Re: The Tories
 

Those two heads(Eds)wouldn't make one decent proper head(Ed) John.

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There's none so blind as those who just refuse to see cashy:rolleyes:

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these tories are really the low of the low ,using dirty tricks to shut childrens hospitals:eek: very very suspicous:(

Re: The Tories
 

Which closures are you talking about?

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leeds for one:confused:

Re: The Tories
 

The hospital in Leeds has only closed to cases where Congenital Heart Surgery was being performed........and this is for safety reasons( apparently there have been a higher rate of child deaths here and this is currently under investigation) Other services for children are not affected.......but of course while this is a loss for families who would have had their children treated there.........it is NOTHING to do with the government, and everything to do with the safety of children, yet you feel the need to criticise........on something else you appear to know very little about.

Re: The Tories
 

the figures they were using were experimental figures.they changed the way they were collecting figures.the timing after the court case was won is very suspicious .BBC News - Child heart surgery at Leeds had to stop, says NHS boss .even the local tory mp is questioning it now.

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Do me a favour, please get your facts right

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Its a very very sad person who tries to score political points involving the medical safety of children, you really are a sick piece work:mad:

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If he's sick, maybe he should go to A and E in Burnley.....oh hold on its shut, it was closed by the last Labour Government.

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Shocking positively shocking BO:rolleyes:

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nope the tories are the only ones implementing pain on the disabled and vulnerable to make a quick buck for their mates.the truth hurts im not the only one to have their suspicions aroused even a tory mp has his reservations. the truth will come out just like hillsborough did.this is not political points scoring this is the truth and everybody knows it. you cant defend the indefensible .

Re: The Tories
 

They aren't attacking the disabled and the vulnerable (where have you cut and pasted this from, vulnerable spelt right:rolleyes:)they are trying to sort the wheat from the chaff, to hear you and your lackeys every case is genuine, and fully entitled to everything they get, only a fool believes that, mind you you've proved that time and time again. You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the bum. There are about £5 billions worth of benefit Fraud every year yet to hear you talk this is quite acceptable, if there was no fraud then the truly disabled would get more

Re: The Tories
 

Who has? Tell 'em to use Rightguard!

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Even that won't get rid of the nasty whiff of C'mon Wyn:D

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But is still stands that government did not close Leed Children's Heart surgery department becuase of political reasons....you would just like us to think it did....and as for the way of collecting figures....all political parties have fudged issues, bamboozled the electorate, by changing either the way stats are collected or the way they are interpreted, or the criteria for collection...so there is nothing new in that ploy.

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shusssh Margaret C'mon only became interested in politics on May 1st 2010 he was just oblivious to the all issue prior to that:rolleyes:

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there may be a clue as to what was amiss when a spokeswoman being interviewed said that the consultants were comparatively "inexperienced"

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I don't place a lot of value on statistics.......because they are dependent on why they are being collected, who is doing the collection, what the criteria for inclusion/exclusion is, and how they are collated and interpreted.

Some centres of excellence will have higher death rates because they take on cases that other surgeons won't touch because they are too complicated....these people would die if they didn't get the surgery...but if that happened then they would not appear in statistics for surgery.

I don't think it does any good to enlighten C'mon, he sees governmental meddling in everything....oh, except he was blind whilst the last government were in power(well, apart from one post about the post office).

Re: The Tories
 

saving money theyre having a laugh:D Welfare Reform Is Costing A Fortune IDS Admits ? And It?s Barely Even Begun | the void

Re: The Tories
 

You are such a clown there are always costs to change anything, it cost a fortune when your little Darling did away with the 10p rate of income tax too:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

Yes they are attacking the disabled and vulnerable, if the people they are causing suffering to were in a court of law they would be innocent until proven guilty, you and your lots attitude is bunch them all together if they are breathing they are guilty.

Aren't you glad that your 20 years of scrounging are over? you are happily retired.

