Originally Posted by Caz (Post 682421)

Can I just say that I have only lived in my area for 2 months and I know who the councillors are. I lived in my last area for 18 months, I knew who my councillors were. When I lived in spring hill I was only there for a couple of years and new who the councillor was, also of the residents committee, which I joined, because I made it my business to find out. "Only" living in that ward for 2 years is no excuse.

As far as speaking for anyone else not knowing who their local councillor is, you don't seem to have a clue what is going on yourself, so how can you come on here and try and represent anyone elses views? Good job there aren't too many naive people in your ward otherwise G. Jones & Bernard Dawson wouldn't be there to represent you.

Can you tell me what changes you want made on a national level, and how these can be implemented?

Originally Posted by Caz (Post 682421)

Can I just say that I have only lived in my area for 2 months and I know who the councillors are. I lived in my last area for 18 months, I knew who my councillors were. When I lived in spring hill I was only there for a couple of years and new who the councillor was, also of the residents committee, which I joined, because I made it my business to find out. "Only" living in that ward for 2 years is no excuse.

As far as speaking for anyone else not knowing who their local councillor is, you don't seem to have a clue what is going on yourself, so how can you come on here and try and represent anyone elses views? Good job there aren't too many naive people in your ward otherwise G. Jones & Bernard Dawson wouldn't be there to represent you.

Can you tell me what changes you want made on a national level, and how these can be implemented?

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682429)

The latter part of your question i will answer tonight as i am going to work shortly.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682419)

I think it's scandalous that you've received no leaflets, or have not been canvassed by the Conservative party at election times, telling you what a good job they are doing in Hyndburn.

Sadly you didn't even receive a lovely calendar, as you aren't represented by Conservative councillors.

Shocking state of affairs.[/ The calender is not important to me im not bothered about that one although its a nice thought to send it out to members equally i havent been canvassed by any Labour councillors.I will make my decision if they are doing a good job in Hyndburn in due course when i am better in-formed as you say i am a tad naive at this present time.

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682428)

I have already presented the question to all my friends at work neighbours and some family members approxiamtely twenty members of the public for your information only seven people could tell me what ward they resided in and who was their concillorwas.

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682428)

I have already presented the question to all my friends at work neighbours and some family members approxiamtely twenty members of the public for your information only seven people could tell me what ward they resided in and who was their concillorwas.

Originally Posted by Caz (Post 682430)

will give you time to think I suppose...

Originally Posted by Royboy39 (Post 682532)

-I think we all need to think long and hard on that one.

It took the twelve years in government by the Labour Party to put the country in an absolute mess. How can you expect the lady to come up with ideas in a couple of seconds?..... you have got to be joking?

Even your MP as good as he is would be hard pressed to answer that one.

Originally Posted by Caz (Post 682554)

OK maybe I phrased the question wrongly, was being slightly facetious. :eek:

The lady stated she had previously been Labour at national level, but she would be voting Tory this time, I was wondering why, and what she thought the a Tory goverment would do in her favour, what she wants to see done? That should be easy surely, she shouldn't need to think about that?

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682391)

I kind of take you point here. As for voteing im absoulutely clear on that point who i will be voteing for in the general election as i clearly view it their is no choice we need change and the sooner the better but at least i dont have to worry about that one as we all know what will happen. True i was unable to tell you who i would vote for in the local elections this is were my ignorance prevails i have honestly never bothered due to the fact i truly beleived that they had little power in the grander scheme of things but A.B. has put me straight on that one and yes i wasnt unaware until of late who my councillor was i have never had any leaflets through my door most importantly know one has ever come to my house canvassing.

Originally Posted by claytonender (Post 682596)

I find it very hard to believe that you have never received any leaflets from your councillor as Graham jones delivered leaflets to all households in his ward last year. In 2007 I helped Graham deliver Christmas cards in Peeil Ward (and we definitely delivered cards in Turkey Street). In 2008 Graham Jones and Bernard Dawson delivered Christmas Cards to every household in Peel ward.

