Hanging - Page 5

mobertol · 30-12-2011, 08:49

Don't really know what it's like in prisons over here except to say there is over-crowding and a big problem with drugs/AIDS. This from TV reports not any personal experience or info from friends.

I suppose the Human Rights brigade have made life cushier for many in UK jails -stories heard of peoples rights to have children even when in for life etc. The SKY exposée earlier this year was pretty shocking - very lax security and lack of discipline. Perhaps they could do with a few of our old nuns from school to get them behaving!

jaysay · 30-12-2011, 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by mobertol

Don't really know what it's like in prisons over here except to say there is over-crowding and a big problem with drugs/AIDS. This from TV reports not any personal experience or info from friends.

I suppose the Human Rights brigade have made life cushier for many in UK jails -stories heard of peoples rights to have children even when in for life etc. The SKY exposée earlier this year was pretty shocking - very lax security and lack of discipline. Perhaps they could do with a few of our old nuns from school to get them behaving!

If it wasn't so serious I too would find it funny

mobertol · 30-12-2011, 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

If it wasn't so serious I too would find it funny

The only "funny" thing i can think of remotely connected to prison is "Porridge" John.

Eric · 30-12-2011, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

A couple of friends of mine are Magistrates, and they both went on a visit to Lancaster Farm, Young offenders institute. They both came to the conclusion that this was no deterrent what so ever, was like a 5 star hotel to some of them and the majority would rather be there than at home. This is significant with our penal system throughout, they are better treated than pensioners, thus the usual statement I can do the time stood on my head, now if we made the penal service a place where no body wants to return we'd be getting somewhere, I'm sure that criminals are not given the same consideration in Italy or anywhere else for that matter, because all the hand wringing woolly headed liberals live in good old Britain

In order to understand deterrance, or at least say something intelligent about it, one has to look at the rate of recidivism. Now, as the US jails are so much more punishment oriented than those in the UK, then one would expect fewer returnees. If UK jails are so cushy, one would think that petty criminals ... say small-time robbers ... would be lining up to get back in as the winter weather approaches. And, of course, the opposite would be true in the US. Strange to say, US recidivism rates are way higher than those in Britain.

For the crime of robbery, for example, US recidivism rates are as high as 70%

The much lower recidivism rate in the UK has been attributed, in many studies, to the British focus on rehabilitation rather than on punishment.

Don't expect this argument to have much effect on the hang 'em high, bring back the lash crowd on here ... they seem to be beyond reason. It doesn't seem to matter to them that in Britain, and Canada for that matter, crime rates and recidivism rates are dropping owing to policies focussing on education and rehabilitation, rather than on punishment and deterrant.

Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the UK had 5 murders over the holiday season (ok, Christmas

) ... holy feces

FIVE!!!!!!!!!!! In the Land of the Free, and the Home of the Electric Chair, this total reflects a slow wednesday in Detroit.

kestrelx · 30-12-2011, 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

Well it will never be brought back claytonx, it wouldn't be so bad if murderer WERE sent down for life, I can never understand any judge saying I sentence you to life in prison and you'll serve a minimum of, say, 15 years, utter nonsense, say what you like about the American justice system, they do make the punishment fit the crime, pity we done follow suit here

Yes they may be tough on crime but they still have massive levels of crime including murder - so basically the death sentence doesn't deter crime. The death sentence only satisfies those who think that terminating someone's life punishes them - it only gives them their pain in a condensed dose, why not let them suffer in prison for life, surely ultimately that is more of a punishment.

mobertol · 30-12-2011, 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric

Don't expect this argument to have much effect on the hang 'em high, bring back the lash crowd on here ... they seem to be beyond reason. It doesn't seem to matter to them that in Britain, and Canada for that matter, crime rates and recidivism rates are dropping owing to policies focussing on education and rehabilitation, rather than on punishment and deterrant.

Great point -there has to be punishment of course, loss of freedom for many would be punishment enough. (It would for me anyway!)

Rehabilitation and education are fundamental if we expect offenders to be able to re-enter society and take up jobs. It is particularly hard for young people to manage this if they have no support network. Would you employ someone with a record or a person who has never offended? Time is one thing people have on their hands while in prison - it should be used constructively, learning useful skills and improving the possibility for an offender to become a full member of society once their sentence is completed.

kestrelx · 30-12-2011, 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric

In order to understand deterrance, or at least say something intelligent about it, one has to look at the rate of recidivism. Now, as the US jails are so much more punishment oriented than those in the UK, then one would expect fewer returnees. If UK jails are so cushy, one would think that petty criminals ... say small-time robbers ... would be lining up to get back in as the winter weather approaches. And, of course, the opposite would be true in the US. Strange to say, US recidivism rates are way higher than those in Britain.

For the crime of robbery, for example, US recidivism rates are as high as 70%

The much lower recidivism rate in the UK has been attributed, in many studies, to the British focus on rehabilitation rather than on punishment.

Don't expect this argument to have much effect on the hang 'em high, bring back the lash crowd on here ... they seem to be beyond reason. It doesn't seem to matter to them that in Britain, and Canada for that matter, crime rates and recidivism rates are dropping owing to policies focussing on education and rehabilitation, rather than on punishment and deterrant.

Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the UK had 5 murders over the holiday season (ok, Christmas

) ... holy feces

FIVE!!!!!!!!!!! In the Land of the Free, and the Home of the Electric Chair, this total reflects a slow wednesday in Detroit.

Don't you think that it's the influence of American culture that is influencing the gang crime in this country that is responsible for the increase in shootings and stabbings etc?

jaysay · 30-12-2011, 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by kestrelx

Yes they may be tough on crime but they still have massive levels of crime including murder - so basically the death sentence doesn't deter crime. The death sentence only satisfies those who think that terminating someone's life punishes them - it only gives them their pain in a condensed dose, why not let them suffer in prison for life, surely ultimately that is more of a punishment.

Oh ya great, keeping Ian Huntley behind bars is costing £1 million per year, he has every luxury he wants three square a day, the warders call him either Sir or Mr Huntley, life's a dream, now if the git was breaking rocks 10 hours a day and locked in his cell for the other 14 without any toys or TV on bread and water, then ya okay that would be fine, but in britain's butlins holiday camp prisons, punishment, don't make me laugh my lips are chapped

jaysay · 30-12-2011, 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by kestrelx

Don't you think that it's the influence of American culture that is influencing the gang crime in this country that is responsible for the increase in shootings and stabbings etc?

The influence comes from the yardie gangs from the caribbean, every been down peckham south London

susie123 · 30-12-2011, 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by kestrelx

Don't you think that it's the influence of American culture that is influencing the gang crime in this country that is responsible for the increase in shootings and stabbings etc?

You have a point there, and Eric you are talking a lot of sense. Please continue.

I would like to mention a case from personal experience and see what you think. I have visited five prisons in my time: Wormwood Scrubs, Dartmoor, Kingston (Portsmouth), Portland (Dorset) and Channings Wood (Devon) as a school friend of my partner was gaoled for life in the mid 1970s for stabbing his mother in law with whom he was having an affair at the time. He was still in prison in the 1990s so not all murderers get out after 10 or 12 years as has been suggested. Eventually he was sent to one of the prisons on the IOW, Parkhurst I think, where we did not visit him. He was hanged eventually... by his own hand.

Now I don't know what mental problems he had, as I didn't know him before he went to prison, but I'm sure they didn't improve while he was inside. I also don't know why he was inside for so long. I think most murderers must have some degree of instability to do what they do.

My question is - would it have been better to hang him on day 1 rather than try to sort him out? I don't agree with a life for a life but you can never tell whether someone will respond to rehabilitation attempts before they start.

Eric · 30-12-2011, 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by susie123

You have a point there, and Eric you are talking a lot of sense. Please continue.

I would like to mention a case from personal experience and see what you think. I have visited five prisons in my time: Wormwood Scrubs, Dartmoor, Kingston (Portsmouth), Portland (Dorset) and Channings Wood (Devon) as a school friend of my partner was gaoled for life in the mid 1970s for stabbing his mother in law with whom he was having an affair at the time. He was still in prison in the 1990s so not all murderers get out after 10 or 12 years as has been suggested. Eventually he was sent to one of the prisons on the IOW, Parkhurst I think, where we did not visit him. He was hanged eventually... by his own hand.

Now I don't know what mental problems he had, as I didn't know him before he went to prison, but I'm sure they didn't improve while he was inside. I also don't know why he was inside for so long. I think most murderers must have some degree of instability to do what they do.

My question is - would it have been better to hang him on day 1 rather than try to sort him out? I don't agree with a life for a life but you can never tell whether someone will respond to rehabilitation attempts before they start.

Susie, hon, it's not that I'm talking sense. The whole issue is a no brainer ... with wrinkles of course. Those who argue that the death penalty is a deterrent are obviously unable to marshall readilly available data into an inevitable argument that a deterrent it is not. And those who argue that it should be employed in order to save money ... well, I leave you to your own conclusions.

And I was interested to read that there is a Kingston Prison in Portsmouth. Kingston Pen, the oldest in English Canada, is in Portsmouth Village, Kingston.

Don't look much like a luxury hotel to me.

Eric · 30-12-2011, 21:30

Oops ... sorry about the syntax; I was having a Yoda moment.

Michael1954 · 30-12-2011, 21:36

I mentioned Stefan Kiszko earlier in this thread. His life in prison was anything but a luxury. He was attacked on several occasions and constantly treated with contempt, not only by his fellow prisoners but also the guards. He endured 16 years of this until his release. He did not last long on the outside, probably because of the emotional scars of his life in prison. Oh, and let's not forget he was an innocent man.