Re: The Tories
 

So thats what happened really to socialism? They became Dingles.:D

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A dying breed, Jay, a dying breed. :(

Re: The Tories
 

Yeah, we're a sorry lot.

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As i regarded meself one,i would say dead not dying?:eek:

Re: The Tories
 

You're probably right. Everything Socialist went pear shaped after Thatcher. I suppose a Socialist now is a sort of left-wing Tory. Oh God, I hope I'm wrong!!!

Re: The Tories
 

That's when they learned that unless they ditched socialism they'd never be elected again, enter Blair Brown and Co:rolleyes:

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Houseboy, I suggest you read Animal Farm, it is a very good analogy of Socalism.

As it happens, I am all for Socalism just as long as we all can wear Rolex wrist watches, drive Porsche 911 Turbo's have nice houses etc etc.. Oh hang on that's not allowed.

Re: The Tories
 

It is if your call Bob Crow BG:rolleyes:

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Read it several times, one of my favourite books. It's not an analogy of socialism though, it's an analogy of Stalinism, a completely different beast.
I long since realised that human nature makes true socialism very difficult to the point of impossibility, but the basic principles of socialism can and should be adopted to counter the sheer greed and selfishness that come from unfettered capitalism.
If it weren't for socialism (and the unions) we would still all be working for sixpence a fortnight, living in crap housing provided by an employer who could then make you homeless if he decided to sack you for being thirty seconds late. He could then fine you half a weeks wages for making an honest mistake at your job, put your five year old child to work, make you work twelve hour days, six days a week and even sack you for not attending church on your one day off. The wages would be so poor that your wife may have to go on the game to subsidise your pitiful income, subjecting herself to the whims of people like your employer, who is one of the few who can afford anything at all. Said wife would not, of course have a vote either.
If anyone thinks that this is a flight of fantasy please take a short course in sociology at any college and you will find that this was life in Victorian times, envied so much by Thatcher.

Re: The Tories
 

Blair and Brown could be Snowball and Napolean,I nominate Prescott for post of Squealer.:hehetable

Re: The Tories
 

I presume then that Thatcher would have the role of the drunken incompetent farmer who they replaced?

Re: The Tories
 

Well if she a drunken incompetent, does say much for Blair or Brown:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

Actually,Jay, I think she was very competent. That's what made her so dangerous. If she hadn't known what she was doing then I could forgive to a certain extent, but she most certainly did. That's what I cannot forgive.

Re: The Tories
 

What dragging this country up by the bootlaces and putting it back on the straight and narrow, after years of misrule, and made sure it was the government of the day that run this country not the Trade Unions;)

Re: The Tories
 

Yeah, I remember several years of being dragged back to the straight and narrow, factories and other industry closed, profits from gas and oil used to keep folk down rather than use the cash to invest in the future.
Miners she said, lets take some bitchy revenge for what they did a few years before, let's waste what we have putting them and innocent bystanders in their place rather than a good future for all.

Re: The Tories
 

You mean making whole industries and communities redundant?
You mean ruling over the most devided Britain that modern times has seen?
Or was it the tax cuts to the rich paid for by taxing the poor more?
Was it the promotion of greed and selfishness on a scale not seen in over a hundred years?
Or maybe it was the erosion of workers rights, sacrificed to her love of all things Victorian?
Perhaps it was the record unemployment (how does that put the country back on the straight and narrow)?
Let me guess! It was the record interest rates (15%) that caused businesses to go to the wall and people to lose their homes (it was great for those with savings though wasn't it).
I suppose it was really the fact that she "brought the unions under control" (a favourite of Thatchers fans).
What has always baffled me is the idea amongst Tory supporters that the unions having any say in running the country is a bad thing. After all they look after the interests of workers. Are we to suppose that the only people to run a country are the people who look after the interests of the employers? If so who looks after the interests of the overwhelming majority of the population? Or do we not matter as long as the wheels of industry keep turning? Governments run countries, yes. But should we not be at least listening to those who represent ordinary people? The problem with governments of all colours but particularly the Tories is that they do not live in our world but they control it. How can they begin to understand the needs of the many when they live and breath and work with the few?
Creating wealth is not a bad thing and is to be encouraged, but when that wealth is spread amongst only a relative handful of people to the detriment of the vast majority we need to have a serious re-think about how we do things.