Incidentally the Christmas cards delivered in 2007 and 2008 were paid for personally by the Labour Ward Councillors and did not cost the Council Tax payer of Hyndburn any money whatsoever. Which is something that your son Andrew disagrees with, he thinks it is better for the Council Tax payers of Hyndburn to pay for the production and delivery of Area Council calendars.

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 682603)

Now I understand why you have so many councillors ... it takes a lot of bodies to do all the mail deliveries:eek: On the one hand, it is kinda nice to have the personal delivery thing; but shouldn't councillors spend their time more productively ... I mean, delivering cards requires about as much skill as flipping burgers ............. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682608)

At least the Christmas cards don't cost the recipient any money...unlike the calendars, the chosen 'gift' of some councillors.

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 682614)

... but isn't it something that all political parties do?

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 682603)

Now I understand why you have so many councillors ... it takes a lot of bodies to do all the mail deliveries:eek: On the one hand, it is kinda nice to have the personal delivery thing; but shouldn't councillors spend their time more productively ... I mean, delivering cards requires about as much skill as flipping burgers ............. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 682626)

Last year and the year before they went out with a newsletter - twice as efficient! This year I didn't have time to do the Newsletter.

Obviously it is a nice thing to do. I include all the emergency numbers which is very helpful to people over the holidays and beyond so there is more to it than a snowy picture on the front. A lot of people thought this a very useful idea.

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 682635)

I see your point, and Garinda's too,

Oh, and if you have a shortage of snowy pictures, feel free to ask,; I have an abundance, and with snow forcast for the next 3 days, I can take lots more:D

Originally Posted by Bagpuss (Post 682003)

Don't know about shakermaker but I would like to go to one when is the next one?

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682426)

The calendar should be important to you, because although sent by only Conservative councillors, it was funded by everyone, including yourself, via your Council Tax.

So on behalf of myself, thanks for paying for mine, although this year's meagre effort went straight into the recycling sack, unlike the twelve paged, full colour calendar from three years ago, which is safely stored away with other treasured collectibles.

Originally Posted by claytonender (Post 682596)

Which is something that your son Andrew disagrees with, he thinks it is better for the Council Tax payers of Hyndburn to pay for the production and delivery of Area Council calendars.

Originally Posted by claytonender (Post 682596)

I find it very hard to believe that you have never received any leaflets from your councillor as Graham jones delivered leaflets to all households in his ward last year. In 2007 I helped Graham deliver Christmas cards in Peeil Ward (and we definitely delivered cards in Turkey Street). In 2008 Graham Jones and Bernard Dawson delivered Christmas Cards to every household in Peel ward.

Incidentally the Christmas cards delivered in 2007 and 2008 were paid for personally by the Labour Ward Councillors and did not cost the Council Tax payer of Hyndburn any money whatsoever. Which is something that your son Andrew disagrees with, he thinks it is better for the Council Tax payers of Hyndburn to pay for the production and delivery of Area Council calendars.

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 682646)

I didn't intend to post here again as there was nothing more to say, however I must correct you. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and PM'ed you asking you retract this incorrect statement about me. You decided against it, therefore this post is to inform everyone that this is not actually what I believe. Yet another Labour councillor getting things wrong. Next thing you know they'll be claiming we have the most expensive council tax in the country. What people won't do for votes. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682622)

Well in the case of the Christmas cards and calendars, in a word no.

One party, Labour, apparently paid for the cards out of their own pocket, whilst the Conservatives got the local tax payer to foot the bill for their 'gift'.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682432)

Perhaps you only know people who live in a similar bubble?

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682645)

Your welcome i dont mind contributing to the calender at all with my tax money i think it was a nice gesture to members and a great idea for advertising whoever thought of the idea hats of to them my guess is it wouldnt have cost that much money to fund.