(I don't actually think you scrounged for 20 years, you were a genuine case, there are several thousand genuine cases that deserve what you got, but they are being given grief instead),

This new system is wrong, the saying is supposed to be, 'we're all in it together', NOT lets blame the vulnerable as good Tories traditional would.

:mad:

Re: The Tories
 

Less...now come on...'all in it together'...'Never had it so good'....you know it is politician-speak for 'I'm alright, bu88er you lot'.
Sound bites...meant to divert attention from whatever the boys at the POW don't want us to see...or think we might not understand.
We don't need to buy gas from abroad we have a house of parliament that produces enough of the stuff for all of us to stay warm into the next century...if only we had somewhere to put it!

Lots and lot of words but no blooming action.

Re: The Tories
 

Am I right thinking I read that the last Labour Government started the ball rolling on this privatisation?

Re: The Tories
 

nope maggies friends started up companies to tender ,passed laws stole the families jewels etc and we are paying for it now.eastern railways were nationalised not so long ago and gave the taxpayers £620 ,000,000 with £40 million in new stock.if thats not good value for taxpayers what is.it shows its just ideology.like the welfare bill they give private firms billions of pounds only for them to show it would have been better value for money to let the jcp do the work Delivering public services: the mystique of the private sector | ToUChstone blog: A public policy blog from the TUC

Re: The Tories
 

I was asking about the search and rescue privatisation

Re: The Tories
 

Nope..the tories started the privatisation ball rolling long before the last shower of muppets...but this isn't a blame game..yes the last lot couldn't organise the proverbial in a brewery but neither can this bunch of buffoons.

Using the 13 year argument is becoming tedious, we all know that Blair, Brown and the associated spin doctors like that dingle Campbell totally mismanaged the running of the country...but this current mish-mash coalition of numpties are turning the screw so tight they are stripping the thread.

I think most of us agree that the last Labour government sucked...and that this lot are no better...and that current Labour policies are offering us nothing new or radical...UKIP are a one trick pony..but if they put up a candidate, my kiss is going in their box because the rest of them need to realise that the electorate have had enough of career politicians, stupid one upmanship games and their total apathy to voters wishes until election time!!

Re: The Tories
 

You keep banging on about this Less, there are thousands of people on benefits who quite frankly shouldn't be on benefits, dole yes sickness benefits no, but sickness benefit opens all the doors. The trouble is all governments of any colour know this but until now nobody has dared to do anything about it, £1 in every £3 spent by government is on some kind of benefit or another and is escalating fast, so you suggest we should just do nothing at all just sit back don't ask questions and everything's right with the world. The average family income is around £26,000 a year, this is now a ceiling on what can be claimed on benefit, but this is wrong, I'm sure you know at least one person who is pulling a fast one, the question is should they be allowed to get away with it or not, you seem to think they should:mad:

Re: The Tories
 

Whilst I agree in principle the problem with this strategy is that it would be the majority of thinking voters that vote for UKIP and they would, in all probability, be tory voters. If that happens then it is more than likely that we would have another Labour Government. Should that happen we would be back into borrow and spend mode and 5 years further on we would be back into a drastic recovery situation once again with no money left in the pot.

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Barrie...I think you could have a point there.The politicians laugh at the electorate.
The only thing they really know how to do is talk.......and they say things that they think the electorate want to hear.

All this bullshine about immigrant......about making sure they do not get benefits, that they pay for their healthcare.......who really believes that this government can get away with that while we are still shackled to the moneypit that is the EU....and another top politician is saying that we cannot ditch the EU human rights legislation.

They aren't all singing from the same hymn sheet, but then, they aren't even in the same church....how can they be, when the current government is like a 'push me pull you'?
The allegiance of all current politicians is not to the electorate....they might tell you that 'we are all in it together'....but what they are in, is a totally different situation to the rest of us.

There needs to be some kind of a revolution...and I'm not talking violence here, I am talking of a political revolution.....the people taking back the power.