Re: The Tories
 

The point being made is that once the representatives of ordinary people notch up a couple of million followers paying £2-00 a week they seam to loose the plot.:mosher:::mad::mad:

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That does indeed sometimes happen. I'm not saying hand over the reigns of power to unelected union leaders, perish the thought. What I am saying is that at least listening to what they have to say is no bad thing. Going to war against those who represent millions in various industries is not good government.

Re: The Tories
 

Labour are far from great, But good government n Tory do not go in the same sentence.

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Agreed!!!:):):):):)

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I rarely post in political threads (and some of you wish I never did,but that's beside the point).
I can see most people getting angry about political decisions.

The reason I can feel 'detatched' about it is because I have learned that all politicians are obliged to conform to 'the party line' whether they like it or not. They are bribed, threatened and often blackmailed into conforming.

Even the leaders are told what to do by the unelected elite, who have amassed so much 'wealth' in fiat money that money has no meaning any more (not that it ever did in the first place). They just enjoy being puppet masters controlling world events.

So there is no point in getting stressed over politics unless you are willing to sacrifice yourself in a revolution and the anarchy that it would invoke. Even a revolution may not end a corrupt system - didn't work in Russia.

The population cull is underway and the weakest have been targeted - the sick, the disabled. the old and the unskilled. If you happen to be one of those 'useless eaters' (Rumsfeld quote) then you are likely to be shed by this uncaring society which has been socially engineered to consider you as parasites. You have a choice of how to die - starvation, hypothermia, inadequate medical care, and (eventually) assisted suicide.

So what can us weak ones do? - try the Ghandi way - peaceful non-cooperation, which means don't vote, don't take part in government surveys, and any other way of not cooperating which you may think of which doesn't risk your life and liberty. Did I say liberty? - that's a joke - we are more watched and controlled than any society ever was, and we accept it 'for our safety'. Safety? that's another joke - who/what made you feel unsafe - engineered terrorism, breakdown of society which has been caused by - you guessed it - your government.

So instead of arguing which party is least likely to screw you next time - withdraw giving consent to any of them.

Re: The Tories
 

Excellent post!!! I particularly like the bit about being watched for our own good. My view entirely. Governments all over the world and throughout history have been using the bogeyman in order to control their own people and weaken their rights. I think Orwells 1984 highlighted that.
All we have in this country (and probably less so in the US) is a choice between two bad options. Revolution doesn't work because, as Pirsig puts it in his Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance, unless we re-evaluate our whole way of thinking and doing things that which we overthrow will only be replaced by something very similar.
Again, nice, thoughtful post.

Re: The Tories
 

Labour and no government is very poignant, try googling successful Labour Governments in the UK, don't bother you won't find an example, cuz there's never been one

Re: The Tories
 

Actually, Jay, just tried it. Loads of good stuff came up. I advise all doubters to try it. Thanks for the advice. :hothothot

Re: The Tories
 

Just fer curiosity i just tried it.........Jaysay obviously has not.:D:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

Oh he has, Governments are judged on economic success, not odds and sods, the economy fails the government fails which Attlee, Wilson, Callaghan, Blair and Brown did ;)

Re: The Tories
 

and so did all the tory leaders, so that don't wash at all cos yeh keep telling us how successful the bitch wi dementia was.:rolleyes:

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To be honest if the tories had failed in economic management of this country we would be a real basket case now;)

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I think you'll find that the economy faired rather well under Blaire and rather less so under Major. It's not actually doing very well at the moment either. Last I heard we were in the middle of a double-dip recession with things getting worse whilst many other economies are slightly on the up. And don't start about the fault lying with the last Labour government, this lot have been in power too long for that now. As I have posted before, Thatcher was still blaming Labour for the countries ills four years in to her time in power.
It's what the Tories do. "We are still clearing up the mess left by the last government", should be the Tory motto.
It's never their fault is it?????
Even the international financial community says they're getting it wrong but will they listen? Of course not!!!

