Re: The Tories
 

There are some very rich people in the Labour Party too Gordon, in fact if I remember rightly the wealthiest MP in parliament is a Labour MP:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

The majority of the MP's in Parliament come from what could be considered 'privileged' backgrounds...few of them could be considered working class.
They have no concept of the feelings/concerns/issues of the people they are supposed to be reperesenting...well, it is either that or they have a complete disregard for their electorate.

Re: The Tories
 

I'm not Labour, I'm not Tory, I'm not Lib Dem.....I couldn't care a hoot about the ideologies of the political parties, and anyway if you look at them closely there isn't room for a sheet of Bronco between any of them.
I just want a government with a leader who can lead.....who listens to the concerns of the people, and more importantly does what he /she says they will.

Re: The Tories
 

Ain't going to happen Margaret any time soon, if ever, that's why people don't vote anymore, it doesn't do what it says on the tin;)

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It's easy saying things are wrong but not so easy when you have to decide how to fix them.

As for MP's pay, I think they are underpaid. Pay peanuts get monkeys springs to mind. You might not think what they are paid is peanuts but compared to other sectors it is

Re: The Tories
 

He is just trying to keep those millionaires on his side because he needs them to keep their business in the UK and not take it abroad.

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There are Chief executives in council offices get more than the Prime Minister gets, that's how stupid it is

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Of course he does- there's a few top paying directors jobs there.

Example- how can you trust a government that puts a highly paid director of a wind energy company in charge of the committee deciding our policy on green energy?

It's just barefaced cheek. I can see why they don't know how the bulk of us live and think, they come from a different world. But when they show they don't care either- that's too much.

Re: The Tories
 

Then he's wasting his time ... the millionaire businessmen, given the opportunity to increase their income and their portfolios, will leave anyway. The government could scrap the minimum wage, re-introduce child labour ... slavery even; but if they can make a few extra bucks by moving offshore, the businessmen will pull up stakes and move. Instead of begging them to stay, penalize them if they leave. Ooops ... I forgot, you guys are in the EU.:rolleyes: What a silly bunt I am:D

Here followeth a little wander.;) Heard on the news today that the unemployment rate in Germany is less than 6% ... and in many other EU countries it's through the roof ... youth unemployment in Sapin is over 50%.:eek: Seems like things are a little out of whack in the good ol' EU:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

Gated community/Sheltered accommodation (it's good enough for our pensioners). There is no need for them to have a house, accommodation blocks (good enough for the military/nursing staff & police in training.) this way they've a roof over their head, they may not like it but the basic human need for shelter is met.

Communal messing/canteen with set meal times & a varied menu to cater for various dietary requirements, turn up & eat or go hungry. This also forms a routine so people get back into getting up & out of their pits & getting to bed at a reasonable time.

Through the day work parties are allocated objectives, some will deal with catering, some with maintenance, others education, life skills, mentors/teachers should come from the people within the complex & only limited recourse to outside assets, thereby bringing about self sufficiency & the learning of skills amongst those involved.

No one should be exempted & all should be encouraged to move round the various positions to broaden the individuals knowledge & skill base. Admittedly somewhat regimented & authoritarian but hopefully this will give them the impetus to improve themselves & the determination to get away but with a better set of rounded out qualities/skills.

That should be enough to be getting on with.

Re: The Tories
 

This reminds me of the gay marriage debate ... we don't need definitions, 'cause, while we will all differ in some points, we all have a fair idea what things means Just like we all have a fair idea of what it means to be "British" or "Canadian" even (unarmed Americans with health care;)) If you are sitting on the sloping deck of "Titanic" you don't waste your time trying to define "iceberg"; you look for a goddam lifeboat.

Re: The Tories
 

You think that their pay is peanuts...well, it might be, but whe you look at all the perks they get, they aren't doing so badly at all...and if you tell me that if we paid them better they would not embezzle the tax payer out of expenses.......I would need a good size pinch of salt to swallow that.
Not only that, many of them have other jobs as well......how come they have the time. I was so weary after my work...I knew I had earned my pay.