I fear I will not see it in my lifetime, there are too many people who do not take any responsibility for their own lives....they are all waiting for the government to do it for them,it is never their fault...and while we vote for any of this shower of Fisons they will always have someone to blame(us) and they will always be rolling in the money(ours).

Re: The Tories
 

Ya Barrie, Labour had the cheek to send Leam Bern on the Breakfast News this morning, he didn't seem to like it when Bill Turnbull reminded him about the note he left on his desk went Labour were kick out in 2010 "There's no money left we've spent it all" Labour always have the answers in opposition but fall a long, long way short in office

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That is true of all parties when in opposition...they can say what they want it won't ever be tested......because when they do come to power, how many times do they shift the legislation that was decried by them when they were in opposition?

Re: The Tories
 

Have serious doubts about this statement, reason being i know more Lab voters than Tory, that are likely to vote U.K.I.P. Also yer inference is labour voters are stupid.:(

Re: The Tories
 

Yes, and I'll keep banging on about a mean system that attacks the vulnerable.
And yes, I will keep mentioning the fact that you had 20 years of assistance that you consider no-one else should be given. So either give it all back or allow other genuine cases the same care that was given to you.

Re: The Tories
 

The genuine cases will STILL get the care they need its the feckless that feign illness that need to be weeded out, but you seem to think its okay just let um carry on and doing nout about it. I've never had any problem people claiming when they are entitled to health benefits I've even helped people to fill out the forms, but when you see people only using walking sticks and wheelchairs when going to the DHSS offices or the doctors, there's something not quite right, yet you think nothing should be done:confused:

Re: The Tories
 

Yer talking utter balls yon n yeh damn well know it.:( we all know the twisters need rooting out, thats beyond question. Yer defending the indefensible saying that, n if yeh honestly believe thats happening, i never had yeh down as stupid.:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

It is up to you whether you get it wrong by trying to read between the lines. I know quite a few Labour supporters who would vote Labour even if a donkey was the candidate - no slur on DinG intended

Re: The Tories
 

Theres those people in both party's, only a fool would think otherwise.:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

Well just how do they go about sorting the cheats out then, hopping they just quit on there own account, I see a guy every day uses a walking stick, he can't remember which hand to use it in, sticks it under his arm while he carries his heavy shopping in from his mobility car, before he takes the dog for an half an hour walk. The previous Government threatened to reform the benefit system, unfortunately they didn't manage to get round to it, so what do we do carry on with a system which isn't fit for purpose, or do something about it.

Re: The Tories
 

So yeh obviously agree wi the genuine suffering as long as it sorts out the twisters, I expected better from you.:(

Re: The Tories
 

that's not the case and you know it, your saying that everybody has had their benefits stopped that we now have a benefit free country were nobody gets sod all, sorry you know that isn't so, not even close, the welfare bill is over £100 billion and has been rising at a great rate of knots that ain't sustainable in any context, what didn't help the situation was the open door policy of the last government, like I've said before people coming here should be able to support themselves not make their way to the nearest DHSS office, if they come from within the EU they should only be entitled to the same benefits payable in there home country and they should get the bill for it from us, but until we pull out of the EU nothings going to happen

Re: The Tories
 

to be fair Cashy, I don't think that is what he said.
It is obvious that there are people who should not be on the incapacity/invalidity benefit because when it was proposed that they attend medical interviews many of them voluntarily gave up the benefit in favour of a lower paid benefit...and some even opted to find work........and yes...before you tell me that these medical interviews are unkind, unfair or whatever label you want to hang on them........we cannot keep paying those who could work(in some capacity) to stay at home.