Re: The Tories
 

All well and good when your borrowing money hand over fist and leaving debts for others to clean up, and lets face it how much did Gordon sell all our gold for, to fritter away :rolleyes:

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Wrong. It's what the politicians do, Tory or Labour! ;)

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Not unlike the blessed Margaret selling off the potentially (as it has turned out) lucrative nationalised industries. I notice you're using the same "It's their fault not ours" argument that your party bang on about. I suppose you've just proved my point really.

Re: The Tories
 

Good point! You should be a politician.:)

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Ah but that don't hold when Jaysay uses it.:rolleyes::D

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They would never ever been lucrative in government hands especially a labour government and as for your fault not ours its usually right, Brown set out on a scorched earth policy when he realised he hadn't a snowball in hells chance of retaining power, remember the note left by Liam Byrne there's no money weave spent it all

Re: The Tories
 

Hoy get back in your cage you:D

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What immaculate timing. This prat's alleged comment about "knowing your place" says a lot about this government.

Cabinet minister Andrew Mitchell 'in foul-mouthed tirade at police' - Telegraph

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Such a pity,many ordinary folk don't twig what these people really are.

Re: The Tories
 

I hope your including ALL politicians in that statement Sir;)

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How do you know that? Perhaps if they were still in government hands we wouldn't be getting utility bills that would make Bill Gates flinch.

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Pure speculation, but seeing that one of the first things Labour did on seizing power was to sell off our gold reserves for a pittance I would have thought they would have sold everything off. After all they could have re nationalised the utilities industries?
They had a chance to get the rail network back, but settled for Network Rail, a company they don't own.:eek::eek:

Re: The Tories
 

I suppose you wanted someone, anyone to say, 'Ah well during 13 years of labour rule, the Police were abused x number of times a day', Well, hopefully though the Police thought themselves professionals, these oiks now know their place so far as Tories are concerned.
No matter what grovelling apology is given.

Re: The Tories
 

Well lets face it Labour had the head honcho at the met eating out of their hand didn't they, was called Mr Blair if I remember rightly;)

Re: The Tories
 

Ya your quite right BG they could have repealed loads of things introduce by the Tory Government but they didn't, they always leave the hard tasks to the Tories, the world and his wife have knew for years the the welfare state needed sorting out, yet Labour hadn't the bottle to tackle it

Re: The Tories
 

at least labour put more bobbies on the beat and invested money in equipment now their will be less bobbies on the beat with their pensions pillaged and billions of pounds going to private equity firms ie the private firms taking over

Re: The Tories
 

You really are not getting it are you, your precious Labour nearly bankrupted the country, remember the note thy left? We have spent all the money?
It will take years and years to sort out, but of course if it was Labour you would just say that after so many years of miss rule it will take more than one term to sort out.

Re: The Tories
 

and this goverment are doing better they are borrowing more than labour ever did BBC News - Andrew Mitchell row: Police leader attacks Cameron

Re: The Tories
 

Wish you dyed in the wool Tories would stop harping on about the 'there's nothing left, we've spent it all' note.....it was meant as a joke to the incoming minister, it's the kind of warped humour that I have, it obviously backfired because most tories are without humour, and much prefer to treat the police like sixth formers treat first years, and have nicknames like 'thrasher'...