Re: The Tories
 

Steady on Din G.

'Arbeit macht frei'?

Re: The Tories
 

Mp's pay is £65,738 if the mp has only one term in office (5 years) if you take into consideration his/her severance package his/her salary is in fact £77,738.The severance package is generally 50% of his/her yearly salary after 5 years service.Then of course there are the expenses to consider which it seems are incalculable even if you put receipts in for everything including the odd mars bar:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

Some may see it so, but extreme situations require extreme actions. On top of that it' just basically a civilian version of how the military used to be, self sufficient & with their own tradesmen & skill sets.

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The low pay must be why we have to drag the buggers in there kicking and screaming,eh Margaret.Bet theres not many of them weary after a shift.:(

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I think one thing about MPs pay is the fact that you don't actually need any formal qualifications to do the job - just have a good gob on you and convince enough idiots to vote for you. They are paid enough.

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Of course you need definitions. If you are going to make a law where only British people in need get paid you have to define what that means. You need to define "British" and "in need".

Re: The Tories
 

You say they are paid enough - are you comparing that to what you are paid?

If you think of the Country as a big company which in effect it is then you need the best business minds to run it. We don't appear to have them and we are in a mess.

Re: The Tories
 

Of course, it's the same one you've ignored all the time.

Do not blame the innocent and vulnerable claimants along with the guilty scroungers just because this is the easiest method to make it look like you are doing something.
Using propaganda to blame all the Countries hardships on this group of people isn't fair nor is it useful.
There are investigators to find the thieves without punishing the legitimate Citizens.

Re: The Tories
 

Some would argue the best business minds are in the banks.:rolleyes: And we all know how those big companys are run. yer naivety amazes me Neil.

Re: The Tories
 

Ok. .... Off you go. Define "British" ... Get back to me when you come up with a definition which we can all agree on. Excuse me if I don't hold my breath while you are doing this.:rolleyes: This "define your terms" bs is an excuse for doing nothing while Rome (or your city of choice) burns. And while you are Gradgrinding your way towards a definition, the rest of the world will quite happily and inefficiently work towards the solving of problems ... That's how, in case you haven't noticed, things are handled on this planet.

The tories, by the way, have already "defined" what is wrong with the economy, and have come up with solutions based on that definition.

Re: The Tories
 

The best business minds are not in banks. Bankers are basically professional gamblers.

Great business minds are people like Richard Branson

Re: The Tories
 

It was not me that said pay British people which was why I asked for his definition. It sounded a bit racist to me but I don't think he meant it to be.

Re: The Tories
 

Are the british a race - or a nation?
It seems to me that we bend over backwards to accommodate the needs and wishes of other nations, but are reticent about looking out for our own people.

Whoever comes to these shores(it seems) gets looked after. Try going to any other country and expecting the same treatment. I think you would be left to fend for yourself...and many countries would just tell you to 'something off'.......you just wouldn't get past immigration control.

Re: The Tories
 

Not racist at all Neil, MargaretP sums it up fer me perfectly. Having lived abroad i know how foreigners have to fit in n rightfully so, it never bothered us in the slightest, is it so wrong to want the same treatment here?:confused:

Re: The Tories
 

Neil, let's just slot our politicians in place.

Many of them, particularly the top people in the main three parties, come from very rich families, went to expensive private(public?) schools, into the top universities then straight into politics.

They no nothing else but the political world. They couldn't run a bank, a company, not even a drinking session in a brewery. They know nothing of science, engineering or business.

The only reason they get highly paid positions on the boards of companies is because they have contacts, access to the seat of power, influence.

They are paid the rate for the job- a professional politician, not much use in any other profession .

You want the best business minds to run the country? I agree, a country needs to be a profitable company in effect. The massive salaries would be worth while.

But will these people be let into the seats of power? Like hell they will.Do you think for a minute the professional politicians would let anyone else near that power, that cushy number? Never.