One of my friends is a midwife in Rochdale...her caseload includes families on one of the estates where only a minority work...so people like us....you and me Cashy, are paying for them to stay at home.
I do not mind giving those in genuine need a helping hand...but we, in this country seem to give to everybody, whether they have paid into the pot or not.
Surely this cannot be good fiscal sense...and before you tell me it is not the claimants fault, it is the fault of the system.....I know.
governments in the past have just tinkered with the edges of the problem...none of them have had the gonads to sort it out because it isn't a vote winner .
The whole system needs to be reformed........benefits should not be a way of life, but they should be a helping hand to tide you over the tough times...but then those claiming benefits must take some responsibility for being honest too(or is that just expecting too much).

Re: The Tories
 

If you read this BBC news story it says that the last Labour Government started the search and rescue privatisation BBC News - Bristow Group to take over UK search and rescue from RAF

Re: The Tories
 

How else am i supposed to interpret it? I have said many times the twisters need sorting n i am also well aware of a disabled child, who,s mam has been told aint disabled end of story,:mad: n i am am damn sure jaysay knows who n what i am referring too.

Re: The Tories
 

I don't know how you are supposed to interpret it Cashy, I can only say how I interpeted it........but for every one of those who steal benefit(because they are being dishonest about their capabilities) when they should not have it, there are those who do need it and are having it stolen from them by those who would live off the earnings of others. It is the system which is at fault.......so the system needs to be changed. This has long been recognised, but no party has the guts to do it

What are the solutions? The solutions are that a root and branch reform is needed...how that is done - well, I don't know. Except, I do know that those who have paid nothing in should be severely limited on what they can claim.

People are keen on their rights, but less keen on their responsibilities.

Was there the same welfare state when you and I were growing up Cashy......NO.
Were times tough back then too....YES.
And I'm not saying because I lived through it, that others must do so too...all I am saying, is that it cannot be right for those on benefits to be better off than those who are working........and I know that some people on benefits are in genuine need...they will continue to be so until the whole sorry mess is sorted out.

Re: The Tories
 

Not at all, yer not getting what i'm saying, I'm saying quite clearly, some people who "Are Not" on benefits, and are genuine, damn well should be.

Re: The Tories
 

Cashy, I do get what you are saying...and I am saying that these people are being robbed by those who are on benefits and should not be(for whatever reason) but that essentially it isn't their fault...it is the fault of the system, and the different political parties who encouraged them to claim benefits so that the unemployment figures looked better.

Re: The Tories
 

We will have to disagree, they are being robbed by those barstewards that are rewarding the bankers n millionaires, not rocket science, benefit scroungers are a subject that makes most folks blood boil, n thats what these gets are counting on n to me it seems to working.

Re: The Tories
 

It's a cop out to say it's the system, as if the "system" had an independent existence. It's the fault of the mean spirited, hard hearted, poor-hating, right to life, anti-gay, right-wing assholes who are running the system. We have tories too. But ours are kept more or less in line because they realize that Canadian voters have already destroyed one conservative party, and that, if they are pushed, they will obliterate the one we have now.

And you mentioned that we had it hard when we were young. Damn right we did. But that's because we had spent our national treasure, and thousands of gallons of blood fighting the krauts. We had rationing not to balance the budget, but because Britain had spent all it had fighting two wars. Not to forget that much of the merchant navy was gathering barnacles at the bottom of the Atlantic. This is not an anti-square head rant, by the way. More power to the Germans for realizing that a vibrant economy has to be based on making stuff, and supplying Germans with well-paid, secure(ish) jobs so that they could buy houses, cars, etc. etc. etc. Lots of folks, no doubt, are out of work over in the land of Uk because those kinds of jobs are no longer there. What the hell kind of economy can you have if 30% of it is in the City of London? I'm willing to bet that if the jobs were there, folks would be working.

Re: The Tories
 

No Eric it isn't a cop out at all....if a system allows for fraud...doesn't police those who are claiming, then you cannot blame the claimants for taking advantage of what is on offer.
What would be your solution to the problem if you think it isn't the system?