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682645)

Well all I can say to that is more fool you.

Happily not wearing blinkers allows me to phyically see a hundred and one ways tax payer's money could be better spent in Hyndburn.

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 682646)

I didn't intend to post here again as there was nothing more to say, however I must correct you. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and PM'ed you asking you retract this incorrect statement about me. You decided against it, therefore this post is to inform everyone that this is not actually what I believe. Yet another Labour councillor getting things wrong. Next thing you know they'll be claiming we have the most expensive council tax in the country. What people won't do for votes. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Royboy39 (Post 682664)

You've just quoted yourself Rindi....and thats not like you. :)

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682665)

That's the trouble if you give your word, in this case that you'd given your last word on this subject, it's that you really must mean it.

If in doubt, always keep your options open, so that when you say something, people will know they really can believe you.;)

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682665)

That's the trouble if you give your word, in this case that you'd given your last word on this subject, it's that you really must mean it.

If in doubt, always keep your options open, so that when you say something, people will know they really can believe you.;)

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682662)

Well all I can say to that is more fool you.

Happily not wearing blinkers allows me to phyically see a hundred and one ways tax payer's money could be better spent in Hyndburn.

Originally Posted by claytonender (Post 682649)

Andrew maybe if you had asked me online rather than through private messages I would have rephrased my comments, but I am not prepared to do things 'behind closed doors'.

One day Andrew you will grow up - learn what life is all about - how it feels to have to feed and clothe a family, pay bills and a mortgage and rent, and have to juggle your money to do so. You might even have to go without food to pay the bills and feed your children - I have had to do so in the past. You might even be made redundant in the middle of a recession -that happened to me twice under the Tories -and suffer the indignity of having to queue (in a queue that stretches well out into the street) to sign on. Then you will be qualified to lecture me about politics.

My mother would had a saying for people like you 'he has swallowed the map.'

As for the behavior of the ruling Tory group on Hyndburn Council - they are not capable to organize a drink in a brewery.

Graham Jones (who you appear to have a pathological dislike for) is hardworking and extremely intelligent and cares passionately about the people of this borough and unlike most of the Tories he is not out for every penny he can get for being a councillor. He has achieved all he has because he has had to battle for everything in life. When he left school there was only YTS (to put it another way -Tory legalised child labour) where you were paid a pittance and then discarded after 12 months because there was new supply of 'cannon fodder'. It amazes me how much people of Graham's age (which includes my own children and their friends) have achieved despite all the obstacles the Tory government put in there way.

By comparison you have it so easy - just wonder what you will have achieved by the time you are in your early 40's.

i did not attend university (like you) but I have learnt at lot from the great university of life and am still learning.

Andrew maybe you should tell Graham yourself what you have just posted in a private message to me. If you have anything more to say to me - please post in a public thread.

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682674)

I am not wearing blinkers at all in my opinion its a way of informing people and getting information out their for the clear reasons i have stated by doing my little survey in terms of individuals not knowing the ward their in or who their councillors are small price to pay for more votes and isnt this what its all about or tell me have i missed the point.

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 682646)

I didn't intend to post here again as there was nothing more to say, however I must correct you. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and PM'ed you asking you retract this incorrect statement about me. You decided against it, therefore this post is to inform everyone that this is not actually what I believe. Yet another Labour councillor getting things wrong. Next thing you know they'll be claiming we have the most expensive council tax in the country. What people won't do for votes. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682679)

Well even Mummy's little soldier has said it was wrong for public money to be spent on the Conservative's calendar.

Still at least there's one person in Hyndburn who thinks it was a wise way for hard earned taxes to be spent in the borough.

It's really quite a pity that you didn't get one.

(It was rubbish, literally, this year, by the way.)

;)

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682683)

I don't really understand why you felt the need to post in this thread, when you's said you weren't going to again, to imply that what Claytonender said was wrong.