Digby Jones and one or two others were brought in to advise and suggest policy. They didn't last long, they were ignored, slighted and had it made clear by both the politicians who hired them and the civil servants they were supposed to help that they were wasting their time. Digby Jones actually said that. Even Frank Field, a rare man in politics, was asked to come up with good ideas for the welfare state, did it and then was totally ignored. His suggestions were sound but politically uacceptable.

For the job our politicians of all parties have done over the last 20 years- we haven't under paid them, we shouldn't have paid them at all! Payment by results.

If you want the best business minds running the country,men of top ability, you need to sweep the Houses of Parliament clean and start again.

It won't happen.

Re: The Tories
 

Spot on Gordon.
You have hit the nail on the head. Frank Field has been trying to get governments to look at welfare spending, and the effectiveness of the use of this money for many years(more than a decade) and he has been ignored.

No-one wants to be seen as 'nasty' for being more realistic in the distribution of welfare.
But the honest truth is that welfare is costing us more year on year - because the cost of living goes up and benefits do too....also there are more older people.
To pay for benefits, we have to have young people in work and contributing both taxes and national insurance.

If a child grows up seeing no-one in the household work, but yet everything they need is provided...then do you think they will choose to go out to work?

It is vital to instill a work ethic in the young people growing up.......and now someone is going to say 'what's the use of that when there are no jobs?'
Well, there are jobs out there.....it may not be a job that you would choose to do, but the grim reality of life is that sometimes we have to do a job...any job, just to get work experience.
I worked at things I didn't like doing.....a weaving shed, a shop, an engineering works...these were not the jobs I wanted to do...but I needed to do them, to feed and clothe myself and put a roof over my head.
I certainly didn't want the state to keep me......I worked to get what I needed and eventually was able to train for a profession.
People have to take responsibility for themselves......not think that the state will provide for them.

I have said it before and I say it again. Welfare should be a helping hand, not a way of life...or a career choice.

Re: The Tories
 

I still can't work out why a million Poles and other East Europeans could flood into the UK and get jobs when we had 2.5 million who couldn't get jobs!

I lie- the answer is simple.

Re: The Tories
 

It is simple, but some are too dense to go figure, Express Gifts is a perfect example.

Re: The Tories
 

They live, and send money back home......draw(generous) benefits for children in Poland....and this benefits not our economy, but theirs.

Re: The Tories
 

The best business minds would not dream of entering the current x-factor type popularity contest that passes for politics, regardless of how much you paid them. They are already in control of the country, lobbying, cajoling and in some cases slipping backhanders under the guise of free hotel stays, dinners, holidays etc.. to the muppets who think they run the country.

Cases given as evidence, tax relief for the rich, companies allowed to flaunt tax law and watering down levenson.

Re: The Tories
 

the eu usa trade treaty to be signed in 2 months will mean you can buy healthcare from the us of a read into that.bye bye nhs.

Re: The Tories
 

Certainly with you on this one Cashy - like you I have lived abroad and I have also worked in foreign climes for over 20 years - you either learn the language or pay for an interpreter - no multi-languge forms, and you don't get any of the social services/benefits that immigrants qualify for when they come here.

Re: The Tories
 

I would have thought that if you are rich enough already, you could buy healthcare from anywhere in the World.

Re: The Tories
 

These investigations are always ongoing year in year out, the fact that over 8,000 people decided to throw the towel in and stop claiming when it was announced speaks volumes to just how many cheats are out there.

Re: The Tories
 

You deserve some green for that Margaret, but it won't let me, I have yet to understand why we need to send aid to India when they have their own space program, or most countries in that neck of the woods, most of um are here in Britain already, I've always said that to claim benefits people should first put into the pot for at least 5 years before they get anything at all, the same with health care too, you go to most countries without insurance and they ask for you credit card, why not here.

Re: The Tories
 

Not sure whether I've mentioned this before but this was going on in the sixties Margaret, I worked with a German Brickie when I was an happyrentice he had two kinds in Germany who he claimed for, but they never got the money, we were a soft touch even in those days

Re: The Tories
 

Labour have been flogging that dead horse for over 30 years now give it a rest.

