the same information. How much more proof is he going to need, before he puts his hand up.
Retlaw.

Once again Walter. What relevance has the 1871 census got to do with a late 1920's /1930's photograph. There's close on a 60 year time frame there. I could name you many pubs in Blackburn that have been and gone, changed name, changed proprietors over the last 10 years, never mind over a 60 year period.

You are clutching at straws sir and your comment ''Why should I back down when I know I'm right'' just about says it all. There's not even a mere hint from you to suggest that I might (just might) be correct. It's that arrogance and attitude that brought me into this discussion. I took umbrage at the fact that you were (seemingly) reprimanding more junior members, because they dared to offer opinions on a discussion that you had already decided was done and dusted (even though it wasn't).

Yes, you carry on telling everyone you're right, produce as many documents you like (irrelevant as they are), but if people study the evidence enough, they will arrive at their own conclusion.

I've had enough experience when researching local history to know that no single source is evidence enough, there's a need to cross reference and cross reference again, but if some want to believe you are right, because YOU say you're right, that is their choice.

***Mr D*** · 10-02-2011, 11:29

Who would of though Local History could be so intence.

Retlaw · 10-02-2011, 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackburnlad

There was a lot more property on Whalley Rd from the top of Peel St, to the junction with Marquis St. Peel St wasn't always as wide as that, and the numbers didn't jump the empty space, you refer to as a yard, empty plots which were intended for property, were included in the numbering system, when house numbering became compulsory in the late 1850's.
Your 1909 map may be right for that year, but thats all it is, right for that year.
There are many streets and roads in Accrington with gaps in the numbering system Warner St has been renumbered from top to bottom and bottom to top twice since 1860.

Retlaw.

Heck Walt, you don't need a degree in town planning to see that the old 1909 map and the 2 photos match perfectly. In the second photo that shows both the Slaters and the Peel/Broadway pub, you can see they were more or less opposite one another.[/quote]
I've never disputed that it was on the opposite corner to the Peel.
My argument is the number of the property, 21& 23 Whalley Rd,
both in the licencing renewals, and the 1871 census show the same man in the same prroperty 21 & 23 Whalley Rd.
1860, 1909 or 1920, the property had the same number.
Retlaw.

Jim Procter · 10-02-2011, 13:29

Dont stop now Retlaw and Blacburnlad. I do so enjoy your little contretemps. Long may it continue.