And I agree with your observations on why we were poor(and there wasn't the same welfare to support us back then)........the fact is that we don't make things anymore.......we sold our manufacturing to other countries who could do the job for much less....and when you are buying something do you buy Canadian, if you can buy something that is just as good, but not made in your own country?
Some people might choose a home manufactured product, but many do not have the luxury of choice...they are driven by the economics of what is affordable...and most of that is from China.

Re: The Tories
 

there goes the national minimum wage just as I predicted Minimum wage could be frozen or cut if it starts to cost jobs or damage economy, Government suggests - Telegraph watch the Europeans undercut everybody so much for having to pay for your mortgage, the tories are really the enemy from within.

Re: The Tories
 

As this is a thread about tories, I think it's worthwhile pointing out that even if no one were screwing the welfare system, tories would attack it. And if the NHS were working perfectly, tories would try to undermine it and shift health care to the private sector (that would be to their cronies in the "health care for profit" industry).

The question of why other countries can "do the job for much less" is a whole 'nother issue ... starvation wages, no protection for workers, long hours ... even Nike had the decency to be a little embarassed. And who moved the industry? I would suggest tory businessmen who resented having to pay a decent living wage to their workers ... greedy bastards who don't give a flying you-know-what about the damage they are doing to their country, as long as their company profits and personal wealth go up, and up ......

And, yes, I do buy Canadian whenever possible ... we don't grow too many pineapples in the Yukon;):D I drive a GM car ... made in Oshawa, ON. I'm having a glass of Canadian wine from Prince Edward County. I have a Blackberry. Of course, our economies are different. We have a wealth of natural resources. We also have a free trade agreement with the world's largest economy. Which is nothing like the EU garbage you have. Whatever ... for tories, the state of the economy is largely irrelevant ... they behave like tories ... or like assholes, which is the same thing.

Re: The Tories
 

By the way, I'm aware that some .... maybe many ... are screwing THE SYSTEM out of millions of bucks. They are welfare bums. But let's not forget about the corporate welfare bums.

Pushed to the Left and Loving It: The Corporate Welfare State vs the Social Welfare State

And while the tories crusade against the little guys who are costing you, and us, millions, the rich use tax havens to avoid paying billions in taxes. Is no one po'd at this? Some poor bitch on Tyneside, with a grade 4 education, pushing out sprogs on a regular basis, makes the headlines when she fiddles an extra few hundred bucks from welfare. Meanwhile, wealthy jerkoffs are sending boatloads of cash to the Grand Cayman Islands. Maybe it's legal ... but it stinks to high heaven. A company takes millions in tax breaks and "incentives" and still moves its operations overseas. And what do the tories do about this ... Canadian tories brag about having one of the lowest rates of corporate tax in the world. The next day they announce they are cutting funding for daycare.:rolleyes: Let's get a little perspective happenin' here folks.

Re: The Tories
 

Perspective, thats a good un Eric!! if it aint in daily rags etc, how can some comprehend?

Re: The Tories
 

Eric....you prove my point for me very nicely.
The fact that corporations can avoid paying their social dues and do it legally is also down to the system.
In the recent budget it was said that government would name and shame these businesses...but why do that? They have the power to close the loopholes that let the big flies break through....while the little flies(us pensioners) get intimidating letters demanding the return of money to the taxman that we didn't know we owed(because they got their calculations wrong - and we are supposed to be able to spot this, but they couldn't).

It appears to me that no-one has a social conscience anymore.

As for countries doing the job for less.......we exported the jobs to them (Do you remember the Queens Award to Industry for Export?)....they have lower overheads
it cost less to live in some of those countries.......and NO, I do not condone the slave like working conditions....but what can you do about them(Many of us do not have the luxury to be able to afford home produced goods...that is if you can find them)...we have enough problems to solve in this country(not that our 'Honourable MP's seem to want to apply themselves to these).

Perspective is a great thing Eric...and because you live so far away from the problems here...you have it in spades.

Re: The Tories
 

The system has always been wrong/corrupt Margaret, no doubt, but to me the fact remains,those running the system (Whichever Party) refuse to correct or alter things. So therefore those greedy pigs are to blame.

Re: The Tories
 

I do and I've said that's wrong, but how do you get rind of the bogus claimers and its not just the odd one either cashy, the problem is successive governments have done nothing about this trend towards a Benefit culture society were it pays more on benefits than it does working, that can't be right, there are many people who are quite happy to stick their hand out every week than even trying to find work. When you have a genuine long term illness, and you see people who you know have sod all wrong with um it wrankles.

Re: The Tories
 

but it doesnt mean making people work for a pittance right.

Re: The Tories
 

Certainly not by supporting a scheme that punishes the genuine.:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

You are at total prat why don't you throw the towel in, you gave up making sense ages ago, they'll be working for more now than three years ago clown, there is a minimum wage, you know that thing Labour said the Tories would abolish

Re: The Tories
 

Ideas please then, it would be appreciated;)

Re: The Tories
 

I aint in government nor well rewarded fer me ideas, Expecting me to tell yeh, is a typical Tory Cop Out.:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

Typical labour mon, criticism without answers ;)

Re: The Tories
 

getting angry because everything im predicting with the tories is comming true.no way are they working for more than they were 3 years ago. utilities prices :20% rise inflation 2% rise vat 20% rise your in a dream world.the tories record here we go lol

triple aaa rating lost, unemployment rising ,input down. ha ha now they are all clambering to cover up all their 2nd and 3rd banking jobs with the new ruling they have to reveal their other work. yes who forced this rule through before the last election.yes gordon brown.

Re: The Tories
 

And smug old Ian Duncan Smith says he could live off £7-50 a day if he had too.:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

What is the point of getting angry at something over which, we have no control?
You just keep patting yourself on the back, and congratulating yourself for your clear forsight.......but don't forget that you mentioned NOT ONE WORD of how we got to this parlous fiscal state while those mauve boys were running the country into the ground...spending money that we didn't have.

No...I'm not angry...there is no point to it...none whatsoever, because democracy is just a mirage...an illusion to allow us to think we have some say in our future.

Re: The Tories
 

You are right...but in the past, we the little mushrooms, were fed on Fisons and kept in the dark.
We are more informed now, but we have to realise that information can be used in one of two ways...to help us or to divide us...and while we are fightint one another we have no sense of direction or purpose to fight those who are doing the wrong thing, and are supposed to be governing us...have the countries best interests at heart.
The ground was lost when we linked up to the iniquitous EEC(now the EU).

Re: The Tories
 

Nothing you say has ever come true, it can't, you never say anything, you cut and past a lot but as for meaningful input your clueless, and ignorant in the bargain, now there's a good chap toddle of and have another Bells, make ya feel better;)

Re: The Tories
 

And some poor suckers think there is a point to it.:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

Correct the famous "sorry there's no money left we've spent it all" note says it all for me.

Re: The Tories
 

Cashy every circus has a clown, I actually saw him say that, think the word I use started with a P and ended with a K, By the way I've actually met this bloke and ended up singing a Shania Twain number, he don't impress me much;)

Re: The Tories
 

The same guy, who left the note was representing Labour on Breakfast TV on Saturday, he started shuffling in his chair when the interviewer asked him about the not, but not to worry Mr ED has all his ducks in a line he's going to help save a public sauna in Nelson, that should keep him busy for a while:rolleyes:

Re: The Tories
 

This is the problem, those with any ideas are not in the place to make them work...and those with no idea are in the POW...smugly watching, while we all struggle.