Re: The Tories
 

Spot on Barrie, Joan's son lives in Spain these bought two house in the last 10 years, he had to pay for people to interpret for him, he now speaks very fluent Spanish, in fact living where he does its the only language he speaks now, unless somebody from home comes over

Re: The Tories
 

I would think any real cheats, are still getting away with it, that figure of 8,000 that you bandy about could be because of 8,000 different reasons and not because they were cheats. I can't prove it one way or the other and neither can you, but I won't agree that a system that picks on the genuinely needy at the same time as supposedly targeting the cheats is the right way to go.

Nor do I think someone that has needed to be kept on benefits can be so selfish as to say that it's wrong to provide the same security they got to others that may be equally or even more needy.

What is it they say about evil triumphing when good men do nothing?

Well, there are a great many 'good' men willing to sacrifice others that deserve the same as they got.

Not to worry though, once a society stops looking after it's weak and hinting that they are the cause of the not so weak, having problems, it's not long before the powers extend the definitions of those they consider weak and useless.

Perhaps coming to a situation like yours at just the stroke of a pen?

Re: The Tories
 

now its official Right-wingers are less intelligent than left wingers, says controversial study - and conservative politics can lead people to be racist | Mail Online :eek::p:D a bit of truth in there.

Re: The Tories
 

I ask again how would you suggest we stop this benefit fraud, you only say what shouldn't be done, exactly what's been going on for years and allowed to escalate out of all proportions.

Re: The Tories
 

The Daily Mail you've got a cheek

Re: The Tories
 

ha ha :D:D

Re: The Tories
 

Blah de, blah de, blah, and the last sentence of the report ?

'Clearly, however, all socially conservative people are not prejudiced, and all prejudiced persons are not conservative.'

;) Now go away & find something else to cut & paste. :)

Re: The Tories
 

If left wingers were more intelligent surely they'd have become right wingers?

Re: The Tories
 

I ask how someone that's been on benefits for twenty years can deny that same care to anyone in a similar position, yet you still do.

There are investigators that investigate there should be no need to target all on benefit as if it's them that caused your problems, these folk are like you, powerless others made the decisions of how the system was set up.
If the system needs changing then it should be done humanely not by blaming all that are on benefits.

Re: The Tories
 

I give up forget it you obvious think the status quo is fine carry on I won't be around long enough to bother about it

Re: The Tories
 

You won't give up, you will wait a few days then start all over again, yet you will still be blaming the wrong people.

Re: The Tories
 

In case you didn't notice, the status quo changed a couple of days ago .... it's now a little leaner, and a helluva lot meaner.

Re: The Tories
 

I've been thinking that if the tories want to raise the big bucks, in order to eliminate the deficit and pay down the debt, it might be a good idea to go after those who are avoiding tax. A novel idea, I know. And I suspect that not too many of the avoiders will define themselves as socialists:rolleyes:

By the way, I noticed this in the "Guardian" (sorry Jaysay, I only look at the "Mail" for the pics;)):

Barclays tax avoidance division generated £1bn a year ? Salz review | Business | guardian.co.uk

And this one made the main headline:

Identities of the rich who hide cash offshore | UK news | The Guardian

The sh .... oops ... feces is already hitting the swiftly spinning object over here:

Senator's husband put $1.7M in offshore tax havens - Canada - CBC News


Ah well, enough links ... I have more Bomber in the fridge:D

Re: The Tories
 

Ah but they turn a blind eye to these, much better to go after lazy scroungers.:rolleyes: n many knobs agree.

Re: The Tories
 

Cashy....many of the tax avoidance schemes are legal.......and though I do not agree with it, you cannot blame firms who rely on these schemes to boost their profits.
After all businesses are in the game to make money. So the answer is simple...close the schemes down, close the loopholes that allow these companies to use them.

It is the tax system(I know Eric won't like me using that term) that is at fault for allowing the loopholes to remain.
Likewise, the benefits system allows people to get away with cheating....so tackle the problem and make those who are claiming benefits, to which they are not entitled, pay every penny back.

If this was done then there would be more in the pot for those who need the support of benefits.

It isn't rocket science....is it?