Re: The Tories
 

the tories are bankrupting this country more than anybody can, biilions of pounds paid out to private equity ,hedge funds tory boys pockets:confused:all in the name ideology:eek:

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The only trouble was it wasn't a joke, just the government that left office came under that banned and not even a good joke at that

Re: The Tories
 

You could be Thatcher talking couldn't you? She kept saying the same thing years ago.
See my earlier post about "it's never our fault".
Let me ask a simple question: why is it that every time the Tories come to power after a period of Labour government they always start with the same battle cry of "we'll have to sort out this mess" and then start hammering the less well-off whilst giving hand-outs to those who don't need them?
Thatchers vacuous argument that the awards given to the rich would "trickle down" to the less fortunate was never true. It didn't happen and it never will because of sheer human greed.
The Labour party are far from perfect and you will never hear me say they are (I have posted as much on here) but I will never support a party who are so obviously contemptuous of the majority of ordinary people in this country. Their obvious favouritism toward their paymasters and old school tie buddies has nothing to do with getting the country out of a "mess" and everything to do with making the rich richer until they eventually lose power again.
As for Labour not re-nationalising I think you will find that Thatcher and her pals made that virtually impossible. Unless the government was prepared to pay millions in compensation to shareholders it would have to be a "re-nationalisation without compensation" which would, I think, be political suicide.
One of the things that made me a socialist (originally) was my basic inherent belief, however naive, in fairness. I am not and never will be "jealous" of anyone wealthy, they are welcome to the fruits of their labours. The only problem is how some people get that wealth. If it is gained by working hard and treating their workers with respect and decency and paying a good wage with good conditions then that is good. If it is gained from being talented and reaping the rewards of that talent, that is good. I don't even mind inherited wealth (providing it doesn't come with inherited privilege).
The difficulty is that too many of them gain money by deceit, by walking all over people (see Victorian post by me), by borderline (and sometimes downright illegal) legal means and by dealings (bankers?) which then pass down to ordinary people in the form of recession and bankrupt economies.
The problem is the Tories support all of this and then, when the going gets tough economically, they start looking at ways of fleecing the poor and taking no notice whatsoever of the billions wasted in not making the wealthy, including companies not just individuals, actually pay tax at all. Some millionaires pay less tax than you and I because of legal loopholes and off-shore banking.
I would sooner have an inept government than one that works so obviously against the people at the wrong end of the economic scale. Labour have often got things wrong but at least there is an element of fairness (however well hidden these days) in what they try to do.

Re: The Tories
 

Often got things wrong they never got anything right:mad:

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You're right Guiness, only the Tories would use a joke as political capital and expect people, other than other Tories, to take it seriously. You only have to look at the painted smiles to see the lack of humour. At least Prescott was honest and didn't try to look happy when he wasn't.

Re: The Tories
 

Oh come on Jay, did you really have to quote all of his post just to say that?
Just think of how much space you're taking up on the overworked servers?
:(

Re: The Tories
 

Good post, Jay. I see you have, as usual, dismantled my argument entirely in your usual well argued and eloquent manner. Well done.

Re: The Tories
 

Think of all the space that would be saved if he didn't post the crap that Mancie and Jockstrap have been posting since the start of this thread:(

Re: The Tories
 

I ain't wasting my time wade through crap that's been pedalled out for over two years, what you wrote has been repeated dozens of times before;) if you'd care to read it would save you even bothering repeating it again and again and again

Re: The Tories
 

big u-turn on its way ,but is the answer to give the banks more money and start building houses this goverment are clueless,and i see the tory policy of cutting immigration is working a treat:eek: not.as they give more billions to private equity firms to line there mates pockets.they are wasting more money than labour ever could Bounty hunters from private firms paid £40m to track down illegal immigrants | Mail Online capita = private equity firm hedge fund profiteering.so the goverment sacks off thousands of staff costing them double this ha ha you couldnt make it up.there pals are exempt from anything, just put down you are a business man and your in lol UK Border Agency | Exempt (EXM)