I have some ideas.
1) stop paying people who have not paid into the system.
2) Stop sending money abroad as foreign aid to support countries who use the money in nefarious ways
3) Any aid money that is given, is to be spent on services/products that originate in the UK.
4) stop paying the vast sums of money into the EU.
5) close the porous Border - count people in and count them out.
6)Foreign criminals deported once they are pronounced guilty and put on a plane back to where they came from.....no messing, no appeals.
7) close the tax loopholes that allow corporations to legally dodge paying their dues here - if they don't like it show them the door. the niche in the market that they leave can be taken up by a British company.
8) Stop paying benefits to the parents of children who do not even reside in this country.
9) cut red tape for businesses.
10) Penalise the banks who do not lend(providing that they have first sought out customers who are not going to default)

I'm sure some of you could think of more ...and probably better ones too.....but those are mine.

Re: The Tories
 

Yeh but all the money people will make a damn site less n also see the possibility of losing votes, so its as likely to happen as the pope turning Muslim.

Re: The Tories
 

how can you implement all these things when theyve paid half the workforce off :confused::confused: i know ,pay billions to private firms who cant do the job.

Re: The Tories
 

In essence, that is part of the problem...people are too ready to pick holes in any solution provided.
I used to have a boss who said 'OK...bring me a problem, but bring me your solution to it as well'
There is always someone who is going to say 'that will never work' and do you know what? It doesn't work, because no-one wants to give it a try....no-one wants to own the problem, or look at the component parts.

There needs to be a different government in power...one that is made up of all the parties who have seats in parliament....then perhaps we can get rid of the playground attitude that many politicians seem to have......the blaming and the throwing of mud...they should all be made to put their shoulder to the wheel and work through a list of issues until we get on our feet again......work together......not create this push me, pull you animal, that is, current politics.

Re: The Tories
 

What is your plan for those in 1 who have never paid into the system? Will you leave them to starve to death on the street?

Re: The Tories
 

What would you do with them Neil?

Re: The Tories
 

Surely you have heard the saying 'for every solution there's a problem'.

Re: The Tories
 

Thats simple if they are British help em if it is deserved, if they aint british, don't let the beggars in, in the first place.

Re: The Tories
 

A bottle of cheap plonk every day sat on a park bench- you could survive for one week on that.
After that- well, it might get difficult.

Re: The Tories
 

They are already here though so what would you do?

How would you like to define British?

Re: The Tories
 

No idea, thats why I am not a politician.

Its ok saying don't give them money if they have never paid into the system but we have generations of people who have never worked.

Not giving them any money as you said would mean certain death and a massive increase in crime - is that what you want?

Re: The Tories
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ_W...e_gdata_player

This is so bad its untrue

Re: The Tories
 

A british citizen. simple. If they deserve help through no fault of own then give em help. if they don't then let em starve, Wouldn't mind betting not many would choose that route. The do-gooders won't like it, but i don't really give a toss fer those people.

Re: The Tories
 

Well Neil, I think you are probably too young to remember the UK before the welfare state became a way of life...in fact I know you are!
I remember there being very little help for people but folks had to manage with what they had.
You didn't go for a pint in the pub if you had no bread in the pantry...you didn't go to the pictures if the rent man was due.
We have bred a generation of people who see it as their right to draw benefits...but with rights go responsibilities...these are conveniently overlooked or not considered.
I am not saying that all benefit claimants are scroungers....but it is true to say that there a re pockets in this country where no-one works...or seems to want to work.
Now.....the current benefit bill is 220 billion a year...this has to come from somewhere.........where do want this money to be taken from?

As for your question.....No I wouldn't let them starve on the streets(you must really think I am a heartlesws beast), but they would not get the kind of handouts that they get now...and anyone coming into the country would have to prove they could sustain themselves for 2 years or they would be shown the door...if after 2 years of living off their own resources they had not got a job, or a home they would lose their right to residency.

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The real heartless people margaret, are those in Power who are letting genuine people suffer to make figures etc look good n win brownie points off the numbskull's that buy it.;)

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Cashy, I have been there......been poor.....my father was out of work and ill for years after he was demobbed...we got nothing from the welfare state.
And I do not mean for people of today to suffer the same things just because I did, but you and I both know that poverty...real poverty (where you have nothing in the cupboard to eat) steels your character and makes you rely on no-one but yourself.

The benefit cap is going to be set at £26,000 now I don't know about you, but I do not get anywhere near that, and I didn't get that kind of money when I was working either.

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I have no objection at all to a cap, my objection is simple.;)

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Does that apply to anyone in the world/EU or just those that are here now?
How do you define those that "deserve help through no fault of own"

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I knew I always liked you :D

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11) Stop Blaming People That Honestly Need Benefits and pick Only On The Dishonest!
:mad:

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Well if yeh can't define that yer thick.:D

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Less....there is no need to shout, and where I have I blamed the people who need benefits?(unless, of course, you consider those who come here purely to claim benefits here rather than in their own country and then live as cheaply as possible and send those benefits home - boosting their economy...and those who claim for children who do not even live here....you think that is right?)
I have stated quite clearly that benefits are a helping hand, but should not be seen as a way of life which is what some claimants seem to assume.

How do you sort out the dishonest if there is no auditing/overseeing/ control of the benefits system?

The benefits system need an overhaul...a reform, but everyone who is on benefits, for whatever reason has a vested interest......and everyone thinks their case is special and should not be touched, but no-one considers where the money to pay these benefits is coming from...and if you speak your mind, you are seen to bashing the poor, the vulnerable and the disabled.
So the result of this is that we keep on keeping on, and the bill gets bigger...eventually the pot will run out and then no-one will get anything. The poor, the disabled, the vulnerable will all be in the same boat....not a pot to pee in.


When that happens, there will be people saying why didn't we sort it out sooner?
The reason is simple........it wins no votes.....in fact it loses votes

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Like Cashy...I say it as I see it......and often what I am saying, others are thinking but are too shy/cautious/kind/generous to put it into words

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I was asking for your definition. Its easy to say give it to them that need it, we all agree with that. What's hard is writing a definition that can then be applied to everyone

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It shouldn't be hard on the money M.P.s are on.

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Flogging through these posts it appears everyone agrees something needed to be done and I can't see how anyone can disagree with the bulk of Margaret's post 2773.
The argument is how it should be done and whether what is being done is fair.

I was brought up to believe 'God helps them who help themselves' and welfare was for those who couldn't. Things have gone way beyond that now.

That saying made me a Tory(wash your mouth out!) but the way this government are actioning and selling their attempts to reform make me despair.

And to cut the 50 pence tax at this time- talk about timing! Osbourne says it raised little income- does he think the millionares will bring all their money back from offshore because they'll only pay 45 pence tax? Of course he doesn't. Does he think we believe him-does he care?

IDS on £57/week- my joke about him lasting a week on a bottle of plonk a day and a park bench was wrong- he probably spends more than that on one bottle-he'd be off to Maundy Grange after a day.

We have a government of very rich people who are the children of very rich people- I don't think they have a clue how ordinary people live or think. The ideals of fairness, which they say they are trying for, should be vote winners- it's not working that way.

The alternative- a government which would be similarly out of touch and which would throw money we haven't got about like confetti to buy votes.

Perhaps being run by the EU is all that's left to us.

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Any Ideas Less

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Oh Please Gordon....don't bring the EU into it.
Why can't all parties who have MP's in the POW form a different coalition government...something a bit like the war time Cabinet.....concentrate all their efforts on sorting out the unholy mess that all the parties(over time) have got us into, either by their complete lack of action or action of the wrong sort.

A concerted effort, that would give all of them an opportunity to right what has gone wrong...and if they were all in it together there would be none of the schoolyard tactics of 'he did this, they did that'....the hurling blame and insults is neither adult or intelligent, and while they are doing all this hawing and jawing nothing gets done.

I'm heartily sick of living in a country that seems to have so little focus and direction...and believe me, if I were younger I would leave like a shot.