Re: The Tories
 

Nah it aint rocket science, these firms control the top politicians,by funding the parties, so therefore they do control the tax system. so these loopholes will remain always.

Re: The Tories
 

I'm not blaming the wrong people its you who's placating the people who are thieving from the tax payer, end of

Re: The Tories
 

Two cases Margaret one legal one illegal, I don't remember the previous government, even though they knew about these loopholes, doing anything at all to close them, nor did they do anything to weed out benefit cheats either

Re: The Tories
 

I agree we make it to easy for people to come here and take from the system without giving.

What is not so easy and you didn't manage it, is to come up with a set of rules for giving benefits to people that works. The government are saying 9 out of 10 will be better off after the changes (not that I believe them). All we hear about is the other 1 in 10.

Re: The Tories
 

ids and the tories stooping so low attacking ,discrediting a hard working market stall worker just because he asked him a question.now the tories are claiming the bbc is biased .Tory MP complains to the BBC about market trader who challenged IDS on benefits - Telegraph WARNING WARNING usual tory bias in this story.

Re: The Tories
 

Your a bit late, it was in the papers a few days ago

Re: The Tories
 

Oh come on C'mon the BBC have always been further to the left than Lenin, its a standing joke "as impartial as a Question Time audience"

Re: The Tories
 

Only this morning the headlines on one of the papers was about NHS tourist, coming here getting treat and still being in a wheelchair when they go home on the plane, this was raised by surgeons who know we are being ripped off:mad:

Re: The Tories
 

chris patten is in there pulling the strings.;)

Re: The Tories
 

Of course this is bad, but no-one raises ALL the genuine people that are removed from benefits to make the figures look good, n all the fools jump on things like this.:rolleyes: Sensationalist press the dummys fall fer it every time.

Re: The Tories
 

Just like labours place men :rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

So there again its inconsequential what can we do:confused:try going to the good old US of A and go straight to the hospital, the first thing they'll ask you is your credit card number;)

Re: The Tories
 

Inconsequential to you maybe, not to the poor sods who have been stuffed, :rolleyes: Whats the U.S.A. to do wi out? apart from to shift the spotlight, always been tort tactics that un.:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

Just pointing out that this country is the easiest touch in the world and nobody wants to do anything about it

Re: The Tories
 

That is where the NHS get it wrong........they don't take the credit card details of anyone who is thought to be liable to pay......by the time they are found liable for a whacking bill, they have had it away on their toes.....and it costs more to chase the debt that is profitable.
Or maybe things have changed in the last ten years?

Re: The Tories
 

I think John was trying to draw an analogy to what happens in the USA to stop people taking advantage of health facilities, without paying, Cashy.

Re: The Tories
 

I think so as well, But Tories are fer baiting.:D

Re: The Tories
 

Ah....Cashy yer a wicked fella :D

Re: The Tories
 

This Mr Bennett is a lesson to us all! Osbourne should have a chat to him.
Income- £452. This includes £432 from the state,£20 from his stall.
Outgoings-£590. Before food etc.,

That's a deficit of £138 a month. With this £138 he is short of he plays poker and places the odd bet. Perhaps a man who can manage money that well can afford the odd drink as well.

So if he can manage on -£34.5/week why is he asking if IDS could manage on +£53 a week- that should be easy.

Bennett for Chancellor!

Re: The Tories
 

Wrong again ... but that's not unusual for a tory .... If you are in the US as a visitor and you have, say, a heart attack you will be taken to a hospital and treated. The money thing will be sorted out later. If you are sane, you will have purchased health insurance for your trip. If you didn't, they will send you a bill. Of course, by this time you are back in Blighty thumbing your nose at the bill ... the hospital would probably write it off, or make a deal for a nominal charge. If you get a job in the States, more than likely one of the benefits of the job would be health insurance.

By the way, if you are so down on the US health care system, why are you supporting a party that wants to use it as a model for health care in Britain:confused:

Re: The Tories
 

Hon, you go ahead and use any term you want. I could never get annoyed at you for that, as you are one of the sanest and most sensible people on here.