She was probably referring to the comment you made in post 294 of the 'Britcliffe Monthly' thread, when you said, and I quote...

'Actually. The calendars were a waste of money. I take it all back.'

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...-18823-20.html

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682679)

Well even Mummy's little soldier has said it was wrong for public money to be spent on the Conservative's calendar.

Still at least there's one person in Hyndburn who thinks it was a wise way for hard earned taxes to be spent in the borough.

It's really quite a pity that you didn't get one.

(It was rubbish, literally, this year, by the way.)

;)

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 682686)

Well I wish she was referring to that correct statement Garinda.

I said I would not post on the matter again, which I haven't. The matter I posted about was different. ;)

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 682686)

Well I wish she was referring to that correct statement Garinda.

I said I would not post on the matter again, which I haven't. The matter I posted about was different. ;)

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682645)

Your welcome i dont mind contributing to the calender at all with my tax money i think it was a nice gesture to members and a great idea for advertising whoever thought of the idea hats of to them my guess is it wouldnt have cost that much money to fund.

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682689)

Democracy is about being able to have your opinion and i clearly stand by mine yes and i contibute to the tax system
its amazing why you should bring another into this that im related too,Childish in my view.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682697)

You replied to Claytonender's post, where she said...

'Which is something that your son Andrew disagrees with, he thinks it is better for the Council Tax payers of Hyndburn to pay for the production and delivery of Area Council calendars.'

Other than the calendars, which I honestly understand as being a fairly straightforward and accurate statement, why is what she posted wrong? So wrong in fact that it prompted you to go back on your word, and post once again?

You quite obviously disagree with the funding of the Conservative calendars, as shown by what you'd said in the 'Britcliffe Monthly' thread, and which I quoted earlier.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682701)

Er...it was you that first decided to inform us that you agreed whole heartedly with Andrew, and that you are his mother.

No one has mentioned that you don't pay tax, so you've lost me by mentioning that.

Originally Posted by claytonender (Post 682699)

Can I just enlighten you about something that is the Rishton's councillors are attempting to get started in Rishton (in fact the first meeting took place last night). They are attempting to set up Neighbourhood Management in Rishton, with the help of the Area Council staff, but without any funding from HBC being available. The money spent on Area Council calendars (£1500) in the 3 Areas that they were delivered (Peel & Barnfield, Oswaldtwistle and Great Harwood) could have been used to help set up this important scheme in Rishton.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682706)

Perhaps £1,500 isn't a lot of money to some people.

The fact that it represents the amount of hard earned money that someone in the borough of Hyndburn has to find each year to pay for it, if they live in a Band D house, is very relevant, especially when there are schemes like the one in Rishton crying out for funding, and none is apparently available.

Originally Posted by Royboy39 (Post 682703)

Rindi I accept your position but what the hell are we talking about?
Why not answer the question of where your taxes have been spent on a national level...or does this hurt?

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 682705)

that my friend is called "Double Standards":rolleyes: as it was Turkish Delight that first brought another into this thread- "Honest Andrew":D

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 682705)

that my friend is called "Double Standards":rolleyes: as it was Turkish Delight that first brought another into this thread- "Honest Andrew":D

Originally Posted by Royboy39 (Post 682703)

Rindi I accept your position but what the hell are we talking about?
Why not answer the question of where your taxes have been spent on a national level...or does this hurt?

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682715)

yes i admit i did say that but i was new to this thread then and naive that it would be used have surely learnt since:)

Originally Posted by claytonender (Post 682699)

Can I just enlighten you about something that is the Rishton's councillors are attempting to get started in Rishton (in fact the first meeting took place last night). They are attempting to set up Neighbourhood Management in Rishton, with the help of the Area Council staff, but without any funding from HBC being available. The money spent on Area Council calendars (£1500) in the 3 Areas that they were delivered (Peel & Barnfield, Oswaldtwistle and Great Harwood) could have been used to help set up this important scheme in Rishton.

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682648)

I never stated to anyone that i resided on Turkey Street. I can asure you have never recieved a christmas card or calender from either parties but would be happy to pay out of my tax money.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682718)

As for my 'position', it's a position where I'm genuinely free to speak my mind, and say what I think is right and wrong.

Unlike other's on here my 'position' isn't hindered by by any political allegiance, and having to worry that I'm not following the party line.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682697)

You replied to Claytonender's post, where she said...

'Which is something that your son Andrew disagrees with, he thinks it is better for the Council Tax payers of Hyndburn to pay for the production and delivery of Area Council calendars.'

Other than the calendars, which I honestly understand as being a fairly straightforward and accurate statement, why is what she posted wrong? So wrong in fact that it prompted you to go back on your word, and post once again?

You quite obviously disagree with the funding of the Conservative calendars, as shown by what you'd said in the 'Britcliffe Monthly' thread, and which I quoted earlier.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682723)

Yes but would you have seen them if they had been posted through your door?

Your voting card for the local elections, that by law is sent to everyone on the Electoral Register, was posted to you, and that quite clearly states the ward you live in, in big bold print, yet you obviously didn't see that, because earlier you said you had no idea which ward you lived in.

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682689)

Democracy is about being able to have your opinion and i clearly stand by mine yes and i contibute to the tax system
its amazing why you should bring another into this that im related too,Childish in my view.

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682715)

yes i admit i did say that but i was new to this thread then and naive that it would be used have surely learnt since:)

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682715)

yes i admit i did say that but i was new to this thread then and naive that it would be used have surely learnt since:)

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 682729)

naive or not "Double Standards" in my book i only used it too illustrate this fact.:)

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 682730)

Don't let them push you into a corner. I'd feel completely dishonest if you were going about in secret agreeing with me. You were open and transparent, good on you for it. People will only use the mother and son connection when they do not have a better argument. Laugh it off. ;)

Originally Posted by Royboy39 (Post 682732)

Thats clutching at straws Cashy? :confused:

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 682686)

Well I wish she was referring to that correct statement Garinda.

I said I would not post on the matter again, which I haven't. The matter I posted about was different. ;)

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 682745)

not really roy, even andrews doing it now,

[People will only use the mother and son connection when they do not have a better argument. Laugh it off.] when in fact it was not started by me, remove yer blinkers n you will see it to.:)

Originally Posted by claytonender (Post 682754)

This is a something I asked Andrew to answer, when he sent me a private message earlier, but he doesn't appear to want to provide an answer.

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 682755)

Your blinkers must be on, I never blamed you. ;)

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682743)

I am laughing it off so are all my friends. I dont agree with everything you say as is transparent on here, regarding the mother and son connection i will state this G.J and Claytonender dont stoop that low to use this in their defense and to be totally clear wether you agree with me or nor they have my respect for that one i feel they are representing in a totally professional manner un-like some.:)

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 681719)

I guess I should thank members for such an amusing thread, not so much Graham for his ill intentions, but his errors were rather amusing. This is the last I'll say on the matter.

Originally Posted by Royboy39 (Post 682725)

Thats fencing and avoiding the question.
You are not backward at coming forward so to speak.
Your views on the national position woud be interesting...go for it?
You are free to speak your mind I agree.
Would you have a bet on the outcome of the next general election? ;)

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 682760)

yer laughing - i'm doubled up here,YOU were the first to use the mother n son connection, it don't take Bamber Gascoingne to figure that one out.:D

Originally Posted by claytonender (Post 682754)

This is a something I asked Andrew to answer, when he sent me a private message earlier, but he doesn't appear to want to provide an answer.