Re: The Tories
 

Houseboy, yes I am a capitalist and therefore right wing, unfortunately that means you and others on here believe that to be a blue through and through.
I watched the last Labour government act just like their predecessor. In some ways worse, the off the balance sheets PFI deals Gordon and Tony made with their new best friends the Bankers. Plunging our health service, schools etc into massive debts and creating a time bomb of debt for years to come.
Let's face it Gordon Brown in the first term, blew away £2 billion pounds by selling over half of our Gold Reserves when the market was at a all time low.
Very shrewd.
So are the current lot any better?
Who knows, we will only find out in years to come.
Personally I feel that all politicians should be taken outside and .......

Re: The Tories
 

2 billion pounds is chicken feed compared to the billions of pounds this goverment has wasted in 3 years just for ideology.public spending down private spending up.how many private firms have benefited from prisons,welfare and other public services.how many of these firms are hedge fund funded and do it on the cheap just for a dividend for their shareholders .

Re: The Tories
 

whether labour or tory this kind of public service outsourcing is wrong. how many billions has it cost the country just look at the network rail debacle which saw the shareholder give billions so they could stay in profit.

Re: The Tories
 

Do you reckon anybody actually bothers to read the garbled, gibbering, punctuation-free drivel you continually inflict on this forum?

Re: The Tories
 

C'mon, I have tried and failed to have a meaningful discussion with you. I have said all I have to say on this.

Re: The Tories
 

why because you have lost the debate.private firms dont give the best value for money to the public purse in fact it has cost the country billions just for ideology. name one public service that has benefited from out sourcing i.e. saved money and put money back into the infrastructure of the public service.

Re: The Tories
 

:p lol

Re: The Tories
 

Well after watching Panorama tonight the tories have really helped the schools,:rolleyes: Probably done more harm in 2 yrs than Labour did in 13.:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

That was terrible - but weren't the seeds sown in Labour years?

Regardless the schools should be protected from those crooks. Their scams were similar to what criminals used to do in the 60's - you set up a bogus company, build up a credit rating until you can get goods on HP and then go bankrupt and keep the money from selling the goods. That computer scam was very similar.

Re: The Tories
 

Yup ...especially as he doesn't seem to have read the post.:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

Why read again the diatribe spouted on here time after time by Jockstrap and is pal down London;)

Re: The Tories
 

The problem is, Jay, it does need repeating over and over again until people realise just how undemocratic, arrogant and downright slavish in their attitude to the wealthy and privileged they are.
Even on TV last night they were yet again being criticised for being arrogant and out of touch with reality.
It's not just me saying these things, Jay. They were given a chance at the last election and, with the help of the spineless Lib-Dems, are leading us to God knows where. But it ain't out of recession, that's for sure.

Re: The Tories
 

Don't disagree with your last point at all (about politicians, etc.).
The thing is you and I are probably the opposite sides of the same coin. You are right wing without necessarilly being a Tory (if I read you right) and I am left wing whilst being quite a way from being a Labour supporter just now.
Capitalism is fine if it is kept under some sort of control (that is where the "mixed economy" (prior Thatcher) came into it's own. But left unfettered it descends into what even some Tories in the past have described as the unacceptable face of capitalism.
Unfortunately I fear that that is what modern Toryism has become.

Re: The Tories
 

Your Problem is just the same of the likes of C'Mon, Mancie and company, your all in denial, no doubt if you'd have been a member during Labours years in Government you wouldn't have said a dickybird either about their abysmal management of the countries finances, the first post C'mon made on politics was after May 2010 prior to that his only interests were the Dog Stabbers of Accrington, and all you've don't is kept referring back to Thatcher, and you blame me for keep harping on about the past Labour administration. It's rather strange that during Labour's office they did not repeal one legislation brought in by the previous government, why if they opposed them so much, could only mean they endorsed them.