I know that tax loopholes are legal ... but so was war profiteering in WWl ... but they are wrong, immoral, and they damn welll stink. One thing that I treasure about my Lancashire heritage is that I come from a place and a time (I know, I'm an old fart:theband:) where folks knew right from wrong, whatever the legal niceities. And what the tories are doing is wrong ... it sucks major league.

Re: The Tories
 

true in quite a few cases infact there are reports that they even get child benefit for kids that dont exist.Thier word that tehy had kids was enough.

come on cashy refusing to work at express gifts isnt about lazyness its about not been willing to put up with the nazi arseholes that run the place

Re: The Tories
 

What yeh on about?:confused: I aint on about refusing, on about lads who worked yon fer years pre xmas, n one year a few years back were told sorry were starting Poles this year, Twas the only job these lads could get, i know one was me nephew.

Re: The Tories
 

Yes, they are immoral,and it is profiteering....but all it takes is government intervention to stop them being used...but no government.....Labour, Tory or anything else has stepped in to do this(that is immoral too - to see something that is blatantly wrong, discriminates against the majority of society, yet do nothing to end this travesty)...and until they do, the nets that catch the little guys will let the big guys break through.

The big corporations are greedy, and do not want to pay their share...if they did pay their share - again it would benefit those who need the helping hand.

I suppose it shows that I am from the same BOB(Batty Old Bird) Lancashire background, with a strong sense of what is right and what isn't.

Re: The Tories
 

Hoy you leave my mate cashy alone,this is all about :tongueout at one another:D:D:D oh by the way I agree with you Margaret:D

Re: The Tories
 

From what I've read on here about Express Gifts the company and its management should have been closed down when slavery was abolished.

But you are left with the question- why did they not re-employ a team of lads they knew and bring in Poles?

Yes, maybe the Poles would work for less but again maybe they thought the Poles would work harder, be more reliable. We don't know.

After mentioning Frank Fields yesterday I spent some time reading up on him. One of his comments was that of the 400,000 new jobs created in the first year of the ConDems, 320,000 went to immigrents. 87% !
On average in the final Labour years 80% of all new jobs went to immigrants.

The many companies that employed 400,000 people can't have all been like Express Gifts. They can't all have been lousy employers offering lousy jobs.

What do they see wrong with our huge pool of available labour? Why favour immigrants? Or did they not have much choice? It can't just be pay levels.

We have to ask why our unemployed don't get all or most of these jobs.

Are they brought up with bad attitude? Are they badly educated by a failing system? Has the moral fibre of this country rotted away? Is our welfare system too generous? Are they not interested?

We need to find out what's wrong. If we don't we'll end up with millions more immigrants working( but overwhelming our NHS,schools and housing) and starting to ask, as a massive pressure group, 'Why are we all working our butts off to keep all these UK locals at home? What's being done about it?'

Then the fun could start!

Re: The Tories
 

They seemingly are working fer less cost to the company is what i understand, Also if they drive to work, its 12 months before they have to pay road tax in our country (Fact) Why should that be?:confused: Our young uns pay from day1. or do these foreign driven cars not put wear and tear on our roads fer 12 months?:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

And do they have insurance. I have to say I didn't know that cashy, its a sodding joke:mad:

Re: The Tories
 

Come on, cashman. They're not uprooting themselves and coming all this way to save one years road tax! They're coming because there's work here which pays at a level they're happy with. If they are why aren't our people? Were our people offered these jobs at the Poles rate and refused them ? Or didn't they even get the chance-and if not why not? That's what bothers me.

Re: The Tories
 

I didn't say that, but never mind twist things how yeh want.:rolleyes: n No our people were not offered the job at the same rate as poles whatever that was i do not know, My nephew was told straight no job available this year were giving em to poles, He had worked yon approx 5 years n they had happily taken him back before, I posted the fact on here at the time, gawd knows which thread it was. I mentioned the road tax cos its another simple fact how aliens are getting a better deal than our own people.Unless things like this work business happen to one of yer family, Then people are very unlikely to know about whats really going on, Whoever coined "Ignorance Is Bliss" got it bang on.