Maybe you would like to tell me how Peter Britcliffe last year claimed Members Allowances of £27760.59 which is over twice as much as the highest paid member of Rossendale BC, when Hazel Harding (who is leader of LCC -which has a budget of millons of pounds and provide 72% of the services in Hyndburn and the other district councils in Lancashire) only had member's allowances of £39983.
Here is a link to LCC member's allowances for 2007 to 2008

http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/corpora...oc.asp?id=5295

The average household income in Church ward is £22K, it is obscene that Peter Britcliffe is claiming so much in allowances.

I would be interested in what thoughts the rest of you have about it.

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682750)

Hi Royboy it appears your blinkered to now that makes three of us well not to worry.

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682765)

They made this connection because i was honest enough to identify myself and again was naive new to the thread.

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 682770)

yeh could always appeal to my better nature.

But it would be pointless.:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:

Originally Posted by Mancie (Post 682769)

I mean I myself can't really get involed in this one because it's a local issue and I'm not local anymore

Originally Posted by Bagpuss (Post 682774)

So why are you still here?

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682743)

I am laughing it off so are all my friends. I dont agree with everything you say as is transparent on here, regarding the mother and son connection i will state this G.J and Claytonender dont stoop that low to use this in their defense and to be totally clear wether you agree with me or nor they have my respect for that one i feel they are representing in a totally professional manner un-like some.:)

Originally Posted by claytonender (Post 682762)

Andrew for someone, who said that they were not going to contribute to this thread again (yesterday post 587) you have not stuck to your word.

Originally Posted by Bagpuss (Post 682774)

So why are you still here?

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682728)

A christmas card i wouldnt have thrown that away i would have thought it was a nice gesture which ever party sent it.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682782)

I'm not so sure.

Can we really trust someone to spot a Christmas card, when they hadn't seen the name of their ward, printed in big black letters, on their polling card?

The jury's out on that one.

Personally I read everything.

Knowledge is power.

;)

Originally Posted by turkishdelight (Post 682785)

. yes knowledge is power but equally too much knowledge is dangerous.

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 682780)

Even for a politician you're awfully good at avoiding owning up for posting incorrect information. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 682790)

You would be advised to stick to issues. Joan simply made a factual point. Whilst you're here and you have dished out a critique of local Labour.

I asked what is the most positive thing the Conservatives have done locally (given they have been pulling the purse strings and trusted with making the decisions for the last decade)?

I published Labour's big achievements which I take it you think are good because you have chosen not to criticise.

As Kim puts in her SMS to me... waiting.......!! It's been 2 days and nothing, not even the great Jaysay has answered for you. Spouting is easy, doing, that's different.

Originally Posted by Mancie (Post 682769)

Yeah start a thread on National issues Roy.. I mean I myself can't really get involed in this one because it's a local issue and I'm not local anymore.. but hang on Roy.. your in Spain?

Originally Posted by claytonender (Post 682805)

Posted via Mobile Device
Andrew do you have 100percent proof that it was Labour who created the 'black hole' in HBC finances in the -
1year out of the last 10 (May 2002 to May 2003)that they were in control of HBC. Or is it just hearsay?

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 682727)

I didn't go back on my word, its unfortunate that you believe I did.

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 682802)

The council is sound financially, even rated an excellent council by the independent audit commission. A massive achievement considering what it was when they inherited it.

Originally Posted by claytonender (Post 682805)

Posted via Mobile Device
Andrew do you have 100percent proof that it was Labour who created the 'black hole' in HBC finances in the -
1year out of the last 10 (May 2002 to May 2003)that they were in control of HBC. Or is it just hearsay?

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 682808)

It seemed quite clear to me, because you'd referred to the amusing nature of the whole thread, that you would no longer be posting in it.

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 682809)

well andrew you have stated it........ claytonender is questioning it.... my challenge is "Prove It" show everyone if you are correct. please.:)

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 682809)

well andrew you have stated it........ claytonender is questioning it.... my challenge is "Prove It" show everyone if you are correct. please.:)

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 682812)

Well cashman I will certainly look into the black hole when home.