Re: The Tories
 

The problem is that modern Toryism (which is the main problem) started with Thatcher and it is very difficult to make a critique of it without reference to her. In that sense she looms large over the whole political scene even to this day.
As for being in denial, how wrong can you be? You have said yourself that you can't be bothered to read my "diatribe". That means that you have missed the numerous occasions that I have said that I am definitely not happy with the Labour party and will never argue in their favour if I believe them to be wrong.
The Labour party, much to my irritation, didn't repeal any of the major things done by Thatcher and since but if you look at political history in this country you will find that that rarely happens on either side. Case in point: why have the Tories never done away with the NHS and state schooling despite their obvious idealogical hatred of both?

Re: The Tories
 

Just a quick point on my last post. I said the Tories have never done away with the NHS and state schooling, which is true in the context of my argument, but they certainly are trying to dismantle them, which I suppose emphasises my point about their hatred of them. To do away with them up front would be political suicide of course.

Re: The Tories
 

So lets see then your offered a job and one of the perks is private health insurance, I presume you'd turn down that part of the package on principal then:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

Actually yes, and I have. The problem with private medicine is it is extremely limited as to what it can offer. If any major things need doing they shunt them off to NHS hospitals and push there patients in front of NHS patients, which of course, morally, should never happen. If we are going to have private medicine in this country then okay, I don't have a problem with that. But the private medical companies should be made to invest more of their profits into making there own hospitals able to cope with all problems. Never, in my opinion, should the two co-exist. The only reason they do use NHS hospitals is quite simply because they are better. Private hospitals are okay if you have a relatively minor problem and want to stay in a hotel.
I have in the past accepted private dental care because it was the only thing available at that time (thanks to the Tories) and it meant I didn't have to pay. I can now say that I am now in the care of an NHS dentist, and very good he is to.

Re: The Tories
 

offerd a job, the tories are trying their best to make people never to work again.have the tories gave up on their ideology of people owning their own home :eek: as they try and dismantle every permanent job by destroying workers rights and creating an atmosphere of fear.everything that has been great about britain is being destroyed by the enemy of britain within.

Re: The Tories
 

Where do you work these days C'mon:confused:

Re: The Tories
 

What an absolute pile of gobmanure!
The Tory's want me to find a job, the system in place insists that I look for and find a job as soon as possible, that I agree with.
What I don't agree with is being forced to accept an insecure, temporary, underpaid job just to improve the unemployment figures, because I'll only end up back on the dole when the employer has finished using me.
:(

Re: The Tories
 

If you can't stand the Tories, if you can't trust Labour, if you believe that the Lib-Dems are a joke, if you can't stomach the UKIP, why not vote for something completely different?

Anderson Cooper endorses Tuxedo Stan for mayor | CTV Atlantic News

I'm sure a candidate like Stan would get Tealeaf's vote:rolleyes::D

Re: The Tories
 

We've already got Cats in power haven't we ? ......................... Oh silly me, it's not cats, it's Pussies .................... the English language & it's nuances eh ?

And while I think on "Call me Dave" in interview on the radio today while talking about foreign aid mentioned something about not cutting it as he'd made a "promise". Really ? Funny thing is, he seems a bit hazy about other promises he's made.

Two faced, lying, hypocrite ! :mad:

Re: The Tories
 

tongue in cheek that less lol, jaysay cant say where i work im sworn to secrecy;)

Re: The Tories
 

Ya so your on the dole then:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

im lucky, i havent ever been on the dole;)

Re: The Tories
 

"Nuances eh":alright: Looks like we might have to make you an honorary Canadian:D In no time, we'll have you rooting for the Leafs and drinking Molson Canadian ... not a bad brew, by the way.

Re: The Tories
 

Would be rather chuffed to be an honorary Canadian, just as long as I don't have to do the French bit. :D And I do believe I supped a Molson or two while adventuring in the "Hat". :)

Re: The Tories
 

I see Cameron embarrassed himself in the US last night on the late show. David Letterman asked him a few "British History" questions and he struggled. How can anyone not know that Magna Carta means Great Charter? I thought we all learned that at school? He's a politician for Gods sake. He didn't know the populations of the individual UK countries either. And these were just two that the privately educated buffoon couldn't answer. One of the presenters on the news this morning said maybe he should take a citizenship test. Sounds like a good idea.
Anyone remember the Monty Python spoof show Upper Class Twit of the Year?

Re: The Tories
 

I've run into a few rather delectable French bits in my travels to la belle Province:eek::D:D

Re: The Tories
 

Loved that Python skit:D If Cameron did know about the Magna Carta, he would probably dismiss it as communist propaganda.

Re: The Tories
 

First person has been sentenced to prison for squatting under the new anti-squatting laws brought in by the Tories...

London squatter first to be jailed - London - News - Evening Standard

It is often foreign criminal gangs who have been targetting private houses for squatting then charging immigrants to stay in them - this has ruined squatting for genuine homeless people.

What next under the Tories - return of the workhouse? :rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

Not a very good argument against the Tory scum IMHO, if someone was illegally squatting in a house i owned, i would be delighted n bet most people would.:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

Cashy An upstanding person such as yourself must have come across the phrase 'Property is Theft'?

Well if it is the squatters are handling stolen goods so, perhaps they should be prosecuted even harsher than they at last are being?
:)

Re: The Tories
 

Yet more stupidity

Re: The Tories
 

Genuine homeless people ? Not really a goer is it Kes ? I'm pretty sure you'd be up in arms & demanding that plod do something about it if it was a property of yours

Squatter - a person who settles on land or occupies property without title, right, or payment of rent. (from dictionary.com )

Re: The Tories
 

Be more sympathetic Dave he might be homeless now:D

Re: The Tories
 

I was under the impression that David Blunkett (remember him?) Abolished it along with the other Civil Liberties we lost all in the name of 'terrorism'

Copied from Wikipedia, (sorry about that)

• Human Rights Act 1998, for the first time this allowed direct appeal in British courts to be made on the basis of the European Convention on Human Rights. It preserves Parliamentary sovereignty, because courts may not strike down democratically decided laws, they can only issue a "declaration of incompatibility" (s.4). Judges, when interpreting legislation, may also presume that Parliament intended not to derogate from Convention rights (s.3). It is a precondition of a claim to the Strasbourg court that a claimant has exhausted the domestic legal system's avenues for appeal. The main reason for incorporation, and justification from advocates and the Government was to save time and cost. Other countries, such as Germany and France have their own standards, but all follow and stay conformity with the ECHR. Similarly, the ECHR is drawn from the traditions of every member state, and acts as a method for maintaining minimum standards on which there is general consensus. Despite its controversy, this may be viewed as a uniquely British measure, especially given the fact that the Convention was drafted under the direction of the British government.

• Terrorism Act 2000, extended the limit to 7 days detention without charge for terrorist suspects. It also allows terrorist organisations to be banned. Sixty groups have to date been outlawed. The Act also introduced a broad definition of "terrorism" under s.1. The stop and search powers in the Act were used to search protesters at an arms trade fair in Canary Wharf, including a Ph.D. student and a journalist who took legal action as a result. The police action was held to be lawful in R (Gillan) v Commissioner for the Metropolitan Police [2006] UKHL 12.
• Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, allows the government full surveillance powers of all kinds of communication. The current rate is 30 warrants being issued a week. In the 15 months from July 2005 to October 2006, 2407 warrants were issued.
• Civil Contingencies Act 2004, allows the government, for an "emergency", to deploy armed forces anywhere in the country during peace time (cf. Bill of Rights 1689). It also allows property to be sequestrated, for an "emergency" with or without compensation anywhere (cf. Prot. 1, Art.1 ECHR).
• Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005, created an offence of inciting religious hatred, an advanced notification scheme for protests up to 1 kilometre from Parliament. cf Blum v Director for Public Prosecutions.

• Anti-Terrorism Crime and Security Act 2001, in response to the destruction of the NYC World Trade Center on 9/11, the government passed legislation allowing indefinite detention without trial for non-British nationals suspected of committing terrorist offences, but without enough evidence for an actual trial (cf. Magna Carta, Habeas Corpus Act 1679). When passing Acts of Parliament, under the HRA 1998 the Minister has to make a "statement of compatibility" with the Convention. What they did was to send notice of derogation from the right to a fair trial, Art.6 ECHR. Art.15 ECHR is the derogation provision, which says "In time of war or other public emergency threatening the life of the nation" a member can derogate "to the extent strictly required by the exigencies of the situation". The minister then declared when passing the 2001 Act that it was (with the derogation sent) compatible with the HRA 1998.

• Criminal Justice Act 2003, abrogated double jeopardy in cases with "new and compelling evidence".

• A and Others v Secretary of State for the Home Department [2004] UKHL 17, the majority of the House of Lords decided that the detention without trial under the ATCSA 2001 was discriminatory to non-British nationals, and therefore incompatible under Art.14 ECHR. A declaration of incompatibility was issued under s.4 HRA 1998. Lord Hoffmann was the only dissenting judge to hold that the whole detention without trial idea was incompatible with the right to a trial under Art.6, and that the derogation was unacceptable, because there was no "threat to the life of the nation". He argued strongly that it would be wrong to suggest, with the majority's view that discrimination was the problem, that the government should be allowed to lock up all Britons alike.

• Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005, the government in response to A's case passed this allows the Home Secretary to impose control orders on any British citizen. Anybody suspected of terrorist related activities by the Home Secretary, but without any kind of trial, can be electronically tagged, monitored, be restricted from making phone calls, using the internet, be banned from certain kinds of work, can be restricted from going certain places, have one's passport revoked and be under a duty to report to the police. The control order system was held disproportionate in Secretary of State for the Home Department v JJ [2007] UKHL 45. The system was declared incompatible, because there was no derogation. However Lord Brown stated that if a suspect was left with eight hours' liberty a day, then it would have been acceptable.

• Terrorism Act 2006, following the bombings in London on the 7th of July, this legislation allows for people suspected of terrorist offences to be detained without charge for up to 28 days. The Criminal Justice Act 2003 had extended the time to 14 days. The government had initially proposed a limit of 90 days, saying this was on the recommendation of the police, and citing support from opinion polls. Opposition among MPs saw the first defeat for the Blair government; the Conservative amendment of 28 days detention without charge being accepted. The act also created a new offence of "glorifying terrorism".

• Austin v Metropolitan Police Commissioner [2007] EWCA Civ 989, Court of Appeal rejects a charge of false imprisonment and an Art.5 ECHR claim for police holding May Day protestors in Oxford Circus in 2001.

• Counter-Terrorism Bill 2008 sought to extend the number of days detention without charge to 42 days and to allow the Home Secretary to require an inquest to be established without a jury in secret if they deems it to be in the public interest, the interest of an overseas treaty partner or in the interest of national security. David Davis MP, a Conservative politician and Shadow Home Secretary at the time, resigned his parliamentary seat in June 2008 in protest over the proposed extension to detention with charge. His resignation forced a by-election, which he contested and won on a civil liberties platform. Neither Labour nor the Liberal Democrats stood a candidate.

Re: The Tories
 

Re: The Tories
 

well well heres one that really takes the biscuit.this tory lot are unbelievable.has there been another any mp with two names rather been two faced:confused::confused: Grant Shapps denies 'double life' accusations despite business alter ego - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

Re: The Tories
 

Well its only like you your alter ego is Cmonstanley:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

What makes me sick to the stomach is listening to working class people lining up with the Tories or the Labour party to slag each other off, wake up for God's sake both promote Capitalism which will never benefit anyone other than the rich.