Re: The Tories
 

express gifts set up an employment agency in poland which probably took a deposit for you to register,then they bought a whole load of houses rented them out to about six at a time charging them on average rent at £100 a week .so thats £600 a week for one house. thats what one of my polish neighbors told me when i lived in accy.

Re: The Tories
 

There was actually some living on our street doing that. so yer neighbours were not far off the mark. Many people really have No Idea whats going on.n probably choose not to believe or bother if it dont effect them.

Re: The Tories
 

Now that could explain a lot! On that basis Cashmans nephew and the others wouldn't have a chance.
That's one sharp company-ending up with the workers almost paying you to work for you! It stinks but it won't be illegal- just a caring company helping its new workers find accommodation.

You're right, cashman, 'Ignorance is Bliss', our generation were very lucky on the whole- jobs were easy to find and often for life. I came close a couple of times but scraped through. I don't know how I'd have coped with seeing all the things I'd worked for melt away.

But the questions I raised still stand, if you put on one side the behaviour of companies like Express.

Edit- hadn't seen cashmans last post when I did this one.

Re: The Tories
 

Seems like a whole bunch of folks have forgotten how a healthy consumer economy and the multiplier effect work .... the nips and the kruats seem to have gotten it right, and with a few occasional glitches, mainly the result of many other economies screwing up, they do damn well. A helluva a lot better than the allies who kicked their asses in the War. Pay a man a decent wage ... oops, forgot about women again:o ... and she will spend about 90% of it ... on houses, appliances, cars, food etc. The stores wouldn't be closing ... houses wouldn't be deteriorating ... but no, British businessmen, and their counterparts over here and in the US would rather move jobs to places where labor is cheap, and to hell with the economy in their own country. The only allegiance they acknowledge is to themselves ... greedy, senseless bastards who look only at the short term. You can't have a healthy economy without a well-paid working class (these are the folks who pay taxes). You can't have a strong retail sector if the only work available is at the burger flipping level, or if you import foreign workers prepared to work for peanuts. Classical economics ain't rocket science; it's common sense.

Re: The Tories
 

soz mate i must have skipped apage i thought it wa sbeen hinted at people in the uk were lazy and thats why the poles and other immigrants find work so easy to find

mind you regarding express gifts one lad got fired for not looking interested in his work.He was sweeping up because it was quiet

i sort of got fired because when i asked for time off to attend my grandfathers funeral i was told if i attended the funeral i would be fired.Needless to say the arsehole fell on his arse but i dont recall what caused that to happen .I never went back:)

Re: The Tories
 

my definition of britsh was the best health service in the world,the best postal service in the world ,the best utility services in the world for the country and people,the best railway system in the world,the best transport system in the world buses etc ,the best telecommunications in the world and what happened the tories butchered them up for their mates. ohh i forgot the best search and rescue in the world now theyve privatised them as well.

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If all those organisations had been rubbish....do you think anyone would have wanted to buy them?
And while Eric and Cashy like your post it doesn't define what being british is, because trying to define what being british is, is like trying to describe a blue sky to a blind man.......or describing the taste of cheese without letting someone sample it.

People over the years have misunderstood the British.......and none more than those who tried to bring continental drinking habits to these isles........it doesn't work because the people have a different mind set to the continentals......to understand British...you have to be British.
Humour is different, ideals are different....the great influx of migrants was done to try to dilute this...to change the face of this country........but it was done too quickly and with little thought about how it would change things....for those coming in,and those already here. It was and experiment in social engineering. It hasn't improved the country. It has caused resentment in communities, made people feel like strangers in their own land....and it could turn out to be like Frankensteins monster.(Oh, and before anyone uses the rascism card - I'm saying what many people feel, but don't like to say for fear of being called racist...it isn't being racist.....it is being nationalist).

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In that case why didn't Tony and Gordon re-nationalise them then they had enough time, and certainly borrowed enough money to squander on other useless things, just a thought:rolleyes:

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Cos has been said many times there all the ruddy same.:rolleyes:

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Well not really, reminds me of a little tale from the 60s cashy, Herald goes in the loo in the Commons and Ted Teeth is in there, Herald stands in the next stall, looks at Ted and says "Out there we're opposite Ted, but in here we all equal, we all hold our own" Ted says to Herald "You sod off every time you see something big you nationalise it:D

Re: The Tories
 

Just seen a picture of that arrogant sod "Osbourne" Whilst he has cut disabled benefits, he was parking in a disabled space, despite being loads of empty spaces within yards of it.:rolleyes: Were really all in this together are we not.:rolleyes:

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Now Cashy, don't ask daft questions...especially those to which you know the answer :)

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Oh we know the answer, pity jaysay n the like don't.;):D

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Ah..yes the bad old days of nationalisation....

When there was and electric and gas board showroom in every town, where you could pay your bills, get complaints sorted out and everyone paid the same for each therm we used..terrible wasn't it

In a country of abundant rainfall, we had reservoirs looked after by a water board, no droughts or hosepipe bans every time the sun shone, and a water supply we paid pennies for...sheesh dunno how we managed

Plenty of social housing, plenty of jobs

Buses liveried to the town they came from, smart drivers and conductors, inspectors to complain to, reasonable fares and safe buses. Reasonably priced train services

A coal industry and a steel industry

Search and rescue that was the envy of the world, an army with equipment, a navy with ships and an airforce with planes.......

BUT......

Then in the Shire Year of 1979, the Dark Lady who had been resting in the misty mountains of Grantham captured the palace of Westminster and sent forth her black riders led by the necromancer king, who some may know as Geoffrey of Howe, to herald the age of the banker. And lo..did these bankers stop building houses, closed schools and sold off all that was good to the people from across the great ocean. The bankers created much gold for themselves and built themselves the city of Yuppie. Here they did nothing all day but wave pieces of paper at each other and make strange gestures with their hands and arms.

The people of the Shire suffered and begged for work only to be told to get on their bikes, whilst the people of Yuppie rode around in Ferraris and Maseratis armed with a filofax and a communication device that looked like a black brick with an aerial.

The greed of the bankers knew no bounds, the power of the Dark Lady waned, and a man from Sedgefield promised the Shire folk many things, and thus began the 13 years of Grima Wormtongue. He broke his pledges to the folk of the Shire, giving the bankers all that they asked and then making war with many other lands because Saruman the Stupid of Texas told him to. The bankers grew fat, so fat that they did not even check they had enough gold to cover all the pieces of paper they were waving around at each other.

One day, in the town of Northern Rock, one of the Shire farmers forgot to put his money in the bank. This caused great consternation, the bank at Northern Rock did not now have the money it owed to the great bank in the south. The bank in the south grew worried because it could not allow the bankers to wave papers if the shire folk weren't giving them their money to play with. It decided to make an example of the bankers of Northern Rock for being stupid and make them close their doors. But they pleaded, begged and cried so much, that the apprentice of Grima came down from a land in the north called Scotland, he decided to buy the bank using even more of the Shire peoples money and give the bankers in Northern Rock a nice fat bundle of paper to wave at each other, the apprentice of Grima called this bundle of paper a 'bone us'. He told the Shire people that they were 'share holders', but would not get any money for being 'share holders' because the money was needed for the bankers 'bone us'.

It is prophesised that one day, a great light will shine on the Shire, the bankers will wither and jobs, houses, schools and happiness will return to the Shire, but most Shire people think that this is something called a 'con spear I see thee or he' written by someone called the Head Military Band.

Wayy..wayyyy too much time on my hands today :p:p

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See what i mean MargaretP, They will never change no matter how many times they say Camerons useless or they dont like him.:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

Put a bottle of beer in one hand ... a glass in the other ... pour ... enjoy ... repeat as often as you feel necessary.:thepint:... and forget about politics for a while.;) Me ... I'm going to twist up a couple, grab a six pack of Bomber, and head down to the lake to do a little mudcatting, and forget about the bs going on in Ottawa, Washington, Westminster and other centers of crime without punishment:rolleyes: Cheers, eh:theband: